Email clients


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,


.EML is also the default save as format for Thunderbird.  If you save an open Thunderbird message as follows:

1. Open message

2. Press control + S

3.  tab to the file types box

4.  you will see that the default file extension is all files *.*

5.  without changing anything, tab to the save button and press space bar.


When you check the folder for your default save message, you will see the file extension is .EML.

On 4/15/2018 11:21 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
Yes, *.EML is the message format of Outlook Express and WLM...

Rui


Às 16:13 de 15/04/2018, Damien Garwood escreveu:
Hi Rui,
I'm guessing *.eml is the WLM format? Never heard of that extension before.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

You have a Thunderbird addon to handle *.EML messages...

Rui

Às 15:12 de 15/04/2018, Damien Garwood escreveu:
Hi there,
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.





.

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well I an no doubt
you keep getting called dinosaurs, for not using email on a smart phone, everyone does this now they all say to me, nobody uses email on a computer any more!
To this I say bah humbug, and have been using Outlook Express tweaked version for some years in Windows 7 wi5th no problems. it also gives me access to newsgroups, which surprisingly are still alive out there, and has easy to configure message rules so I can have multiple email lists coming in, each sorted via pop3 to a different folder with no user input plus of course I can have both Imap and pop3 of the same account which lets me see spam folders in some isps emails.
I did try the providers web interfaces and while these can work well, you are at the mercy of web designers who are sadists. By that I mean that you tumble out of bed one day and find the whole user interface has been 'improved' to such an extent you have no idea what to do with it.
I'm just glad that OE is still supported by nvda and works well.
I did not like Live mail as it kept falling over and could not support identities which allows me to effectively keep different parts of my online life apart and not see them till I decide to see that part.

Unfortunately, although the patch works on windows 10, whenever windows does a complete update, it trashes things it does not like including oe, and one has to restore it again, taking up valuable time.
In your issues with Dropbox, I have to say I've had no issues with the latest systems indeed on windows 7, it seems to be faster generally. I do not use it on line only offline though, as if I wanted an on line storage system I'd not be using dropbox as its far too snazzy.


Pandering to the sighted again.

So unfortunately since you now have wlm, you are a bit stuffed as I do not think you can back convert to OE format. What you can do though is find a copy of the stand alone installer and not the stub as they put out latterly.

It was a shame that internet mail and news in 7 was not made accessible as it would have been nice. There is of course Outlook itself, but once again its like buying a combine harvester just cos you want a tractor.

Besides If I had ten pounds for everyone who has had aggro with the 2016 incarnation, I'd be living in style with servants by now.



So rant over, but I basically agree, where are the very easy to use, non html based simple reliable email and news clients that blind people can use. Maybe somebody needs to write one.
Brian

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Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Garwood" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] Email clients


Hi there,

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I cannot understand why this add on has not been put into the main app modules in nvda to be honest. I think one thing that tbird missed out on was emulating the shortcuts of OE as an option.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Garwood" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients


Hi,
You need an addon for repositioning columns? Wow. Usually something like that would come as an option within the application itself (Explorer, OE etc). Considering how flexible and versatile Mozilla applications generally are, that surprises me to no end.
Would you say Thunderbird was the best client? If so then I’ll give it more than just the perfunctory glance. Like I say, it does seem the most accessible when it comes to finding and navigating controls. Also, how would I go about importing my WLM stuff over?
Cheers.
Damien.


From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Hi Damien,



If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options. In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS. Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird. This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.







On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi there,

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.



--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

In theory it should not have to be that way with interfaces in my view. There is absolutely not real reason why Microsoft should not offer other interfaces to make windows look like many earlier versions or anything else, its just a shell or skin in the end.
I really don't understand why this is not done, it might increase early adoption of new versions.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Garwood" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients


Hi,
I would be interested to have the menu version as well, if you have it. I’ve never quite got my head around ribbons and so have never been able to really look into what it can do.
Just goes to show that what you learned in IT classes at school 20 years ago soon turns out to be completely pointless and thus a total waste of time and energy. But hey ho. Such is life. Everything must experience change, I guess.
Cheers.
Damien.


From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

It may be possible that installing Drop Box caused this problem but it's unlikely. You can try the following:
You can reinstall Windows Live Mail but you will need a full installer since Microsoft no longer provides one. I don't know if you can just run the installer or if you have to remove Windows Live Mail first. You can try either way you want. I'll assume you are using the ribbon version and I'll send you a download link for that. If you are using the older menu version, let us know.

Instead of reinstalling the program, you may wish to run a system restore point from before the problem started first, and see if that corrects it.

The download link is:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ofa66y48zgxnet/wnewlsetup-all.exe?dl=1

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Damien Garwood
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Email clients

Hi there,

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Ho ho. Two things.
1 Imap does not support automatic sorting of emal on the users machine
2 webmail puts the design of the user interface beyond your control. Never a good thing for a vital communication tool.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients


Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow. It is also configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to turn them off. When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days, one should always use IMAP access. This eliminates the need to import messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail interface, too.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299 (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

* * *The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.* * But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another* * profound truth.*

* ~ * *Niels Bohr*


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Its interesting that on virgin, i can set up pop 3 rules to delete from server and never see idiot email but if I enable imap as well I do still see stuff deleted from the pop3 server as they seem tohave different stores neither talking to the other. In some cases one form has delivered email to me hours before the other has as well, so its probably a very common issue as there are a lot of servers who are using the same platform that virgin does it seems. However their web interface is rubbish.
Brian

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Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients


If you set up a machine with an IMAP account and another e-mail program on that machine or another is already using POP3 and is automatically deleting messages from the server, there will be little or nothing to download in the program using IMAP at the outset because the other program will have been removing messages as that program downloads them. So you will still have to import messages from your other program if you want them in the new one even if you set up an IMAP account.

Also, for people who don't use more than one device, computer or whatever, to download e-mail, I don't know if IMAP is as convenient. I don't use IMAP so I can't compare. But without more information, the assumption that everyone should use IMAP shouldn't be made.

You didn't say everyone should use IMAP, but often in such discussions, that is the impression given by the exchange of messages. I'm saying that unless this is demonstrated, it shouldn't be assumed by readers.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients


Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow. It is also configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to turn them off. When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days, one should always use IMAP access. This eliminates the need to import messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail interface, too.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299 (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

~ Niels Bohr


James AUSTIN
 

Hi Brian


IMAP  not supporting automatic sorting might explain why my rules work only intermittently and then only on UNIX-based systems not on Thunderbird. I miss OE but really like Thunderbird.

Best wishes
James

On 16/04/2018 10:42, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Ho ho. Two things.
1 Imap does not support automatic sorting of emal on the users machine
2 webmail puts the design of the user interface beyond your control. Never a good thing for a vital communication tool.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients


Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow. It is also configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to turn them off. When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days, one should always use IMAP access. This eliminates the need to import messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail interface, too.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299 (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

* * *The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.* * But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another* * profound truth.*

* ~ * *Niels Bohr*



Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Not all web site driven systems offering imap are created equal, is all I'd say here.
brian

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Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ishe Chinyoka" <ishe@chinyoka.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients


Therein lies the advantage of IMAP: messages are not permanently deleted
from the server. Which means that even if you are using one device, when
that device is lost or crashes, you don't lose your email messages.
Also, with IMAP, setting up things like filters and creating of folders
can be done on the server and synced to your email client, rather than
setting them up for each device you use. There is one central server to
manage your email organisation such that you create a filter or folder
and forget about it for the next years or so, and your messages would be
distributed according to the rules you set.


IMAP also syncs all folders, rather than pulling messages from the inbox
only: which means you can choose to have all folders downloaded to your
email client.


As for Brian's advice, I think he was just advising: and like any
advice, a person is free to take it or leave it based on the information
available to them. So a person who renders advice will certainly do so
pointing out the obvious advantages and disadvantages to a particular
action, So the "should always use" in this context could be understood
in that context and not as a peremptory statement.

Gene:
If you set up a machine with an IMAP account and another e-mail
program on that machine or another is already using POP3 and is
automatically deleting messages from the server, there will be little
or nothing to download in the program using IMAP at the outset because
the other program will have been removing messages as that program
downloads them. So you will still have to import messages from your
other program if you want them in the new one even if you set up an
IMAP account.

Also, for people who don't use more than one device, computer or
whatever, to download e-mail, I don't know if IMAP is as convenient.
I don't use IMAP so I can't compare. But without more information,
the assumption that everyone should use IMAP shouldn't be made.

You didn't say everyone should use IMAP, but often in such
discussions, that is the impression given by the exchange of
messages. I'm saying that unless this is demonstrated, it shouldn't
be assumed by readers.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:30 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Email clients

Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow. It is also
configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast
majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to
turn them off. When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and
VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless
they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days,
one should always use IMAP access. This eliminates the need to import
messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that
happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail
interface, too.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299 (dot
level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

*/ /**/The opposite of a correct statement is a false
statement./**/ But the opposite of a profound truth may well be
another/**/ profound truth./*

*/ ~ /**/Niels Bohr/*







 

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 02:42 am, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
1 Imap does not support automatic sorting of emal on the users machine
No, it doesn't, because it's a server side protocol and one typically sets up one's filters and folders on the server side.  This can be done through many e-mail clients, too.

The whole point of IMAP is to have all the heavy lifting done in a single, centralized location so that all clients accessing the same account(s) will see exactly the same thing.
 
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

Gene,

I have been using Windows Live Mail, the menu version, and I have not found a calendar.

How do I access it?

Thanks.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Have you tried Windows Live Mail?  It is not bloated to a bothersome extent and it is not slow.  It has features like a calendar but they aren't intrusive and you can use the program and never come across them unless you intentionally look for them. 

 

I haven't used thunderbird enough to know if it is slow in general.  I tried it on a machine that is already an old slow machine and it was annoyingly slow at opening messages but I don't know how it is on a fast machine.  However, you are the second person I've seen complain of slowness in the last number of months so that's a little more evidence for it being slow.  But I don't draw conclusions about performance on just two reports.  Five or ten would be much more conclusive since programs can perform differently on different machines even if the machines provide good results with programs in general.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 

 

On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 


Gene
 

Look in the go menu.  I don't know if the calendar is accessible.
 
Gene

------ Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Gene,

I have been using Windows Live Mail, the menu version, and I have not found a calendar.

How do I access it?

Thanks.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Have you tried Windows Live Mail?  It is not bloated to a bothersome extent and it is not slow.  It has features like a calendar but they aren't intrusive and you can use the program and never come across them unless you intentionally look for them. 

 

I haven't used thunderbird enough to know if it is slow in general.  I tried it on a machine that is already an old slow machine and it was annoyingly slow at opening messages but I don't know how it is on a fast machine.  However, you are the second person I've seen complain of slowness in the last number of months so that's a little more evidence for it being slow.  But I don't draw conclusions about performance on just two reports.  Five or ten would be much more conclusive since programs can perform differently on different machines even if the machines provide good results with programs in general.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 

 

On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

Yes, some can delete gMail messages with a POP account, I have set it up both ways for folks.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 1:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

I should add that if GMail is being used, what I wrote may not apply.  but then, it wouldn't apply to use of a POP account either.  When a new client is used with GMail, all mail in the inbox is downloaded to the new client when POP is used.  I'm not sure if a POP e-mail program can be instructed to remove messages from the GMail inbox. 

 

I was discussing using services such as AT&T, Verizon, and other e-mail services that don't want to save everything as GMail does.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 1:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

If you set up a machine with an IMAP account and another e-mail program on that machine or another is already using POP3 and is automatically deleting messages from the server, there will be little or nothing to download in the program using IMAP at the outset because the other program will have been removing messages as that program downloads them.  So you will still have to import messages from your other program if you want them in the new one even if you set up an IMAP account. 

 

Also, for people who don't use more than one device, computer or whatever, to download e-mail, I don't know if IMAP is as convenient.  I don't use IMAP so I can't compare.  But without more information, the assumption that everyone should use IMAP shouldn't be made. 

 

You didn't say everyone should use IMAP, but often in such discussions, that is the impression given by the exchange of messages.  I'm saying that unless this is demonstrated, it shouldn't be assumed by readers.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:30 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow.  It is also configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to turn them off.  When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days, one should always use IMAP access.  This eliminates the need to import messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.  

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail interface, too.
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

I don't like doing my eMail on a phone, it's a drag.
I even go the other direction, I text people all the time from my computer's eMail program, and they don't even realize it is coming from computer unless they are familiar with my doing that.
You can do that from your eMail by eMailing their 10-gigit-number at Domain.com
Each phone company has a different domain, Verizon has two of them...
@vtext.com and @vzwpix.com
Somewhere I have an entire list of domains for different phone companies and saved it, but they can be found with a web search for them.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Well I an no doubt
you keep getting called dinosaurs, for not using email on a smart phone, everyone does this now they all say to me, nobody uses email on a computer any more!
To this I say bah humbug, and have been using Outlook Express tweaked version for some years in Windows 7 wi5th no problems. it also gives me access to newsgroups, which surprisingly are still alive out there, and has easy to configure message rules so I can have multiple email lists coming in, each sorted via pop3 to a different folder with no user input plus of course I can have both Imap and pop3 of the same account which lets me see spam folders in some isps emails.
I did try the providers web interfaces and while these can work well, you are at the mercy of web designers who are sadists. By that I mean that you tumble out of bed one day and find the whole user interface has been 'improved' to such an extent you have no idea what to do with it.
I'm just glad that OE is still supported by nvda and works well.
I did not like Live mail as it kept falling over and could not support identities which allows me to effectively keep different parts of my online life apart and not see them till I decide to see that part.

Unfortunately, although the patch works on windows 10, whenever windows does a complete update, it trashes things it does not like including oe, and one has to restore it again, taking up valuable time.
In your issues with Dropbox, I have to say I've had no issues with the latest systems indeed on windows 7, it seems to be faster generally. I do not use it on line only offline though, as if I wanted an on line storage system I'd not be using dropbox as its far too snazzy.


Pandering to the sighted again.

So unfortunately since you now have wlm, you are a bit stuffed as I do not think you can back convert to OE format. What you can do though is find a copy of the stand alone installer and not the stub as they put out latterly.

It was a shame that internet mail and news in 7 was not made accessible as it would have been nice. There is of course Outlook itself, but once again its like buying a combine harvester just cos you want a tractor.

Besides If I had ten pounds for everyone who has had aggro with the 2016 incarnation, I'd be living in style with servants by now.



So rant over, but I basically agree, where are the very easy to use, non
html based simple reliable email and news clients that blind people can use.
Maybe somebody needs to write one.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Garwood" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] Email clients


Hi there,

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7
and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and
uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it.
I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials
installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge.
Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with
nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best
client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do
with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the
next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five
years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now,
thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its
abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get
a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its
development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic,
accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my
experiences:

1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic
on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I
was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what
was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and
some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was
nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to
OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old
rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox
before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined
to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the
most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of
unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds,
half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that
its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox,
pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see
frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail,
Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Devin Prater
 

You use Thunderbird, right? I’m starting to get back into using Windows more, and besides Thunderbird being a bit sluggish, it is pretty good.

On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov> wrote:

I don't like doing my eMail on a phone, it's a drag.
I even go the other direction, I text people all the time from my computer's eMail program, and they don't even realize it is coming from computer unless they are familiar with my doing that.
You can do that from your eMail by eMailing their 10-gigit-number at Domain.com
Each phone company has a different domain, Verizon has two of them...
@vtext.com and @vzwpix.com
Somewhere I have an entire list of domains for different phone companies and saved it, but they can be found with a web search for them.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Well I an no doubt
you keep getting called dinosaurs, for not using email on a smart phone, everyone does this now they all say to me, nobody uses email on a computer any more!
To this I say bah humbug, and have been using Outlook Express tweaked version for some years in Windows 7 wi5th no problems. it also gives me access to newsgroups, which surprisingly are still alive out there, and has easy to configure message rules so I can have multiple email lists coming in, each sorted via pop3 to a different folder with no user input plus of course I can have both Imap and pop3 of the same account which lets me see spam folders in some isps emails.
I did try the providers web interfaces and while these can work well, you are at the mercy of web designers who are sadists. By that I mean that you tumble out of bed one day and find the whole user interface has been 'improved' to such an extent you have no idea what to do with it.
I'm just glad that OE is still supported by nvda and works well.
I did not like Live mail as it kept falling over and could not support identities which allows me to effectively keep different parts of my online life apart and not see them till I decide to see that part.

Unfortunately, although the patch works on windows 10, whenever windows does a complete update, it trashes things it does not like including oe, and one has to restore it again, taking up valuable time.
In your issues with Dropbox, I have to say I've had no issues with the latest systems indeed on windows 7, it seems to be faster generally. I do not use it on line only offline though, as if I wanted an on line storage system I'd not be using dropbox as its far too snazzy.


Pandering to the sighted again.

So unfortunately since you now have wlm, you are a bit stuffed as I do not think you can back convert to OE format. What you can do though is find a copy of the stand alone installer and not the stub as they put out latterly.

It was a shame that internet mail and news in 7 was not made accessible as it would have been nice. There is of course Outlook itself, but once again its like buying a combine harvester just cos you want a tractor.

Besides If I had ten pounds for everyone who has had aggro with the 2016 incarnation, I'd be living in style with servants by now.



So rant over, but I basically agree, where are the very easy to use, non
html based simple reliable email and news clients that blind people can use.
Maybe somebody needs to write one.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Garwood" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] Email clients


Hi there,

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7
and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and
uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it.
I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials
installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge.
Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with
nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best
client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do
with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the
next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five
years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now,
thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its
abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get
a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its
development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic,
accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my
experiences:

1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic
on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I
was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what
was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and
some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was
nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to
OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old
rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox
before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined
to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the
most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of
unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds,
half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that
its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox,
pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see
frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail,
Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.







 

With regard to Gmail and  POP, if it's been enabled since "Day One" of your account's existence, even if you have not used POP, you have two choices as to how POP will behave if you were to configure an e-mail client program to access the account that way:

  1. Enable POP for all mail (even messages that have already been downloaded)
  2. Enable POP for mail that arrives from now on.
  3. Disable POP   -   this choice, of course, prevents POP access, but it is the third option

All of my Gmail accounts are old enough that POP had still not fallen out of favor when they were set up, which was at least 10 years ago at a minimum.  At the top of the POP section there is a line that reads, "Status: POP is enabled for all mail that has arrived since <account creation date here>."

You are also given a choice about what Gmail should do with it's own copy when a message is accessed using POP via an e-mail client that reads:
                      When messages are accessed with POP, followed by a dropdown box with the following choices:

                                      1. Keep Gmail's copy in the inbox
                                      2. Mark Gmail's copy as read
                                      3. Archive Gmail's copy
                                      4. Delete Gmail's copy

If one plans to access mail from multiple locations on multiple devices using e-mail client programs IMAP is the way to go, and unquestionably.  It keeps things "in sync" across all devices provided that one's filtering is done on the e-mail server side (preferable, as that is performed as the messages arrive) or you have one of your clients that runs 24/7 that applies the filters you set up on the client side to sort messages into your IMAP folders which are seen by all clients.  The second option is far less preferable since if that client that does the sorting goes offline then the sorting itself stops.

I tested all this out via Thunderbird the other day and while it's a simple matter to create IMAP folders from within Thunderbird itself creating the filters in Thunderbird does not cause them to be created on the server side, but only within Thunderbird, so if I were not running that instance of Thunderbird to be the "master sorter" then other clients would be seeing all mail land in the inbox, untouched.  I suspect the same would apply with MS-Outlook, but haven't tested it out yet.

For those using Gmail I wrote a tutorial a couple of years ago on how to create filters and IMAP folders (which Gmail calls labels) under Gmail's web interface with a screen reader: Creating IMAP Labels (Folders) and Filters for Gmail.    Using that method guarantees that the Gmail server will be doing all of the filtering and sorting for you before any one of your e-mail clients, whether ones you're currently using or might set up via IMAP access in the future, will ever gain access to the latest incoming messages.

--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

I have used Thunderbird, but it was a bit much with all the extras, so I went back to Windows Live Mail.
But the eMail to text should work on any eMail program.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Devin Prater
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 10:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

You use Thunderbird, right? I’m starting to get back into using Windows more, and besides Thunderbird being a bit sluggish, it is pretty good.

On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov> wrote:

I don't like doing my eMail on a phone, it's a drag.
I even go the other direction, I text people all the time from my computer's eMail program, and they don't even realize it is coming from computer unless they are familiar with my doing that.
You can do that from your eMail by eMailing their 10-gigit-number at
Domain.com Each phone company has a different domain, Verizon has two of them...
@vtext.com and @vzwpix.com
Somewhere I have an entire list of domains for different phone companies and saved it, but they can be found with a web search for them.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Well I an no doubt
you keep getting called dinosaurs, for not using email on a smart phone, everyone does this now they all say to me, nobody uses email on a computer any more!
To this I say bah humbug, and have been using Outlook Express tweaked version for some years in Windows 7 wi5th no problems. it also gives me access to newsgroups, which surprisingly are still alive out there, and has easy to configure message rules so I can have multiple email lists coming in, each sorted via pop3 to a different folder with no user input plus of course I can have both Imap and pop3 of the same account which lets me see spam folders in some isps emails.
I did try the providers web interfaces and while these can work well, you are at the mercy of web designers who are sadists. By that I mean that you tumble out of bed one day and find the whole user interface has been 'improved' to such an extent you have no idea what to do with it.
I'm just glad that OE is still supported by nvda and works well.
I did not like Live mail as it kept falling over and could not support identities which allows me to effectively keep different parts of my online life apart and not see them till I decide to see that part.

Unfortunately, although the patch works on windows 10, whenever windows does a complete update, it trashes things it does not like including oe, and one has to restore it again, taking up valuable time.
In your issues with Dropbox, I have to say I've had no issues with the latest systems indeed on windows 7, it seems to be faster generally. I do not use it on line only offline though, as if I wanted an on line storage system I'd not be using dropbox as its far too snazzy.


Pandering to the sighted again.

So unfortunately since you now have wlm, you are a bit stuffed as I do not think you can back convert to OE format. What you can do though is find a copy of the stand alone installer and not the stub as they put out latterly.

It was a shame that internet mail and news in 7 was not made accessible as it would have been nice. There is of course Outlook itself, but once again its like buying a combine harvester just cos you want a tractor.

Besides If I had ten pounds for everyone who has had aggro with the 2016 incarnation, I'd be living in style with servants by now.



So rant over, but I basically agree, where are the very easy to use,
non html based simple reliable email and news clients that blind people can use.
Maybe somebody needs to write one.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Garwood" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] Email clients


Hi there,

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using
Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and
uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it.
I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials
installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge.
Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly
with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the
best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now
could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its
shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using
that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now,
thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks
to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I
need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less
sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t
find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter, 2. Is fully
accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and 3. Is able to import
WLM folders and messages.

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my
experiences:

1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about
OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try
that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main
window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be
unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to,
that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader.
Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to
mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a
mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it
was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while
it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of
navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs,
toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use).
Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use
of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I
see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail,
Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.







"Marvin Atkins"
 

Glen,
 
I use the ribbon version of Windows Live Mail and the calendar is reached by pressing Control and the 2 on the numbers row. Control and the number 1 takes me back to the mail. Control and the number 3 takes me to contacts. You can try your version to see If it works.
 
marvin 
 

From: Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 10:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 

Gene,

I have been using Windows Live Mail, the menu version, and I have not found a calendar.

How do I access it?

Thanks.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Have you tried Windows Live Mail?  It is not bloated to a bothersome extent and it is not slow.  It has features like a calendar but they aren't intrusive and you can use the program and never come across them unless you intentionally look for them. 

 

I haven't used thunderbird enough to know if it is slow in general.  I tried it on a machine that is already an old slow machine and it was annoyingly slow at opening messages but I don't know how it is on a fast machine.  However, you are the second person I've seen complain of slowness in the last number of months so that's a little more evidence for it being slow.  But I don't draw conclusions about performance on just two reports.  Five or ten would be much more conclusive since programs can perform differently on different machines even if the machines provide good results with programs in general.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Brandon Cross

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:58 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 

 

On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

That is how it works on my Outlook at work.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of "Marvin Atkins"
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 11:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Glen,

 

I use the ribbon version of Windows Live Mail and the calendar is reached by pressing Control and the 2 on the numbers row. Control and the number 1 takes me back to the mail. Control and the number 3 takes me to contacts. You can try your version to see If it works.

 

marvin 

 

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 10:42 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Gene,

I have been using Windows Live Mail, the menu version, and I have not found a calendar.

How do I access it?

Thanks.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Have you tried Windows Live Mail?  It is not bloated to a bothersome extent and it is not slow.  It has features like a calendar but they aren't intrusive and you can use the program and never come across them unless you intentionally look for them. 

 

I haven't used thunderbird enough to know if it is slow in general.  I tried it on a machine that is already an old slow machine and it was annoyingly slow at opening messages but I don't know how it is on a fast machine.  However, you are the second person I've seen complain of slowness in the last number of months so that's a little more evidence for it being slow.  But I don't draw conclusions about performance on just two reports.  Five or ten would be much more conclusive since programs can perform differently on different machines even if the machines provide good results with programs in general.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Brandon Cross

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 

 

On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"