for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer


Simone Dal Maso
 

Hello,
Just a message to inform you that a new addon is born...
This is still in development stage and is for all people that don't like ribbon.
So, probably for 95% of you :-)))

Alberto Buffolino developed an addon to enhance experience with Ribbon menu. Only in Office products, for the moment.

I copy directly from the readme:

Important things to consider:
1. this add-on is in development;
2. confirmed (by users) to work on Microsoft Office 2019, 365 and 2021;
3. compatibility for old NVDA/Office versions is not guaranteed.
Usage
Simply install, open an Office application, press Alt to access Ribbon, and familiarize with new menu layout.
You can use arrows, tab, enter, esc, quite like in a normal menu. Alt+down/upArrow are supported too, for expanding some controls.
If there are problems (please report), or you want temporarily interact without add-on assistance, press NVDA+space.

Some useful links:
download development version from
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/releases/download/dev/ribbonExplorer-20220112-dev.nvda-addon

For support please use the github page:
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/

Have fun!


Chris Smart
 

Great, except this disincentivizes people from learning to use their software natively! That is not a good thing!
See also, Jaws's "virtual Ribbons". I'd love to know how many people actually use that feature, compared with how many do the work to learn to use the ribbons.

Ribbons have been around for a long long time now people.

P.S. I would love an add-on that turned Word into WordPerfect 5.1+ though. I'd pay money for such magic!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: January 13, 2022 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Hello,
Just a message to inform you that a new addon is born...
This is still in development stage and is for all people that don't like ribbon.
So, probably for 95% of you :-)))

Alberto Buffolino developed an addon to enhance experience with Ribbon menu. Only in Office products, for the moment.

I copy directly from the readme:

Important things to consider:
1. this add-on is in development;
2. confirmed (by users) to work on Microsoft Office 2019, 365 and 2021; 3. compatibility for old NVDA/Office versions is not guaranteed.
Usage
Simply install, open an Office application, press Alt to access Ribbon, and familiarize with new menu layout.
You can use arrows, tab, enter, esc, quite like in a normal menu.
Alt+down/upArrow are supported too, for expanding some controls.
If there are problems (please report), or you want temporarily interact without add-on assistance, press NVDA+space.

Some useful links:
download development version from
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/releases/download/dev/ribbonExplorer-20220112-dev.nvda-addon

For support please use the github page:
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/

Have fun!


Gene
 

I strongly object to methods to avoid using ribbons.  If people have problems learning and using ribbons, it is usually because they were not taught to do so properly.  I created a tutorial which teaches ribbons.  It is a short tutorial.  While it may take some time and practice, I don’t think that, with the proper instruction, people in general should find this particularly difficult to learn and use.  I’ll provide the tutorial below my signature.
 
You are cutting yourself off from instructional material as one disadvantage in avoiding ribbons.  Tutorials for blind computer users use standard ribbons in programs where ribbons are used.  Also, on lists like this, when people discuss how to do things, if a ribbon is involved, instructions are given using standard ribbons. 
 
Also, there may be inconveniences in using methods to avoid ribbons.  I’m not assuming that is the case with this add-on but it is a problem you may run into using this or that method to do so.
 
I hope people will try using my tutorial before deciding whether or not they want to avoid the standard ribbon interface.
 
Under mhy signature is my tutorial 
 
Gene
 
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other
 
ribbons, and see how things are organized.  Ribbons are ribbons, just as menus are menus.
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about, the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the
 
default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split
 
buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right
 
arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short
 
cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as
 
you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.
 
Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so
 
if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to
 
right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in
 
the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right
 
arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up
 
and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try
 
both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work
 
with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options. 
 
I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.
 
and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the
 
training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them
 
which I won't go into here.
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to
 
look at and practice working with ribbons.  
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to
 
move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to
 
move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter
 
or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short
 
cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press
 
escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The
 
important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the
 
menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. 
 
When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means
 
that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon
 
programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind
 
of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to
 
menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon
 
you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and
 
down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You
 
may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category
 
announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar
 
ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is
 
a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you
 
want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard
 
commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Gene
 

Then why do you say great?
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer
 
Great, except this disincentivizes people from learning to use their software natively! That is not a good thing!
See also, Jaws's "virtual Ribbons". I'd love to know how many people actually use that feature, compared with how many do the work to learn to use the ribbons.

Ribbons have been around for a long long time now people.

P.S. I would love an add-on that turned Word into WordPerfect 5.1+ though. I'd pay money for such magic!



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: January 13, 2022 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Hello,
Just a message to inform you that a new addon is born...
This is still in development stage and is for all people that don't like ribbon.
So, probably for 95% of you :-)))

Alberto Buffolino developed an addon to enhance experience with Ribbon menu. Only in Office products, for the moment.

I copy directly from the readme:

Important things to consider:
1. this add-on is in development;
2. confirmed (by users) to work on Microsoft Office 2019, 365 and 2021; 3. compatibility for old NVDA/Office versions is not guaranteed.
Usage
Simply install, open an Office application, press Alt to access Ribbon, and familiarize with new menu layout.
You can use arrows, tab, enter, esc, quite like in a normal menu.
Alt+down/upArrow are supported too, for expanding some controls.
If there are problems (please report), or you want temporarily interact without add-on assistance, press NVDA+space.

Some useful links:
download development version from
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/releases/download/dev/ribbonExplorer-20220112-dev.nvda-addon

For support please use the github page:
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/

Have fun!
















Chris Smart
 

I was trying not to piss on his parade.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 13, 2022 10:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Then why do you say great?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 8:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Great, except this disincentivizes people from learning to use their software natively! That is not a good thing!
See also, Jaws's "virtual Ribbons". I'd love to know how many people actually use that feature, compared with how many do the work to learn to use the ribbons.

Ribbons have been around for a long long time now people.

P.S. I would love an add-on that turned Word into WordPerfect 5.1+ though. I'd pay money for such magic!



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: January 13, 2022 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Hello,
Just a message to inform you that a new addon is born...
This is still in development stage and is for all people that don't like ribbon.
So, probably for 95% of you :-)))

Alberto Buffolino developed an addon to enhance experience with Ribbon menu. Only in Office products, for the moment.

I copy directly from the readme:

Important things to consider:
1. this add-on is in development;
2. confirmed (by users) to work on Microsoft Office 2019, 365 and 2021; 3. compatibility for old NVDA/Office versions is not guaranteed.
Usage
Simply install, open an Office application, press Alt to access Ribbon, and familiarize with new menu layout.
You can use arrows, tab, enter, esc, quite like in a normal menu.
Alt+down/upArrow are supported too, for expanding some controls.
If there are problems (please report), or you want temporarily interact without add-on assistance, press NVDA+space.

Some useful links:
download development version from
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/releases/download/dev/ribbonExplorer-20220112-dev.nvda-addon

For support please use the github page:
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/

Have fun!















Gene
 

I forgot to mention another place where you are cutting yourself off from help if you don’t use standard ribbons.  Windows 10 and 11 use ribbons in some places.  Training materials for Windows use the standard ribbon interface.  Messages on lists like this use the standard ribbon interface as well.
 
Gene


 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM, Gene wrote:
I strongly object to methods to avoid using ribbons. 
-
As do I.  But this is not a criticism of anyone putting in any coding effort, but it is a criticism of what it's focused on.

Let's get real here, people - The ribbon interface has been the standard interface in Office itself and most of Windows for well over a decade now.  It is the native interface.  Learn to use it.

I am so over the, "Oh, I loved menus and hate the ribbons!," complaints.  First, the ribbons are menus, just with traversal implemented slightly differently.  Second, they're native, they need to be learned.  Whether you like them or not has zero relevance.

If you are going to use a computer (including a Mac, these days) you need to understand and use the ribbon interface.  It really is that simple, and getting proficiency with the ribbon interface is also simple.

If the amount of time whining about the ribbon interface were spent learning it the whining would stop.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

There are ways of expressing appreciation without possibly confusing what you are saying.  You are not saying the add-on is great.  You are expressing appreciation for the work and the intention to help.  I have no objection to that.  But it is important to separate that from your opinions about the add-on itself.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer
 

I was trying not to piss on his parade.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 13, 2022 10:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Then why do you say great?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Chris Smart

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 8:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Great, except this disincentivizes people from learning to use their software natively! That is not a good thing!
See also, Jaws's "virtual Ribbons". I'd love to know how many people actually use that feature, compared with how many do the work to learn to use the ribbons.

Ribbons have been around for a long long time now people.

P.S. I would love an add-on that turned Word into WordPerfect 5.1+ though. I'd pay money for such magic!



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: January 13, 2022 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Hello,
Just a message to inform you that a new addon is born...
This is still in development stage and is for all people that don't like ribbon.
So, probably for 95% of you :-)))

Alberto Buffolino developed an addon to enhance experience with Ribbon menu. Only in Office products, for the moment.

I copy directly from the readme:

Important things to consider:
1. this add-on is in development;
2. confirmed (by users) to work on Microsoft Office 2019, 365 and 2021; 3. compatibility for old NVDA/Office versions is not guaranteed.
Usage
Simply install, open an Office application, press Alt to access Ribbon, and familiarize with new menu layout.
You can use arrows, tab, enter, esc, quite like in a normal menu.
Alt+down/upArrow are supported too, for expanding some controls.
If there are problems (please report), or you want temporarily interact without add-on assistance, press NVDA+space.

Some useful links:
download development version from
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/releases/download/dev/ribbonExplorer-20220112-dev.nvda-addon

For support please use the github page:
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/

Have fun!















Chris Smart
 

Perhaps I was being sarcastic.

I trust you to draw your own conclusion.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 13, 2022 10:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

There are ways of expressing appreciation without possibly confusing what you are saying.  You are not saying the add-on is great.  You are expressing appreciation for the work and the intention to help.  I have no objection to that.  But it is important to separate that from your opinions about the add-on itself.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 9:19 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

I was trying not to piss on his parade.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 13, 2022 10:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Then why do you say great?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 8:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Great, except this disincentivizes people from learning to use their software natively! That is not a good thing!
See also, Jaws's "virtual Ribbons". I'd love to know how many people actually use that feature, compared with how many do the work to learn to use the ribbons.

Ribbons have been around for a long long time now people.

P.S. I would love an add-on that turned Word into WordPerfect 5.1+ though. I'd pay money for such magic!



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: January 13, 2022 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Hello,
Just a message to inform you that a new addon is born...
This is still in development stage and is for all people that don't like ribbon.
So, probably for 95% of you :-)))

Alberto Buffolino developed an addon to enhance experience with Ribbon menu. Only in Office products, for the moment.

I copy directly from the readme:

Important things to consider:
1. this add-on is in development;
2. confirmed (by users) to work on Microsoft Office 2019, 365 and 2021; 3. compatibility for old NVDA/Office versions is not guaranteed.
Usage
Simply install, open an Office application, press Alt to access Ribbon, and familiarize with new menu layout.
You can use arrows, tab, enter, esc, quite like in a normal menu.
Alt+down/upArrow are supported too, for expanding some controls.
If there are problems (please report), or you want temporarily interact without add-on assistance, press NVDA+space.

Some useful links:
download development version from
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/releases/download/dev/ribbonExplorer-20220112-dev.nvda-addon

For support please use the github page:
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/

Have fun!














 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:42 AM, Chris Smart wrote:
Perhaps I was being sarcastic.
-
Some of us caught that.  Sarcasm and irony are harder to catch without literal tone of voice, but can sometimes (this is one) be accurately deduced by surrounding material.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

Thats true.

I can use ribbons, but where I can I choose not to.

Office ribbon, I don't like it but I do use it from time to time but if I could turn it off I would probably do so.

In windows 10 I have hacks that make it go away.

I don't need crappy ribbons.

On the systems I do administration on I rarely need to access a ribbon unless I create a folder somewhere.

On my system there are a few things but not many that need me to get ribbon access.

I can use ribbons but I don't care to, I like the old way, after all if it aint broken and if I can hack the os to make that not do whatever so much the better.

I use winaero tweaker to hack the os so it looks normal like I am used to.

Its different publically but on my private system, well it is mine so.



On 14/01/2022 4:24 am, Gene wrote:
I forgot to mention another place where you are cutting yourself off from help if you don’t use standard ribbons.  Windows 10 and 11 use ribbons in some places.  Training materials for Windows use the standard ribbon interface.  Messages on lists like this use the standard ribbon interface as well.
 
Gene


 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:15 AM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
I can use ribbons, but where I can I choose not to.
-
And it's the first part of that sentence that makes all the difference in the world.

For people such as yourself, have at it.  I am not criticizing anyone's choice to use what they wish so long as they know how to use what "comes with" when they need to.

I have seen so many instances of "deer frozen in the headlights" from users of things like Open Shell, Start 10, JAWS Virtual Ribbon Menu, and the like when they are unexpectedly faced with using another computer somewhere, and having no earthly idea how.  That is, quite simply, bad.  It is also, quite simply, unnecessary.

I do not recall a time up through and including Windows 7 when as the UI changed people were not expected to change with it.  Then, suddenly, Windows 7 and earlier became this "idealized time" because things had been consistent (or very nearly) long enough that everything was ingrained.  The shift to ribbons in Office during the Windows 7 era was seen as an affront by many (and even myself, at first - but I know once MS chooses a direction for the UI, they generally stick with it - and Office was and remains a flagship product).  While I very strongly preferred menus then, I also knew that it was throwing away energy to complain about them rather than learn them, because they weren't going anywhere.

Now, ribbons have been around for as long as menus had been, yet there exists a significant contingent, and it is a much larger one proportionally in the blind an visually-impaired community, who still have no idea how they work because they've been using these various shells as crutches for many years now and complain about the ribbons without ever having made any significant effort to learn them to begin with.  They were flummoxed when they came on the scene, adopted the crutches, and have stuck with them ever since.

It's one thing if you're using a real crutch to help you get through a temporary phase when you're injured, or even permanently if you need it after an injury resolves but not back to perfect health.  People would look at someone who did not need a real crutch very strangely were they to keep using it long after the period of necessity.  That's precisely what's happening here in the software world, and I make no apology for looking askance at the practice.

The ribbons are accessible, and easily so.  Learn how to access them easily rather than fighting them if you are someone who does not know how to use them.  If you do know how, and choose a different way, that's an informed decision and one I cannot criticize.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Grate is used sometimes as a sarcastic term. For example “my car died. I’ll be late for work, just grate!” I don’t’ know where else this is used in the world, but hope this lesson in English  and colloquialism helps a bit.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 7:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Then why do you say great?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 8:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Great, except this disincentivizes people from learning to use their software natively! That is not a good thing!
See also, Jaws's "virtual Ribbons". I'd love to know how many people actually use that feature, compared with how many do the work to learn to use the ribbons.

Ribbons have been around for a long long time now people.

P.S. I would love an add-on that turned Word into WordPerfect 5.1+ though. I'd pay money for such magic!



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: January 13, 2022 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Hello,
Just a message to inform you that a new addon is born...
This is still in development stage and is for all people that don't like ribbon.
So, probably for 95% of you :-)))

Alberto Buffolino developed an addon to enhance experience with Ribbon menu. Only in Office products, for the moment.

I copy directly from the readme:

Important things to consider:
1. this add-on is in development;
2. confirmed (by users) to work on Microsoft Office 2019, 365 and 2021; 3. compatibility for old NVDA/Office versions is not guaranteed.
Usage
Simply install, open an Office application, press Alt to access Ribbon, and familiarize with new menu layout.
You can use arrows, tab, enter, esc, quite like in a normal menu.
Alt+down/upArrow are supported too, for expanding some controls.
If there are problems (please report), or you want temporarily interact without add-on assistance, press NVDA+space.

Some useful links:
download development version from
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/releases/download/dev/ribbonExplorer-20220112-dev.nvda-addon

For support please use the github page:
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/

Have fun!















Janet Brandly
 

Sounds like a great addon. Please keep us posted.

Janet

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: January 13, 2022 7:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Hello,
Just a message to inform you that a new addon is born...
This is still in development stage and is for all people that don't like ribbon.
So, probably for 95% of you :-)))

Alberto Buffolino developed an addon to enhance experience with Ribbon menu. Only in Office products, for the moment.

I copy directly from the readme:

Important things to consider:
1. this add-on is in development;
2. confirmed (by users) to work on Microsoft Office 2019, 365 and 2021; 3. compatibility for old NVDA/Office versions is not guaranteed.
Usage
Simply install, open an Office application, press Alt to access Ribbon, and familiarize with new menu layout.
You can use arrows, tab, enter, esc, quite like in a normal menu.
Alt+down/upArrow are supported too, for expanding some controls.
If there are problems (please report), or you want temporarily interact without add-on assistance, press NVDA+space.

Some useful links:
download development version from
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/releases/download/dev/ribbonExplorer-20220112-dev.nvda-addon

For support please use the github page:
https://github.com/ABuffEr/ribbonExplorer/

Have fun!


Janet Brandly
 

Hi Gene,

 

Thanks for this. I’ve never really understood split buttons.

 

Janet

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 13, 2022 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

I strongly object to methods to avoid using ribbons.  If people have problems learning and using ribbons, it is usually because they were not taught to do so properly.  I created a tutorial which teaches ribbons.  It is a short tutorial.  While it may take some time and practice, I don’t think that, with the proper instruction, people in general should find this particularly difficult to learn and use.  I’ll provide the tutorial below my signature.

 

You are cutting yourself off from instructional material as one disadvantage in avoiding ribbons.  Tutorials for blind computer users use standard ribbons in programs where ribbons are used.  Also, on lists like this, when people discuss how to do things, if a ribbon is involved, instructions are given using standard ribbons. 

 

Also, there may be inconveniences in using methods to avoid ribbons.  I’m not assuming that is the case with this add-on but it is a problem you may run into using this or that method to do so.

 

I hope people will try using my tutorial before deciding whether or not they want to avoid the standard ribbon interface.

 

Under mhy signature is my tutorial 

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other

 

ribbons, and see how things are organized.  Ribbons are ribbons, just as menus are menus.

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about, the split button. 

One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the

 

default action.  Let's take an example. 

Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split

 

buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right

 

arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short

 

cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as

 

you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.

 

Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so

 

if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to

 

right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in

 

the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right

 

arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up

 

and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try

 

both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work

 

with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 

Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options. 

 

I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.

 

and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the

 

training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them

 

which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to

 

look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:

Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.

You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 

To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one

direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to

 

move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to

 

move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.

So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter

 

or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 

But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short

 

cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press

 

escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 

Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.

You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The

 

important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the

 

menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. 

 

When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means

 

that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon

 

programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind

 

of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.

To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to

 

menu. 

You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon

 

you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and

 

down arrow.

Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You

 

may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category

 

announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar

 

ribbon. 

there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 

As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is

 

a category you want to look through. 

Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.

Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you

 

want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 

Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs

that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard

 

commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Gene
 

I explain split buttons as the first thing in my tutorial.  If you don’t understand them, even if you don’t want to learn ribbons or already know them, the first section would help you understand split buttons.  They are used in ribbons but they are used elsewhere as well.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer
 

Hi Gene,

 

Thanks for this. I’ve never really understood split buttons.

 

Janet

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 13, 2022 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

I strongly object to methods to avoid using ribbons.  If people have problems learning and using ribbons, it is usually because they were not taught to do so properly.  I created a tutorial which teaches ribbons.  It is a short tutorial.  While it may take some time and practice, I don’t think that, with the proper instruction, people in general should find this particularly difficult to learn and use.  I’ll provide the tutorial below my signature.

 

You are cutting yourself off from instructional material as one disadvantage in avoiding ribbons.  Tutorials for blind computer users use standard ribbons in programs where ribbons are used.  Also, on lists like this, when people discuss how to do things, if a ribbon is involved, instructions are given using standard ribbons. 

 

Also, there may be inconveniences in using methods to avoid ribbons.  I’m not assuming that is the case with this add-on but it is a problem you may run into using this or that method to do so.

 

I hope people will try using my tutorial before deciding whether or not they want to avoid the standard ribbon interface.

 

Under mhy signature is my tutorial 

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other

 

ribbons, and see how things are organized.  Ribbons are ribbons, just as menus are menus.

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about, the split button. 

One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the

 

default action.  Let's take an example. 

Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split

 

buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right

 

arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short

 

cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as

 

you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.

 

Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so

 

if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to

 

right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in

 

the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right

 

arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up

 

and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try

 

both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work

 

with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 

Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options. 

 

I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.

 

and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the

 

training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them

 

which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to

 

look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:

Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.

You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 

To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one

direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to

 

move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to

 

move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.

So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter

 

or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 

But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short

 

cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press

 

escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 

Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.

You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The

 

important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the

 

menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. 

 

When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means

 

that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon

 

programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind

 

of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.

To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to

 

menu. 

You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon

 

you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and

 

down arrow.

Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You

 

may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category

 

announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar

 

ribbon. 

there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 

As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is

 

a category you want to look through. 

Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.

Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you

 

want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 

Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs

that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard

 

commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 01:07 PM, Gene wrote:
They [split buttons] are used in ribbons but they are used elsewhere as well.
-
Just want to reinforce this point.  Split buttons, while used in ribbons, are also used all over the place and have been around for a very long time.

It's worth reading Gene's tutorial just for the split button part if you feel unfamiliar or uncomfortable with split buttons.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

Hi all,

I wrote about the below thought briefly on add-ons list but I think it would be helpful to share:

Although I personally believe that it is important to work with the native interface, I also think it is important to let people showcase their skills through an add-on like this; who knows, some people would appreciate this add-on. Looking at the source code level (because that's how I review add-ons), it is one of those rare gems that is worthy of preservation simply because it is well documented at the source code level; plus, it gives a good justification for developers and taught me something to think about for parts of my own add-ons. Apart from license (the add-on is licensed under GNU general public license 3 as opposed to NVDA which is licensed under GPL 2), I think the add-on will be well received, similar to SystrayList add-on (particularly for people who were used to other screen readers).

Cheers,

Joseph


Simone Dal Maso
 

Hello,
just a short answer.
This addon was developed with the idea that people can choose a different type of interface.
All people should know how ribbon work and read tutorials and so on.
But then, like sight people can do, we can have a different type of approach and interface.

For example, I know very well the file explorer ribbon interface of windows10 and windows11. I teach this too, since I make lessons for visual impaired.
But on my computer, I use all utilities that remove the stupid ribbon interface and give me the classic menu bar.
This because ribbon for me is a terrible interface. So I have the opportunity to remove it, and my brain thanks me!
But it absolutely be clear that people must know them.
Anyway, I simply wrote a message to inform the list of this addon. I'm not involved on its development.


 

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 03:29 AM, Simone Dal Maso wrote:
But then, like sight people can do, we can have a different type of approach and interface.
-
Which right there is the nonsense part.  I am sighted, we don't, and can't, have a different type of approach without the use of things like Classic Shell, Start10, or similar and that does NOT extend to the ribbon interface in programs.

I am universally critical of all of these "skinning" type programs (whether visible skinning or virtual skinning) because the only thing I've seen them do is create unawareness of how to use native interfaces, plain and simple.

They exist, people have the absolute right to use them, and I have the absolute right to discuss why I think they are very bad ideas and to get people to consider whether they actually want to use them or not, which is all I was trying to do.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)