Topics

Electing a new moderator


Gene
 

I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message.  Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags.  I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
 
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees.  I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined.  We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge. 
 
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions.  But this is just not the way to run a list.  If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both.  The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.  
 
Here is what I wrote previously.
 
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception.  If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision.  But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason.  If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
 
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy.  There are good reasons for this.  This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration.  There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way.  If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote.  But this is a list to discuss NVDA.  It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader.  (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list.  I know them because they discuss NVDA.  There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.  You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so.  I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election.  I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either. 
 
If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office.  There would be periodic elections.  If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person.  We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision. 
 
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation.  As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies. 
 
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea.  The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices.  That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age.  What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten?  Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't? 
 
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is.  And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.  Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution?  Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them. 
 
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision.  That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision.  But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
 
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter. 
 
Gene

------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
 

Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
 
 
 
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
 
 
 
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
 
 
 
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
 
 
 
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
 
 
 
Cheers,
 
Joseph
 
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
 
 
 
 


Angela Delicata
 

Same happened to me, the post was rejected.
so, I reply again by saying for me Joseph did a great job and am sorry he decided to leave the position to someone else.
Hope the new moderator wil lbe able to fulfil all requirements.
best.
Angela from Italy


Il 22/03/2016 12:17, Gene ha scritto:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough your
self to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html




Laz
 

Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election
matters except to announce the actual election and present information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html



--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


Chris Mullins
 

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Laz [mailto:laz@...]
Sent: 22 March 2016 13:30
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see
that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with another subject line and I shall make one additional
commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds
or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We
joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a
list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please
set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and
make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list,
either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not
democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the
actual election and present information about the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is
an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am
not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change, when the generation in question is probably in its late
twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you
are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some
mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy.
There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where
people have records and attributes that are known to most members
regarding list administration. There a very few active members and
most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to
vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would
be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss
NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership
and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a
leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or
twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination
and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most
list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There
would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone
who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a
democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic
elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an
indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes
decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators
decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there
are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life
to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has
minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was
believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What
about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and
beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience
they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the
age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you
propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't
held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means
if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to
all institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given
and the procedure to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts
on this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice #AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth
Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this
today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die
tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing
leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you
and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to
carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones
who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that
members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new
moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-lett
ing-go-of.html




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


Gwensinfo
 

I concur. It should not be a popularity contest. It needs to be a thoughtful and it judiciously done process by perhaps the list owner.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 11:48 AM, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@...> wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Laz [mailto:laz@...]
Sent: 22 March 2016 13:30
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see
that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with another subject line and I shall make one additional
commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds
or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We
joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a
list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please
set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and
make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list,
either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not
democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the
actual election and present information about the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is
an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am
not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change, when the generation in question is probably in its late
twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you
are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some
mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy.
There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where
people have records and attributes that are known to most members
regarding list administration. There a very few active members and
most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to
vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would
be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss
NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership
and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a
leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or
twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination
and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most
list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There
would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone
who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a
democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic
elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an
indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes
decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators
decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there
are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life
to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has
minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was
believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What
about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and
beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience
they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the
age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you
propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't
held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means
if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to
all institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given
and the procedure to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts
on this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice #AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth
Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this
today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die
tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing
leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you
and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to
carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones
who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that
members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new
moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-lett
ing-go-of.html

--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr






Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hello,

I too agree with Gene. I didn't join this list to vote on who will be the next moderator. I joined in order to discuss NVDA and how programs work with it. I don't have anything more to add.

On 3/22/2016 6:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election
matters except to announce the actual election and present information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html




Antony Stone
 

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of
NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that
the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


 

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Gwensinfo
 

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.






 

Hi Gwen,
Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives
a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps
moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I
think we cannot forget the following principles:
* The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members
should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing
opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the
stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the
benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
* Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people
are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific
calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are
human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the
conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's
podium all day).
* People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many
would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content
(topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are
the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to
retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to
let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a
forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you
are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely
and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of
you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest
gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
select the new moderator.
* This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters.
What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes
from members.
Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand
that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide
more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I
wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I
was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA
translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control
Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on
release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated
in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer),
Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on
creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer),
StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials
(add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote
case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds,
initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA
snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual
add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the
points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB)
via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among
other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers
and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees
of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't* CC
me.






Gwensinfo
 

Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really bad.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:

Hi Gwen,
Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives
a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps
moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I
think we cannot forget the following principles:
* The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members
should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing
opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the
stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the
benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
* Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people
are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific
calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are
human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the
conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's
podium all day).
* People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many
would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content
(topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are
the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to
retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to
let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a
forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you
are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely
and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of
you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest
gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
select the new moderator.
* This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters.
What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes
from members.
Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand
that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide
more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I
wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I
was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA
translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control
Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on
release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated
in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer),
Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on
creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer),
StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials
(add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote
case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds,
initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA
snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual
add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the
points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB)
via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among
other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers
and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees
of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't* CC
me.








 

Hi Gwen,
Back in 2013, I answered a call for volunteers by Nimer who asked around for
people to help him run the list. Later I found out I was the only one who've
volunteered, so Nimer announced that I've taken office. Before that, another
moderator (who is no longer with us) handed the leadership of the list to
Nimer (the associate moderator at that time) after the list experienced
turmoil (for our old friends, you'd remember what I'm talking about).
In a way, the procedure outlined is a slightly modified form of what
happened in the past: when Nimer and I ask for candidates, we're essentially
looking for volunteers who have the right skill set to come forward. For
this reason, the requirements were set high in order to see if anyone who is
serious about this job (no personality game) would show up (so far, we have
one). The only difference is that you'll get a chance to decide also.
However, if people say we should use traditional (appointment-based) method,
then I think we (Nimer and I) should submit to your will (you see, that's
what I mean by letting members dictate the fate and direction of a list).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:53 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were
you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a
moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as
an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting
personalities into it, it could be really bad.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:

Hi Gwen,
Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it
deprives a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right:
petition. Perhaps moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was
a right decision), but I think we cannot forget the following principles:
* The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum
members should participate in making a forum great, and one way is
through voicing opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or
moderators) should be the stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose
of forming a forum is for the benefit of the members within who have come
together for a purpose.
* Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some
people are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have
specific calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators
show they are human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk
around the conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying
the speaker's podium all day).
* People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum.
Many would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is
both content
(topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who
are the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in
soon to retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is
through voting: to let you participate in a decision that'll decide
the overall direction of a forum for years to come, to give you a
sense of pride for the fact that you are an invaluable part of this
forum, to let you express your opinion freely and to remind the new
moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of you. In other
words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest gift (I
think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
select the new moderator.
* This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list
matters.
What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes"
votes from members.
Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can
understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you
could provide more support and help to some of the other focus
projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though
is not the right way to go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee>
wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office,
I
was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in
NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning
Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of
this list).
At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly
add-on
release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series
(updated
in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former
maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer),
GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current
maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10
App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who
wrote
case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown
sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of
third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as
ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce
notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of
the
points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille
(UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which,
among
other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users,
developers
and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the
employees
of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on
the role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to
realise
that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't*
CC
me.








Gwensinfo
 

Asking for volunteers or nominations or whatever you want to call it, is an excellent thing. But I really think that you having been the moderator and the other gentleman that you wished to talk about I can't spell his name have the foresight to know what the position really takes. I think all of us trust your judgment, since you've done such an excellent job.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:

Hi Gwen,
Back in 2013, I answered a call for volunteers by Nimer who asked around for
people to help him run the list. Later I found out I was the only one who've
volunteered, so Nimer announced that I've taken office. Before that, another
moderator (who is no longer with us) handed the leadership of the list to
Nimer (the associate moderator at that time) after the list experienced
turmoil (for our old friends, you'd remember what I'm talking about).
In a way, the procedure outlined is a slightly modified form of what
happened in the past: when Nimer and I ask for candidates, we're essentially
looking for volunteers who have the right skill set to come forward. For
this reason, the requirements were set high in order to see if anyone who is
serious about this job (no personality game) would show up (so far, we have
one). The only difference is that you'll get a chance to decide also.
However, if people say we should use traditional (appointment-based) method,
then I think we (Nimer and I) should submit to your will (you see, that's
what I mean by letting members dictate the fate and direction of a list).
Cheers,
Joseph


-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:53 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were
you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a
moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as
an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting
personalities into it, it could be really bad.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:

Hi Gwen,
Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it
deprives a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right:
petition. Perhaps moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was
a right decision), but I think we cannot forget the following principles:
* The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum
members should participate in making a forum great, and one way is
through voicing opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or
moderators) should be the stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose
of forming a forum is for the benefit of the members within who have come
together for a purpose.
* Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some
people are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have
specific calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators
show they are human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk
around the conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying
the speaker's podium all day).
* People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum.
Many would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is
both content
(topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who
are the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in
soon to retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is
through voting: to let you participate in a decision that'll decide
the overall direction of a forum for years to come, to give you a
sense of pride for the fact that you are an invaluable part of this
forum, to let you express your opinion freely and to remind the new
moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of you. In other
words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest gift (I
think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
select the new moderator.
* This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list
matters.
What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes"
votes from members.
Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can
understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you
could provide more support and help to some of the other focus
projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though
is not the right way to go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee>
wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office,
I
was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in
NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning
Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of
this list).
At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly
add-on
release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series
(updated
in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former
maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer),
GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current
maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10
App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who
wrote
case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown
sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of
third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as
ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce
notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of
the
points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille
(UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which,
among
other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users,
developers
and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the
employees
of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on
the role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to
realise
that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't*
CC
me.






Gene
 

To answer your question, the list has never elected any prior moderator or owner. The list used to be run like a typical list. 
 
I will simply say, since I have already stated my views at length, that it is a complete contradiction to decide for the list that there will be an election and not let the list decide if it wants one in the first place.  To be consistent, we should have an election to determine if the list wants to elect moderators. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gwensinfo
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really bad.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue  "
Anonymous"

> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Gwen,
> Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives
> a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps
> moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I
> think we cannot forget the following principles:
> * The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members
> should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing
> opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the
> stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the
> benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
> * Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people
> are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific
> calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are
> human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the
> conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's
> podium all day).
> * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many
> would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content
> (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are
> the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to
> retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to
> let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a
> forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you
> are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely
> and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of
> you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest
> gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
> partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
> decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
> select the new moderator.
> * This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters.
> What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes
> from members.
> Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
>
> Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand
> that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide
> more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I
> wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.
>
> Gwen and the great Orb
> sent from my iPhone 5s
> "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue  "
> Anonymous"
>
>> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Antony,
>> If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
> history, development and key ideas.
>> To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I
> was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA
> translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control
> Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
> At this time, I am:
>> * Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
>> * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on
> release coordinator.
>> * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated
> in 2015).
>> * Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
> Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer),
> Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on
> creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer),
> StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials
> (add-on creator and maintainer).
>> * The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
>> * NVDA translator (Korean).
>> * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote
> case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
> Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds,
> initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA
> snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual
> add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
>> * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the
> points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB)
> via LibLouis.
>> * Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
> international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
>> * Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among
> other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
>> * Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers
> and supporters of NVDA.
>> Hope this helps.
>> Cheers,
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
>>
>> I have two questions about this:
>>
>> 1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"?  Do you mean the employees
> of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?
>>
>> 2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
> moderator?
>>
>> Antony.
>>
>>> On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:
>>>
>>> I concur with Gene and Laz.  Democratic election is not the way to go.
>>> Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
>>> role.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Chris
>>
>> --
>> "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
> that the job was already taken."
>>
>> - Douglas Adams
>>
>>                                                  Please reply to the
> list;
>>                                                        please *don't* CC
> me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





 

Hi Gene,

Consistency… We’ll do as you correctly pointed out. We may eventually need to set up a subgroup dealing with list policies…

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

 

To answer your question, the list has never elected any prior moderator or owner. The list used to be run like a typical list. 

 

I will simply say, since I have already stated my views at length, that it is a complete contradiction to decide for the list that there will be an election and not let the list decide if it wants one in the first place.  To be consistent, we should have an election to determine if the list wants to elect moderators. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gwensinfo

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

 

Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really bad.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue  "
Anonymous"

> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Gwen,
> Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives
> a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps
> moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I
> think we cannot forget the following principles:
> * The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members
> should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing
> opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the
> stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the
> benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
> * Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people
> are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific
> calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are
> human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the
> conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's
> podium all day).
> * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many
> would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content
> (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are
> the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to
> retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to
> let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a
> forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you
> are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely
> and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of
> you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest
> gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
> partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
> decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
> select the new moderator.
> * This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters.
> What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes
> from members.
> Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
>
> Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand
> that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide
> more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I
> wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.
>
> Gwen and the great Orb
> sent from my iPhone 5s
> "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue  "
> Anonymous"
>
>> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Antony,
>> If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
> history, development and key ideas.
>> To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I
> was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA
> translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control
> Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
> At this time, I am:
>> * Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
>> * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on
> release coordinator.
>> * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated
> in 2015).
>> * Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
> Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer),
> Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on
> creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer),
> StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials
> (add-on creator and maintainer).
>> * The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
>> * NVDA translator (Korean).
>> * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote
> case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
> Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds,
> initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA
> snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual
> add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
>> * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the
> points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB)
> via LibLouis.
>> * Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
> international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
>> * Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among
> other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
>> * Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers
> and supporters of NVDA.
>> Hope this helps.
>> Cheers,
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
>>
>> I have two questions about this:
>>
>> 1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"?  Do you mean the employees
> of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?
>>
>> 2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
> moderator?
>>
>> Antony.
>>
>>> On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:
>>>
>>> I concur with Gene and Laz.  Democratic election is not the way to go.
>>> Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
>>> role.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Chris
>>
>> --
>> "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
> that the job was already taken."
>>
>> - Douglas Adams
>>
>>                                                  Please reply to the
> list;
>>                                                        please *don't* CC
> me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Gene
 

I'm pleased we will be able to vote on whether we should elect moderators.  As I said in an earlier message, I don't think lists should be run as democracies in the first place but we can now decide how the list will be run.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi Gene,

Consistency… We’ll do as you correctly pointed out. We may eventually need to set up a subgroup dealing with list policies…

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

 

To answer your question, the list has never elected any prior moderator or owner. The list used to be run like a typical list. 

 

I will simply say, since I have already stated my views at length, that it is a complete contradiction to decide for the list that there will be an election and not let the list decide if it wants one in the first place.  To be consistent, we should have an election to determine if the list wants to elect moderators. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gwensinfo

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

 

Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really bad.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue  "
Anonymous"

> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Gwen,
> Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives
> a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps
> moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I
> think we cannot forget the following principles:
> * The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members
> should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing
> opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the
> stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the
> benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
> * Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people
> are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific
> calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are
> human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the
> conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's
> podium all day).
> * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many
> would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content
> (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are
> the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to
> retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to
> let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a
> forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you
> are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely
> and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of
> you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest
> gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
> partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
> decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
> select the new moderator.
> * This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters.
> What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes
> from members.
> Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
>
> Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand
> that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide
> more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I
> wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.
>
> Gwen and the great Orb
> sent from my iPhone 5s
> "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue  "
> Anonymous"
>
>> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Antony,
>> If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
> history, development and key ideas.
>> To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I
> was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA
> translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control
> Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
> At this time, I am:
>> * Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
>> * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on
> release coordinator.
>> * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated
> in 2015).
>> * Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
> Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer),
> Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on
> creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer),
> StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials
> (add-on creator and maintainer).
>> * The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
>> * NVDA translator (Korean).
>> * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote
> case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
> Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds,
> initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA
> snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual
> add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
>> * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the
> points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB)
> via LibLouis.
>> * Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
> international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
>> * Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among
> other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
>> * Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers
> and supporters of NVDA.
>> Hope this helps.
>> Cheers,
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
>>
>> I have two questions about this:
>>
>> 1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"?  Do you mean the employees
> of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?
>>
>> 2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
> moderator?
>>
>> Antony.
>>
>>> On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:
>>>
>>> I concur with Gene and Laz.  Democratic election is not the way to go.
>>> Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
>>> role.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Chris
>>
>> --
>> "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
> that the job was already taken."
>>
>> - Douglas Adams
>>
>>                                                  Please reply to the
> list;
>>                                                        please *don't* CC
> me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Lino Morales
 

I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't want any part of it. Just my 2cents.

On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election
matters except to announce the actual election and present information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html




Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie

On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't want any part of it. Just my 2cents.

On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election
matters except to announce the actual election and present information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html





Gene
 

Michael Lee was a perfect stranger when he began.  If a perfect stranger does a bad job of moderating, there will be plenty of time to leave the list.  it is common for moderators to leave lists and be replaced by someone who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most list members. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
> I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
> the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
> etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
> want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
>
> On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
>> voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
>> such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
>> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
>> the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
>> at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
>> a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
>> character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
>> candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
>> believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
>> going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will  keep the
>> power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
>> into the role of moderator.
>>
>> Laz
>>
>> On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message.  Now I
>>> see that
>>> it was rejected because of restricted hash tags.  I shall send it
>>> again with
>>> another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
>>> outset
>>>
>>> Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
>>> probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
>>> discussions
>>> of nominees.  I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
>>> thousands of
>>> administration messages nor did most who joined.  We joined to
>>> discuss NVDA,
>>> not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
>>> appreciate
>>> your intentions.  But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
>>> are
>>> determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
>>> subgroup for
>>> those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
>>> that such
>>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both.  The main NVDA
>>> list
>>> should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
>>> election
>>> matters except to announce the actual election and present
>>> information about
>>> the nominees.
>>>
>>> Here is what I wrote previously.
>>>
>>> I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
>>> is an
>>> exception.  If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
>>> writing to question or challenge the decision.  But generational
>>> change,
>>> when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
>>> early
>>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason.  If you are worried about
>>> succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
>>> you
>>> appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
>>>
>>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
>>> democracy.  There
>>> are good reasons for this.  This is not a democracy, where people have
>>> records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
>>> administration.  There a very few active members and most discussion is
>>> about NVDA in some way.  If members were asked to vote on who has
>>> the most
>>> knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
>>> members to
>>> vote.  But this is a list to discuss NVDA.  It is not a place where
>>> people
>>> display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
>>> of and
>>> can use to choose a leader.  (I don't even know the names of more than
>>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
>>> because of any
>>> demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list.  I
>>> know
>>> them because they discuss NVDA.  There is no corellation between
>>> that and
>>> being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
>>> list.
>>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
>>> determination and
>>> frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so.  I
>>> shall,
>>> respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election.  I am not
>>> knowledgeable and
>>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
>>> cast an
>>> informed meaningful vote either.
>>>
>>> If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
>>> holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
>>> to get
>>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
>>> periodic elections.  If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
>>> does not
>>> do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
>>> institution, we
>>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
>>> person.  We
>>> are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
>>> meaningful information on which to make a decision.
>>>
>>> On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
>>> relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
>>> to divide
>>> up tasks such as moderation.  As I said, there are good reasons that
>>> lists
>>> are not run as democracies.
>>>
>>> And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
>>> their
>>> late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
>>> live is a
>>> really bad idea.  The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
>>> assuming different offices.  That's because it was believed that
>>> knowledge,
>>> wisdom, and maturity increase with age.  What about all those who
>>> may be in
>>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
>>> qualified by
>>> the knowledge and experience they have gotten?  Are you taking the
>>> position
>>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
>>> to run
>>> the list but those older won't?
>>>
>>> The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
>>> means
>>> you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
>>> rationale and
>>> procedure it is.  And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
>>> election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
>>> whether
>>> the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
>>> way.
>>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
>>> means if the
>>> list is a democratic institution?  Democracy is not suited to all
>>> institutions and this list is one of them.
>>>
>>> As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
>>> with
>>> that decision.  That is your decision and I am not writing to
>>> question the
>>> decision.  But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
>>> procedure
>>> to fill the vacancy.
>>>
>>> I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
>>> democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
>>> thoughts on
>>> this matter.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ------ Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Lee
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
>>> generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
>>> #ModNotice
>>> #AdminNotice
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
>>> community:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
>>> say it
>>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
>>> future. As a
>>> moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
>>> Planning
>>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
>>> was
>>> struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
>>> my legacy
>>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
>>> change
>>> happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
>>> potential
>>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
>>> community. And
>>> I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
>>> some of
>>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
>>> promoting
>>> NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
>>> position I
>>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
>>> this list
>>> hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
>>> member
>>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
>>>
>>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>




Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I just hope whoever takes Joseph's place will be as good as he was.



On 3/22/2016 4:12 PM, Gene wrote:
Michael Lee was a perfect stranger when he began.  If a perfect stranger does a bad job of moderating, there will be plenty of time to leave the list.  it is common for moderators to leave lists and be replaced by someone who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most list members. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
> I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
> the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
> etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
> want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
>
> On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
>> voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
>> such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
>> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
>> the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
>> at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
>> a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
>> character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
>> candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
>> believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
>> going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will  keep the
>> power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
>> into the role of moderator.
>>
>> Laz
>>
>> On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message.  Now I
>>> see that
>>> it was rejected because of restricted hash tags.  I shall send it
>>> again with
>>> another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
>>> outset
>>>
>>> Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
>>> probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
>>> discussions
>>> of nominees.  I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
>>> thousands of
>>> administration messages nor did most who joined.  We joined to
>>> discuss NVDA,
>>> not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
>>> appreciate
>>> your intentions.  But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
>>> are
>>> determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
>>> subgroup for
>>> those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
>>> that such
>>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both.  The main NVDA
>>> list
>>> should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
>>> election
>>> matters except to announce the actual election and present
>>> information about
>>> the nominees.
>>>
>>> Here is what I wrote previously.
>>>
>>> I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
>>> is an
>>> exception.  If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
>>> writing to question or challenge the decision.  But generational
>>> change,
>>> when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
>>> early
>>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason.  If you are worried about
>>> succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
>>> you
>>> appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
>>>
>>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
>>> democracy.  There
>>> are good reasons for this.  This is not a democracy, where people have
>>> records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
>>> administration.  There a very few active members and most discussion is
>>> about NVDA in some way.  If members were asked to vote on who has
>>> the most
>>> knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
>>> members to
>>> vote.  But this is a list to discuss NVDA.  It is not a place where
>>> people
>>> display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
>>> of and
>>> can use to choose a leader.  (I don't even know the names of more than
>>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
>>> because of any
>>> demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list.  I
>>> know
>>> them because they discuss NVDA.  There is no corellation between
>>> that and
>>> being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
>>> list.
>>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
>>> determination and
>>> frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so.  I
>>> shall,
>>> respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election.  I am not
>>> knowledgeable and
>>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
>>> cast an
>>> informed meaningful vote either.
>>>
>>> If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
>>> holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
>>> to get
>>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
>>> periodic elections.  If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
>>> does not
>>> do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
>>> institution, we
>>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
>>> person.  We
>>> are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
>>> meaningful information on which to make a decision.
>>>
>>> On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
>>> relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
>>> to divide
>>> up tasks such as moderation.  As I said, there are good reasons that
>>> lists
>>> are not run as democracies.
>>>
>>> And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
>>> their
>>> late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
>>> live is a
>>> really bad idea.  The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
>>> assuming different offices.  That's because it was believed that
>>> knowledge,
>>> wisdom, and maturity increase with age.  What about all those who
>>> may be in
>>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
>>> qualified by
>>> the knowledge and experience they have gotten?  Are you taking the
>>> position
>>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
>>> to run
>>> the list but those older won't?
>>>
>>> The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
>>> means
>>> you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
>>> rationale and
>>> procedure it is.  And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
>>> election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
>>> whether
>>> the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
>>> way.
>>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
>>> means if the
>>> list is a democratic institution?  Democracy is not suited to all
>>> institutions and this list is one of them.
>>>
>>> As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
>>> with
>>> that decision.  That is your decision and I am not writing to
>>> question the
>>> decision.  But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
>>> procedure
>>> to fill the vacancy.
>>>
>>> I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
>>> democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
>>> thoughts on
>>> this matter.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ------ Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Lee
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
>>> generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
>>> #ModNotice
>>> #AdminNotice
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
>>> community:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
>>> say it
>>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
>>> future. As a
>>> moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
>>> Planning
>>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
>>> was
>>> struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
>>> my legacy
>>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
>>> change
>>> happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
>>> potential
>>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
>>> community. And
>>> I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
>>> some of
>>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
>>> promoting
>>> NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
>>> position I
>>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
>>> this list
>>> hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
>>> member
>>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
>>>
>>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>