I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this
message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash
tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one
additional commenbt at the outset
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the
start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations
and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds
or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined
to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating
the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to
run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please
set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make
submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or
both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic
administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election
and present information about the nominees.
Here is what I wrote previously.
I almost never comment on list administration on
the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your
decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But
generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late
twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are
worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism
where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list
owner.
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run
like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a
democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most
members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and
most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote
on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds
for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a
place where people display records of leadership and personality that members
are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names
of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the
list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation
between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to
run a list. You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do
so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am
not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list
members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.
If the list were really a democratic institution,
we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms
for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office.
There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint
someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members
having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list
and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators
decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are
good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.
And making some sort of divide in generations when
the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its
collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States
Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's
because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with
age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties,
and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have
gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty,
for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?
The more I think about the reason you gave for
stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize
what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you
propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an
election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional
or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by
democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not
suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down,
I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not
writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason
given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
I considered writing you off list but, if the list
is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
thoughts on this matter.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
------ Original Message ----- From:
Joseph Lee Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Important
moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to
come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck
by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve
as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and
folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I
thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these
new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and
events related to its tenth anniversary.
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of
this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
Cheers,
Joseph
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
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Same happened to me, the post was rejected. so, I reply again by saying for me Joseph did a great job and am sorry he decided to leave the position to someone else. Hope the new moderator wil lbe able to fulfil all requirements. best. Angela from Italy Il 22/03/2016 12:17, Gene ha scritto: I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.
Here is what I wrote previously.
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough your self to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either. If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.
Gene ------ Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
Cheers,
Joseph
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
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Hello,
I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.
Laz
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote: I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.
Here is what I wrote previously.
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.
If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.
Gene ------ Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
Cheers,
Joseph
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
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I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: Laz [mailto:laz@talkingmp3players.com] Sent: 22 March 2016 13:30 To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator Hello, I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator. Laz On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote: I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.
Here is what I wrote previously.
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.
If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.
Gene ------ Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
Cheers,
Joseph
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-lett ing-go-of.html
-- Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com Phone: 727-498-0121 Skype: lazmesa Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesaFacebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
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I concur. It should not be a popularity contest. It needs to be a thoughtful and it judiciously done process by perhaps the list owner.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Mar 22, 2016, at 11:48 AM, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@gmail.com> wrote:
I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris
-----Original Message----- From: Laz [mailto:laz@talkingmp3players.com] Sent: 22 March 2016 13:30 To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Hello,
I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.
Laz
On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote: I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.
Here is what I wrote previously.
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.
If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.
Gene ------ Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
Cheers,
Joseph
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-lett ing-go-of.html -- Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/ Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com Phone: 727-498-0121 Skype: lazmesa Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
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Hello,
I too agree with Gene. I didn't join this list to vote on who will be the next moderator. I joined in order to discuss NVDA and how programs work with it. I don't have anything more to add.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 3/22/2016 6:29 AM, Laz wrote: Hello,
I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.
Laz
On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.
Here is what I wrote previously.
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.
If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.
Gene ------ Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
Cheers,
Joseph
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
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I have two questions about this:
1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?
2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?
Antony.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote: I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris
-- "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."
- Douglas Adams
Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
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Hi Antony, If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas. To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). At this time, I am: * Soon to be former associate moderator of this list. * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator. * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015). * Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer). * The original author of NVDA add-on development guide. * NVDA translator (Korean). * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge). * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis. * Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now. * Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016. * Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA. Hope this helps. Cheers, Joseph
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator I have two questions about this: 1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group? 2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator? Antony. On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote: I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris -- "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken." - Douglas Adams Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
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Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Antony, If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas. To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). At this time, I am: * Soon to be former associate moderator of this list. * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator. * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015). * Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer). * The original author of NVDA add-on development guide. * NVDA translator (Korean). * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge). * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis. * Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now. * Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016. * Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA. Hope this helps. Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
I have two questions about this:
1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?
2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?
Antony.
On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:
I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris -- "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."
- Douglas Adams
Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
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Hi Gwen, Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I think we cannot forget the following principles: * The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose. * Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's podium all day). * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to select the new moderator. * This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters. What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes from members. Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude). Cheers, Joseph
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@tampabay.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go. Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous" On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Antony, If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas. To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). At this time, I am: * Soon to be former associate moderator of this list. * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator. * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015). * Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer). * The original author of NVDA add-on development guide. * NVDA translator (Korean). * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge). * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis. * Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now. * Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016. * Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA. Hope this helps. Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
I have two questions about this:
1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group? 2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator? Antony.
On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:
I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris -- "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
that the job was already taken." - Douglas Adams
Please reply to the
list; please *don't* CC me.
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Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really bad.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gwen, Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I think we cannot forget the following principles: * The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose. * Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's podium all day). * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to select the new moderator. * This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters. What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes from members. Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude). Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@tampabay.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Antony, If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list. * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide. * NVDA translator (Korean). * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps. Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
I have two questions about this:
1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?
2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?
Antony.
On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:
I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris -- "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."
- Douglas Adams
Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.
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Hi Gwen, Back in 2013, I answered a call for volunteers by Nimer who asked around for people to help him run the list. Later I found out I was the only one who've volunteered, so Nimer announced that I've taken office. Before that, another moderator (who is no longer with us) handed the leadership of the list to Nimer (the associate moderator at that time) after the list experienced turmoil (for our old friends, you'd remember what I'm talking about). In a way, the procedure outlined is a slightly modified form of what happened in the past: when Nimer and I ask for candidates, we're essentially looking for volunteers who have the right skill set to come forward. For this reason, the requirements were set high in order to see if anyone who is serious about this job (no personality game) would show up (so far, we have one). The only difference is that you'll get a chance to decide also. However, if people say we should use traditional (appointment-based) method, then I think we (Nimer and I) should submit to your will (you see, that's what I mean by letting members dictate the fate and direction of a list). Cheers, Joseph
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@tampabay.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:53 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really bad. Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous" On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gwen, Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I think we cannot forget the following principles: * The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose. * Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's podium all day). * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to select the new moderator. * This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters. What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes from members. Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude). Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@tampabay.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go. Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
wrote: Hi Antony, If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of
this list). At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list. * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide. * NVDA translator (Korean). * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge). * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps. Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
I have two questions about this:
1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?
2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?
Antony.
On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:
I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris -- "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."
- Douglas Adams
Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.
|
|
Asking for volunteers or nominations or whatever you want to call it, is an excellent thing. But I really think that you having been the moderator and the other gentleman that you wished to talk about I can't spell his name have the foresight to know what the position really takes. I think all of us trust your judgment, since you've done such an excellent job.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Mar 22, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gwen, Back in 2013, I answered a call for volunteers by Nimer who asked around for people to help him run the list. Later I found out I was the only one who've volunteered, so Nimer announced that I've taken office. Before that, another moderator (who is no longer with us) handed the leadership of the list to Nimer (the associate moderator at that time) after the list experienced turmoil (for our old friends, you'd remember what I'm talking about). In a way, the procedure outlined is a slightly modified form of what happened in the past: when Nimer and I ask for candidates, we're essentially looking for volunteers who have the right skill set to come forward. For this reason, the requirements were set high in order to see if anyone who is serious about this job (no personality game) would show up (so far, we have one). The only difference is that you'll get a chance to decide also. However, if people say we should use traditional (appointment-based) method, then I think we (Nimer and I) should submit to your will (you see, that's what I mean by letting members dictate the fate and direction of a list). Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@tampabay.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:53 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really bad.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gwen, Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I think we cannot forget the following principles: * The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
* Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's podium all day). * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to select the new moderator.
* This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters.
What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes from members. Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude). Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@tampabay.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Antony, If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list. * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide. * NVDA translator (Korean). * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps. Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message----- From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
I have two questions about this:
1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?
2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?
Antony.
On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:
I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.
Cheers Chris -- "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."
- Douglas Adams
Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.
|
|
To answer your question, the list has never elected
any prior moderator or owner. The list used to be run like a typical
list.
I will simply say, since I have already stated my
views at length, that it is a complete contradiction to decide for the list that
there will be an election and not let the list decide if it wants one in the
first place. To be consistent, we should have an election to
determine if the list wants to elect moderators.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you
elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and
choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill
set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting
personalities into it, it could be really bad. Gwen and the great
Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his
tail and not his tongue " Anonymous" > On Mar 22, 2016, at
2:44 PM, Joseph Lee < joseph.lee22590@...>
wrote: > > Hi Gwen, > Although for some, selection by a
moderator is great, I believe it deprives > a chance for members to
exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps > moderators may make a
wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I > think we cannot
forget the following principles: > * The real stars of a show are
audiences. In other words, forum members > should participate in making a
forum great, and one way is through voicing > opinions. Many of us would
say the presenters (or moderators) should be the > stars, but I firmly
believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the > benefit of the
members within who have come together for a purpose. > * Moderators should
show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people > are selected to
lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific > calling (or a
sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are > human is
through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the > conference
hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's > podium
all day). > * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a
forum. Many > would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it
is both content > (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and
what not) who are > the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator
(outgoing as in soon to > retire), I believe that one way to make this a
reality is through voting: to > let you participate in a decision that'll
decide the overall direction of a > forum for years to come, to give you a
sense of pride for the fact that you > are an invaluable part of this
forum, to let you express your opinion freely > and to remind the new
moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of > you. In other
words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest > gift (I
think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal >
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make >
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to >
select the new moderator. > * This isn't the first time we held votes to
decide important list matters. > What made our transition to Groups.IO
possible was overwhelming "yes" votes > from members. > Hope this
helps (sorry if I came across as rude). > Cheers, > Joseph >
> > > > -----Original Message----- > From:
Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 22,
2016 11:21 AM > To: nvda@groups.io> Subject: Re: [nvda]
Electing a new moderator > > Joseph, it sounds like you have an
awful lot on your plate. I can understand > that, as moderator, you might
want to step down so that you could provide > more support and help to
some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I > wish you well. I really
think an election though is not the right way to go. > > Gwen and
the great Orb > sent from my iPhone 5s > "a dog has many friends
because he wags his tail and not his tongue " > Anonymous" >
>> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee < joseph.lee22590@...>
wrote: >> >> Hi Antony, >> If I understand Chris, he
meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's > history, development and key
ideas. >> To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking
office, I > was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active
participant in NVDA > translations work and was learning NVDA source code
and planning Control > Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by
a member of this list). > At this time, I am: >> * Soon to be
former associate moderator of this list. >> * One of the community
add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on > release
coordinator. >> * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to
NVDA series (updated > in 2015). >> * Current maintainer of or
have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: > Control Usage Assistant
(original add-on creator and former maintainer), > Enhanced Touch Gestures
(add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on > creator and
maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), > StationPlaylist
Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials > (add-on creator
and maintainer). >> * The original author of NVDA add-on development
guide. >> * NVDA translator (Korean). >> * Code contributor to
NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote > case sensitive find
routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in > Windows 10, added
ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, > initiated
Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA >
snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable
individual > add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft
Edge). >> * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as
one of the > points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified
English Braille (UEB) > via LibLouis. >> * Organized or led
initiatives on various gatherings (both local and > international scale),
including all NVDACon until now. >> * Chair of the NVDA Tenth
Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among > other things, is tasked
with organizing NVDACon International 2016. >> * Served as one of the
many points of contact between users, developers > and supporters of
NVDA. >> Hope this helps. >> Cheers, >>
Joseph >> >> >> >> >>
-----Original Message----- >> From: Antony Stone
[mailto:Antony.Stone@...] >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22,
2016 10:46 AM >> To: nvda@groups.io>> Subject: Re: [nvda]
Electing a new moderator >> >> I have two questions about
this: >> >> 1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA
establishment"? Do you mean the employees > of NV Access Limited, or
some other (hopefully larger) group? >> >> 2. Was Joseph a
part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list >
moderator? >> >> Antony. >> >>> On
Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote: >>>
>>> I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not
the way to go. >>> Someone from within the NVDA establishment is
required to take on the >>> role. >>> >>>
Cheers >>> Chris >> >> -- >> "In fact I
wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise > that the
job was already taken." >> >> - Douglas Adams >>
>>
Please reply to the >
list; >>
please *don't* CC > me. > > > > >
> > >
|
|
Hi Gene, Consistency… We’ll do as you correctly pointed out. We may eventually need to set up a subgroup dealing with list policies… Cheers, Joseph
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:29 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator To answer your question, the list has never elected any prior moderator or owner. The list used to be run like a typical list. I will simply say, since I have already stated my views at length, that it is a complete contradiction to decide for the list that there will be an election and not let the list decide if it wants one in the first place. To be consistent, we should have an election to determine if the list wants to elect moderators. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator Forgive me for asking; how did you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really bad.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " Anonymous"
> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote: > > Hi Gwen, > Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives > a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps > moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I > think we cannot forget the following principles: > * The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members > should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing > opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the > stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the > benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose. > * Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people > are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific > calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are > human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the > conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's > podium all day). > * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many > would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content > (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are > the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to > retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to > let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a > forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you > are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely > and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of > you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest > gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal > partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make > decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to > select the new moderator. > * This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters. > What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes > from members. > Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude). > Cheers, > Joseph > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM > To: nvda@groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator > > Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand > that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide > more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I > wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go. > > Gwen and the great Orb > sent from my iPhone 5s > "a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue " > Anonymous" > >> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote: >> >> Hi Antony, >> If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's > history, development and key ideas. >> To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I > was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA > translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control > Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). > At this time, I am: >> * Soon to be former associate moderator of this list. >> * One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on > release coordinator. >> * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated > in 2015). >> * Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: > Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), > Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on > creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), > StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials > (add-on creator and maintainer). >> * The original author of NVDA add-on development guide. >> * NVDA translator (Korean). >> * Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote > case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in > Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, > initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA > snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual > add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge). >> * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the > points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) > via LibLouis. >> * Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and > international scale), including all NVDACon until now. >> * Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among > other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016. >> * Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers > and supporters of NVDA. >> Hope this helps. >> Cheers, >> Joseph >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...] >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM >> To: nvda@groups.io >> Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator >> >> I have two questions about this: >> >> 1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees > of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group? >> >> 2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list > moderator? >> >> Antony. >> >>> On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote: >>> >>> I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. >>> Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the >>> role. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Chris >> >> -- >> "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise > that the job was already taken." >> >> - Douglas Adams >> >> Please reply to the > list; >> please *don't* CC > me. > > > > > > > >
|
|
I'm pleased we will be able to vote on whether we
should elect moderators. As I said in an earlier message, I don't think
lists should be run as democracies in the first place but we can now decide how
the list will be run.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Hi
Gene,
Consistency…
We’ll do as you correctly pointed out. We may eventually need to set up a
subgroup dealing with list policies…
Cheers,
Joseph
From: Gene
[mailto:gsasner@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:29
PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda]
Electing a new moderator
To answer your
question, the list has never elected any prior moderator or owner. The list
used to be run like a typical list.
I will simply say,
since I have already stated my views at length, that it is a complete
contradiction to decide for the list that there will be an election and not let
the list decide if it wants one in the first place. To be consistent,
we should have an election to determine if the list wants to elect
moderators.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Tuesday, March 22,
2016 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a
new moderator
Forgive me for asking; how did
you become moderator? Were you elected? Were you chosen by the ListManager? I
honestly feel that democracy and choosing a moderator is a bad way to go. I
think it should be based on one skill set as an extremely knowledgeable person
about NVDA. If you start getting personalities into it, it could be really
bad.
Gwen and the great Orb sent from my iPhone 5s "a dog has many
friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue
" Anonymous"
> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>
wrote: > > Hi Gwen, > Although for some, selection by a
moderator is great, I believe it deprives > a chance for members to
exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps > moderators may make a
wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I > think we cannot
forget the following principles: > * The real stars of a show are
audiences. In other words, forum members > should participate in making a
forum great, and one way is through voicing > opinions. Many of us would
say the presenters (or moderators) should be the > stars, but I firmly
believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the > benefit of the
members within who have come together for a purpose. > * Moderators should
show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people > are selected to
lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific > calling (or a
sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are > human is
through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the > conference
hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's > podium
all day). > * People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a
forum. Many > would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it
is both content > (topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and
what not) who are > the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator
(outgoing as in soon to > retire), I believe that one way to make this a
reality is through voting: to > let you participate in a decision that'll
decide the overall direction of a > forum for years to come, to give you a
sense of pride for the fact that you > are an invaluable part of this
forum, to let you express your opinion freely > and to remind the new
moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of > you. In other
words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest > gift (I
think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal >
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make >
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to >
select the new moderator. > * This isn't the first time we held votes to
decide important list matters. > What made our transition to Groups.IO
possible was overwhelming "yes" votes > from members. > Hope this
helps (sorry if I came across as rude). > Cheers, > Joseph >
> > > > -----Original Message----- > From:
Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM > To: nvda@groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda]
Electing a new moderator > > Joseph, it sounds like you have an
awful lot on your plate. I can understand > that, as moderator, you might
want to step down so that you could provide > more support and help to
some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I > wish you well. I really
think an election though is not the right way to go. > > Gwen and
the great Orb > sent from my iPhone 5s > "a dog has many friends
because he wags his tail and not his tongue " > Anonymous" >
>> On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>
wrote: >> >> Hi Antony, >> If I understand Chris, he
meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's > history, development and key
ideas. >> To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking
office, I > was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active
participant in NVDA > translations work and was learning NVDA source code
and planning Control > Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by
a member of this list). > At this time, I am: >> * Soon to be
former associate moderator of this list. >> * One of the community
add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on > release
coordinator. >> * Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to
NVDA series (updated > in 2015). >> * Current maintainer of or
have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: > Control Usage Assistant
(original add-on creator and former maintainer), > Enhanced Touch Gestures
(add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on > creator and
maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), > StationPlaylist
Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials > (add-on creator
and maintainer). >> * The original author of NVDA add-on development
guide. >> * NVDA translator (Korean). >> * Code contributor to
NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote > case sensitive find
routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in > Windows 10, added
ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, > initiated
Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA >
snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable
individual > add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft
Edge). >> * Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as
one of the > points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified
English Braille (UEB) > via LibLouis. >> * Organized or led
initiatives on various gatherings (both local and > international scale),
including all NVDACon until now. >> * Chair of the NVDA Tenth
Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among > other things, is tasked
with organizing NVDACon International 2016. >> * Served as one of the
many points of contact between users, developers > and supporters of
NVDA. >> Hope this helps. >> Cheers, >>
Joseph >> >> >> >> >>
-----Original Message----- >> From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...] >>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM >> To: nvda@groups.io >> Subject: Re: [nvda]
Electing a new moderator >> >> I have two questions about
this: >> >> 1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA
establishment"? Do you mean the employees > of NV Access Limited, or
some other (hopefully larger) group? >> >> 2. Was Joseph a
part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list >
moderator? >> >> Antony. >> >>> On
Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote: >>>
>>> I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not
the way to go. >>> Someone from within the NVDA establishment is
required to take on the >>> role. >>> >>>
Cheers >>> Chris >> >> -- >> "In fact I
wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise > that the
job was already taken." >> >> - Douglas Adams >>
>>
Please reply to the >
list; >>
please *don't* CC > me. > > > > >
> > >
|
|
I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote: Hello,
I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.
Laz
On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.
Here is what I wrote previously.
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.
If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.
Gene ------ Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
Cheers,
Joseph
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
|
|
Hi, Lino,
I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.
Rosemarie
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote: I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,
I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.
Laz
On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.
Here is what I wrote previously.
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.
If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.
Gene ------ Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
Cheers,
Joseph
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
|
|
Michael Lee was a perfect stranger when he
began. If a perfect stranger does a bad job of moderating, there will be
plenty of time to leave the list. it is common for moderators to leave
lists and be replaced by someone who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most list
members.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Hi, Lino, I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of
running this list. I might just leave the group too if the list has to be
run by a perfect stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step
down. Rosemarie On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales
wrote: > I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job
running > the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause
he works > etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future
I don't > want any part of it. Just my 2cents. > > On
3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I must
say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that >>
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position >>
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified
candidate >> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being
voted into >> the position and given power to do as they secretly
intend. Just look >> at the track history of politics. List ownership
and moderation is not >> a democratic process by any means. We have no
idea as to the true >> character of most list members. I have already
seen one proposal for a >> candidate which I'm not certain would make a
good moderator as I >> believe it's an alias of someone else on the
list and that's all I'm >> going to say about that. I sincerely hope
that Nimer will keep the >> power of veto and put a stop to any
unqualified person being voted >> into the role of
moderator. >> >> Laz >> >> On 3/22/16, Gene
< gsasner@...>
wrote: >>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this
message. Now I >>> see that >>> it was rejected
because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it >>> again
with >>> another subject line and I shall make one additional
commenbt at the >>> outset >>> >>> Since I
initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will >>>
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and >>>
discussions >>> of nominees. I did not join this list to
receive hundreds or >>> thousands of >>> administration
messages nor did most who joined. We joined to >>> discuss
NVDA, >>> not how to run the list nor who should be in
charge. >>> >>> I appreciate the work you have done in
moderating the list and I >>> appreciate >>> your
intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
>>> are >>> determined to run the list as a democracy,
please set up a chat >>> subgroup for >>> those who
want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask >>> that
such >>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both.
The main NVDA >>> list >>> should be to discuss NVDA
and not democratic administrative nor >>> election >>>
matters except to announce the actual election and present >>>
information about >>> the nominees. >>> >>>
Here is what I wrote previously. >>> >>> I almost never
comment on list administration on the list but this >>> is
an >>> exception. If you want to step down, that's your
decision and I am not >>> writing to question or challenge the
decision. But generational >>> change, >>> when
the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or >>>
early >>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you
are worried about >>> succession, then it would be far better to
have some mechanism where >>> you >>> appoint someone
to take over with the prior approval of the list
owner. >>> >>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of
a list run like a >>> democracy. There >>> are
good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people
have >>> records and attributes that are known to most members
regarding list >>> administration. There a very few active
members and most discussion is >>> about NVDA in some way. If
members were asked to vote on who has >>> the most >>>
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for >>>
members to >>> vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA.
It is not a place where >>> people >>> display records
of leadership and personality that members are aware >>> of
and >>> can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the
names of more than >>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and
I know them not >>> because of any >>> demonstrated
personality traits that relate to running the list. I >>>
know >>> them because they discuss NVDA. There is no
corellation between >>> that and >>> being able to
determine who has the qualities best suited to run a >>>
list. >>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
>>> determination and >>> frankly, in this context, you
and the list owner should do so. I >>> shall, >>>
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not >>>
knowledgeable and >>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and
most list members can't >>> cast an >>> informed
meaningful vote either. >>> >>> If the list were really
a democratic institution, we would have people >>> holding office
with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people >>> to
get >>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office.
There would be >>> periodic elections. If we make a mistake
and appoint someone who >>> does not >>> do a good job
in error, this being a list, not a democratic >>> institution,
we >>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace
the >>> person. We >>> are electing someone for
an indefinite term with most members having no >>> meaningful
information on which to make a decision. >>> >>> On
every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes
decisions >>> relevant to administration and the owner and
moderators decide how >>> to divide >>> up tasks such
as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that >>>
lists >>> are not run as
democracies. >>> >>> And making some sort of divide in
generations when the generation in >>> their >>> late
twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to >>>
live is a >>> really bad idea. The United States Constitution
has minimum ages for >>> assuming different offices. That's
because it was believed that >>> knowledge, >>> wisdom,
and maturity increase with age. What about all those who >>>
may be in >>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be
better >>> qualified by >>> the knowledge and
experience they have gotten? Are you taking the >>>
position >>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will
be considered >>> to run >>> the list but those older
won't? >>> >>> The more I think about the reason you
gave for stepping down and the >>> means >>> you
propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad >>>
rationale and >>> procedure it is. And a further irony is that
you propose a democratic >>> election to fill the position but you
haven't held an election on >>> whether >>> the list
should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other >>>
way. >>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by
democratic >>> means if the >>> list is a democratic
institution? Democracy is not suited to all >>> institutions
and this list is one of them. >>> >>> As I said at the
outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel >>>
with >>> that decision. That is your decision and I am not
writing to >>> question the >>> decision. But I
strongly disagree with the reason given and the >>>
procedure >>> to fill the vacancy. >>> >>> I
considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as
a >>> democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
>>> thoughts on >>> this
matter. >>> >>> Gene >>> ------ Original
Message ----- >>> From: Joseph Lee >>> Sent: Monday,
March 21, 2016 10:26 PM >>> To: nvda@groups.io>>> Subject: [nvda]
Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next >>>
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat >>>
#ModNotice >>>
#AdminNotice >>> >>> >>> Dear members of the
NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA >>>
community: >>> >>> >>> >>> For
some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would >>>
say it >>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think
about the >>> future. As a >>> moderator of this list
and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary >>>
Planning >>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today.
Specifically, I >>> was >>> struck by the following
thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on >>> my
legacy >>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love
than I did? >>> >>> >>> >>> You
see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
>>> change >>> happen. We now have members of the next
generation who are very >>> enthusiastic >>> about NVDA
and its community, people who are showing leadership >>>
potential >>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and
the wider >>> community. And >>> I thought that this is
a good time to carry this out, seeing that >>> some
of >>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved
in >>> promoting >>> NVDA and events related to its
tenth
anniversary. >>> >>> >>> >>>
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator >>>
position I >>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request
that members of >>> this list >>> hold a list-wide
election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a >>>
member >>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the
NVDA community. >>> >>> >>> >>>
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few
years. >>> >>> >>> >>>
Cheers, >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>>
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found
at: >>> >>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > >
>
|
|
I just hope whoever takes Joseph's place will be as good as he was.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 3/22/2016 4:12 PM, Gene wrote:
Michael Lee was a perfect
stranger when he began. If a perfect stranger does a bad job
of moderating, there will be plenty of time to leave the
list. it is common for moderators to leave lists and be
replaced by someone who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most
list members.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
Hi, Lino,
I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list.
I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a
perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.
Rosemarie
On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
> I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job
running
> the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause
he works
> etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future
I don't
> want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
>
> On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will
also add that
>> voting on names of strangers to be elected to an
important position
>> such as a list moderator could end up having an
unqualified candidate
>> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being
voted into
>> the position and given power to do as they secretly
intend. Just look
>> at the track history of politics. List ownership and
moderation is not
>> a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to
the true
>> character of most list members. I have already seen one
proposal for a
>> candidate which I'm not certain would make a good
moderator as I
>> believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and
that's all I'm
>> going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer
will keep the
>> power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person
being voted
>> into the role of moderator.
>>
>> Laz
>>
>> On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this
message. Now I
>>> see that
>>> it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I
shall send it
>>> again with
>>> another subject line and I shall make one additional
commenbt at the
>>> outset
>>>
>>> Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the
start of what will
>>> probably be an avalanche of messages regarding
nominations and
>>> discussions
>>> of nominees. I did not join this list to receive
hundreds or
>>> thousands of
>>> administration messages nor did most who joined. We
joined to
>>> discuss NVDA,
>>> not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the
list and I
>>> appreciate
>>> your intentions. But this is just not the way to run
a list. If you
>>> are
>>> determined to run the list as a democracy, please set
up a chat
>>> subgroup for
>>> those who want to discuss nominations and make
submissions or ask
>>> that such
>>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both.
The main NVDA
>>> list
>>> should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic
administrative nor
>>> election
>>> matters except to announce the actual election and
present
>>> information about
>>> the nominees.
>>>
>>> Here is what I wrote previously.
>>>
>>> I almost never comment on list administration on the
list but this
>>> is an
>>> exception. If you want to step down, that's your
decision and I am not
>>> writing to question or challenge the decision. But
generational
>>> change,
>>> when the generation in question is probably in its
late twenties or
>>> early
>>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you
are worried about
>>> succession, then it would be far better to have some
mechanism where
>>> you
>>> appoint someone to take over with the prior approval
of the list owner.
>>>
>>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run
like a
>>> democracy. There
>>> are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy,
where people have
>>> records and attributes that are known to most members
regarding list
>>> administration. There a very few active members and
most discussion is
>>> about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to
vote on who has
>>> the most
>>> knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some
grounds for
>>> members to
>>> vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not
a place where
>>> people
>>> display records of leadership and personality that
members are aware
>>> of and
>>> can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the
names of more than
>>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know
them not
>>> because of any
>>> demonstrated personality traits that relate to
running the list. I
>>> know
>>> them because they discuss NVDA. There is no
corellation between
>>> that and
>>> being able to determine who has the qualities best
suited to run a
>>> list.
>>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such
a
>>> determination and
>>> frankly, in this context, you and the list owner
should do so. I
>>> shall,
>>> respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I
am not
>>> knowledgeable and
>>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list
members can't
>>> cast an
>>> informed meaningful vote either.
>>>
>>> If the list were really a democratic institution, we
would have people
>>> holding office with campaigns and some sort of
mechanisms for people
>>> to get
>>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for
office. There would be
>>> periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint
someone who
>>> does not
>>> do a good job in error, this being a list, not a
democratic
>>> institution, we
>>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to
replace the
>>> person. We
>>> are electing someone for an indefinite term with most
members having no
>>> meaningful information on which to make a decision.
>>>
>>> On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list
and makes decisions
>>> relevant to administration and the owner and
moderators decide how
>>> to divide
>>> up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are
good reasons that
>>> lists
>>> are not run as democracies.
>>>
>>> And making some sort of divide in generations when
the generation in
>>> their
>>> late twenties or early thirties has most of its
collective life to
>>> live is a
>>> really bad idea. The United States Constitution has
minimum ages for
>>> assuming different offices. That's because it was
believed that
>>> knowledge,
>>> wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about
all those who
>>> may be in
>>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may
be better
>>> qualified by
>>> the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are
you taking the
>>> position
>>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will
be considered
>>> to run
>>> the list but those older won't?
>>>
>>> The more I think about the reason you gave for
stepping down and the
>>> means
>>> you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize
what a bad
>>> rationale and
>>> procedure it is. And a further irony is that you
propose a democratic
>>> election to fill the position but you haven't held an
election on
>>> whether
>>> the list should be run as a democracy or in the
traditional or other
>>> way.
>>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by
democratic
>>> means if the
>>> list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not
suited to all
>>> institutions and this list is one of them.
>>>
>>> As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I
have no quarrel
>>> with
>>> that decision. That is your decision and I am not
writing to
>>> question the
>>> decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason
given and the
>>> procedure
>>> to fill the vacancy.
>>>
>>> I considered writing you off list but, if the list is
being run as a
>>> democracy, it follows that other list members should
know my
>>> thoughts on
>>> this matter.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ------ Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Lee
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd
like to request next
>>> generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the
moderator's seat
>>> #ModNotice
>>> #AdminNotice
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and
the wider NVDA
>>> community:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For some, change of generation is a scary thing,
while others would
>>> say it
>>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think
about the
>>> future. As a
>>> moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA
Tenth Anniversary
>>> Planning
>>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today.
Specifically, I
>>> was
>>> struck by the following thought: If I die tonight,
who'll carry on
>>> my legacy
>>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more
love than I did?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let
a generational
>>> change
>>> happen. We now have members of the next generation
who are very
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about NVDA and its community, people who are showing
leadership
>>> potential
>>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and
the wider
>>> community. And
>>> I thought that this is a good time to carry this out,
seeing that
>>> some of
>>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively
involved in
>>> promoting
>>> NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the
moderator
>>> position I
>>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request
that members of
>>> this list
>>> hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator.
I'll remain a
>>> member
>>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving
the NVDA community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you everyone for your support for the past few
years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
>>>
>>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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