Topics

Free JAWS licence that was anounced today

Sky Mundell
 

Hello guys . I do agree with everybody about what they're saying. However, I
am going to point something out to you, and that is, as a 6 year adaptive
tech trainer who has trained blind students in screen readers, I have to say
that there are folks out there that won't give up there screen reader too
easily. As an example, I do have friends out there that know that NVDA
exists, and so on and so forth, but a lot of them think that if something is
cheaper, it is inferior. I'll give you an example. I do have a friend in
California who has heard of NVDA, and her blind friends know that NVDA
exists, and they have tried it but they end up going back to JAWS because
its what they know. Also Many of the institutions that I've come across have
never heard of NVDA, or if they have heard of it, they assume that it is
incomplete or inferior because they have seem more than one person use JAWS
and iPhones so they think, all blind folks use, are JAWS screen reader, and
iPhones. Which, as you and I know, is not true. As, while JAWS and iPhone's
are certainly used, not everybody uses, or cannot afford, either JAWS, or
iPhone. Another example is that I have a relative that works at a
university, and they use JAWS and I bet if they have heard of NVDA they
would be reluctant to try it because they would, once again, assume it is
incomplete, and inferior. Sadly, there is no support for NVDA in the school
districts that I am aware of where I am. I am certainly in favor of client
choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be
real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone
trying it out.

 

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 02:02 PM, Sky Mundell wrote:
I am certainly in favor of client
choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be
real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone
trying it out.
And having slogged that road I can say you're correct.  That being said, it's only if we keep beating the NVDA-option drum that it will ever make inroads in both commercial and academic environments to a much greater extent than it already has.

JAWS being the "granddaddy of all screen readers" means that it has a massively huge head start.  But I think Vispero sees the writing on the wall, as both NVDA and Narrator are both strong competitors, and will only keep becoming stronger ones.  I believe that's why the whole new subscription licensing came into existence.  People are now balking at what had historically been asked as far as price for JAWS.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

Sky Mundell
 

Correct! I totally get your point and I agree with you 100%.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 11:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Free JAWS licence that was anounced today

 

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 02:02 PM, Sky Mundell wrote:

I am certainly in favor of client
choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be
real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone
trying it out.

And having slogged that road I can say you're correct.  That being said, it's only if we keep beating the NVDA-option drum that it will ever make inroads in both commercial and academic environments to a much greater extent than it already has.

JAWS being the "granddaddy of all screen readers" means that it has a massively huge head start.  But I think Vispero sees the writing on the wall, as both NVDA and Narrator are both strong competitors, and will only keep becoming stronger ones.  I believe that's why the whole new subscription licensing came into existence.  People are now balking at what had historically been asked as far as price for JAWS.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

 

also many people have told me that nvda is not as secure as jaws which
i think is totally wrong.

On 3/23/20, Sky Mundell <skyt@...> wrote:
Correct! I totally get your point and I agree with you 100%.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 11:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Free JAWS licence that was anounced today



On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 02:02 PM, Sky Mundell wrote:

I am certainly in favor of client
choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be
real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone
trying it out.

And having slogged that road I can say you're correct. That being said,
it's only if we keep beating the NVDA-option drum that it will ever make
inroads in both commercial and academic environments to a much greater
extent than it already has.

JAWS being the "granddaddy of all screen readers" means that it has a
massively huge head start. But I think Vispero sees the writing on the
wall, as both NVDA and Narrator are both strong competitors, and will only
keep becoming stronger ones. I believe that's why the whole new
subscription licensing came into existence. People are now balking at what
had historically been asked as far as price for JAWS.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

~ Madonna










--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
@austin
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3

Angel
 

Don’t most schools use Chrome Book.  Which has its own screen reader?

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Sky Mundell
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 2:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Free JAWS licence that was anounced today

 

Hello guys . I do agree with everybody about what they're saying. However, I

am going to point something out to you, and that is, as a 6 year adaptive

tech trainer who has trained blind students in screen readers, I have to say

that there are folks out there that won't give up there screen reader too

easily. As an example, I do have friends out there that know that NVDA

exists, and so on and so forth, but a lot of them think that if something is

cheaper, it is inferior. I'll give you an example. I do have a friend in

California who has heard of NVDA, and her blind friends know that NVDA

exists, and they have tried it but they end up going back to JAWS because

its what they know. Also Many of the institutions that I've come across have

never heard of NVDA, or if they have heard of it, they assume that it is

incomplete or inferior because they have seem more than one person use JAWS

and iPhones so they think, all blind folks use, are JAWS screen reader, and

iPhones. Which, as you and I know, is not true. As, while JAWS and iPhone's

are certainly used, not everybody uses, or cannot afford, either JAWS, or

iPhone. Another example is that I have a relative that works at a

university, and they use JAWS and I bet if they have heard of NVDA they

would be reluctant to try it because they would, once again, assume it is

incomplete, and inferior. Sadly,  there is no support for NVDA in the school

districts that I am aware of where I am. I am certainly in favor of client

choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be

real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone

trying it out.

 

 

 

 


Virus-free. www.avast.com

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I also have friends that don't want to try NVDA. I'm sure if we keep spreading the word about NVDA, It will be used both in commercial as well as home settings. Last year my sister gave me the annual home license for Jaws for muy birthday but I told her not too long ago that I wouldn't be renewing it this year because of the high cost.


Rosemarie

On 3/23/2020 11:02 AM, Sky Mundell wrote:
Hello guys . I do agree with everybody about what they're saying. However, I
am going to point something out to you, and that is, as a 6 year adaptive
tech trainer who has trained blind students in screen readers, I have to say
that there are folks out there that won't give up there screen reader too
easily. As an example, I do have friends out there that know that NVDA
exists, and so on and so forth, but a lot of them think that if something is
cheaper, it is inferior. I'll give you an example. I do have a friend in
California who has heard of NVDA, and her blind friends know that NVDA
exists, and they have tried it but they end up going back to JAWS because
its what they know. Also Many of the institutions that I've come across have
never heard of NVDA, or if they have heard of it, they assume that it is
incomplete or inferior because they have seem more than one person use JAWS
and iPhones so they think, all blind folks use, are JAWS screen reader, and
iPhones. Which, as you and I know, is not true. As, while JAWS and iPhone's
are certainly used, not everybody uses, or cannot afford, either JAWS, or
iPhone. Another example is that I have a relative that works at a
university, and they use JAWS and I bet if they have heard of NVDA they
would be reluctant to try it because they would, once again, assume it is
incomplete, and inferior. Sadly, there is no support for NVDA in the school
districts that I am aware of where I am. I am certainly in favor of client
choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be
real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone
trying it out.


Jesse Farquharson
 

On 3/23/2020 2:49 PM, Austin Pinto wrote:
also many people have told me that nvda is not as secure as jaws which
i think is totally wrong.
I have heard this, so many times, and it takes me everything I have not to literally laugh in the faces of those I hear that from.
JAWS is a closed source program, just like, for instance, Microsoft Word or Outlook. That means that you can't crack them open and see what they're doing, and as such, for all you know you could be installing key loggers on your computer. And yet, schools all over the world use both programs.

JAWS could be a simple screenreader, but as I said, it's closed source. So the security risks are unknown.


NVDA, being an opensource program, means that you can have someone who is qualified come in to externally audit the software and say, "yes, this program is absolutely safe," if you are inclined to do so.


There are only real risks when you install addons from unknown sources, as all of those which are on the community addons page have been verified as safe by the rest of the community.


So really, which is the bigger risk here?

On 3/23/20, Sky Mundell <skyt@...> wrote:
Correct! I totally get your point and I agree with you 100%.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 11:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Free JAWS licence that was anounced today



On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 02:02 PM, Sky Mundell wrote:

I am certainly in favor of client
choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be
real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone
trying it out.

And having slogged that road I can say you're correct. That being said,
it's only if we keep beating the NVDA-option drum that it will ever make
inroads in both commercial and academic environments to a much greater
extent than it already has.

JAWS being the "granddaddy of all screen readers" means that it has a
massively huge head start. But I think Vispero sees the writing on the
wall, as both NVDA and Narrator are both strong competitors, and will only
keep becoming stronger ones. I believe that's why the whole new
subscription licensing came into existence. People are now balking at what
had historically been asked as far as price for JAWS.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

~ Madonna










 

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:24 PM, Jesse Farquharson wrote:
an opensource program, means that you can have someone who is qualified come in to externally audit the software and say, "yes, this program is absolutely safe," if you are inclined to do so.
Yep, and not just for NVDA.  It seems that slowly, but surely, many IT professionals are getting "the powers that be" to recognize this.  There is far less resistance to open source software in the business market than there once was.  But since that resistance started out as absolute, it's still nowhere close to the degree of acceptance that should prevail.

That being said, there are many ways that current security suites use to analyze closed source code to see if it's been compromised.  There is good reason, very good reason, to believe that commercial software makers are not going to rob their customers (of passwords or cash, anyway - data is another matter altogether).  
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

Devin Prater
 

At the AT department I work for, we teach NVDA. We don’t put $1000 licenses, or even $100 ones, on our clients. Really, I think all that NVDA needs now is good hints, like JAWS has “tutor messages.” I know, there is an add-on, where one has to remember to press a keyboard command to open a help message, but if we have help messages built in, and extendable by other addons to other apps, configurable right from the welcome dialog, and turned off for people updating NVDA, NVDA will be even easier to learn. My students have me to teach them, but not all blind people are so fortunate.

Let’s say that NVDA does become the industry standard. What then? There are professionals who just dump equipment on blind people’s doorstep and leave it for blind people to learn. There are blind people who are told to just go buy a PC and have sighted help to slap NVDA on it, with the blind person knowing little to nothing about Windows. Sure, blind people may always need training, but they understand the iPhone quickly, and JAWS too. Can’t we emulate them at least as far as giving good beginner hints on using controls, or even basic tips for using Windows, using Tab, Arrows, Windows key, and maybe a link to Windows keyboard commands? Narrator does some of this, and I could see it, after its web navigation is tightened up, gaining lots of usage for it.

On Mar 23, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:24 PM, Jesse Farquharson wrote:
an opensource program, means that you can have someone who is qualified come in to externally audit the software and say, "yes, this program is absolutely safe," if you are inclined to do so.
Yep, and not just for NVDA.  It seems that slowly, but surely, many IT professionals are getting "the powers that be" to recognize this.  There is far less resistance to open source software in the business market than there once was.  But since that resistance started out as absolute, it's still nowhere close to the degree of acceptance that should prevail.

That being said, there are many ways that current security suites use to analyze closed source code to see if it's been compromised.  There is good reason, very good reason, to believe that commercial software makers are not going to rob their customers (of passwords or cash, anyway - data is another matter altogether).  
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 
 

 

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:57 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
but they understand the iPhone quickly, and JAWS too
I disagree with this statement, particularly with regard to JAWS.  I've been tutoring for years for JAWS, and I have yet to have a client understand it quickly, and that's even for folks who were very sophisticated Windows users prior to losing their site.

I had one client (and, yes, I know that one is not a valid sample) who could use the iPhone very proficiently, including VoiceOver, but who could never master the rotor (and not secondary to any motor issues).

After decades in IT one of the claims, about anything technology-related, that instantly makes me cringe is, "It's intuitive."   There is no such thing as a very highly featured system that is intuitive in any meaningful sense of that word.   Some are easier than others to get the hang of the basics, but all require intensive practice to master even the subset of non-basic commands a given user might use.   Microsoft Word is the perfect example of that.  It's dirt simple to create a dirt simple document, but when you start going beyond that, things get complicated and you can end up "in the weeds" with unbelievable speed if you try to guess what you need to do.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

Gene
 

NVDA isn’t as user definable as JAWS.  It meets the needs of a lot of people but there are ways JAWS can be tailored, without scripts, using frames, that can meet the needs of many people in ways NVDA can’t, by allowing those without scripting knowledge to customize  it much more easily and conveniently than waiting for scripts from someone.  Years ago, I was helping someone who needed to sign into a virtual private network, have certain specific thihngs read, and have certain things read or repeated with specific commands.  Using frames, I was able to do these things.  I don’t have scripting knowledge and I would think many rehabilitation workers know how to work with frames who don’t know how to script.  And some or perhaps many users do as well.  Until NVDA is user definable in the same way, it will be at a disadvantage in arenas where customization is necessary that doesn’t require scripts.
 
There is no one best or one right screen-reader.  If NVDA is to be the industry standard, it must be more user definable. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Free JAWS licence that was anounced today
 
At the AT department I work for, we teach NVDA. We don’t put $1000 licenses, or even $100 ones, on our clients. Really, I think all that NVDA needs now is good hints, like JAWS has “tutor messages.” I know, there is an add-on, where one has to remember to press a keyboard command to open a help message, but if we have help messages built in, and extendable by other addons to other apps, configurable right from the welcome dialog, and turned off for people updating NVDA, NVDA will be even easier to learn. My students have me to teach them, but not all blind people are so fortunate.
 
Let’s say that NVDA does become the industry standard. What then? There are professionals who just dump equipment on blind people’s doorstep and leave it for blind people to learn. There are blind people who are told to just go buy a PC and have sighted help to slap NVDA on it, with the blind person knowing little to nothing about Windows. Sure, blind people may always need training, but they understand the iPhone quickly, and JAWS too. Can’t we emulate them at least as far as giving good beginner hints on using controls, or even basic tips for using Windows, using Tab, Arrows, Windows key, and maybe a link to Windows keyboard commands? Narrator does some of this, and I could see it, after its web navigation is tightened up, gaining lots of usage for it.

On Mar 23, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
 
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:24 PM, Jesse Farquharson wrote:
an opensource program, means that you can have someone who is qualified come in to externally audit the software and say, "yes, this program is absolutely safe," if you are inclined to do so.
Yep, and not just for NVDA.  It seems that slowly, but surely, many IT professionals are getting "the powers that be" to recognize this.  There is far less resistance to open source software in the business market than there once was.  But since that resistance started out as absolute, it's still nowhere close to the degree of acceptance that should prevail.

That being said, there are many ways that current security suites use to analyze closed source code to see if it's been compromised.  There is good reason, very good reason, to believe that commercial software makers are not going to rob their customers (of passwords or cash, anyway - data is another matter altogether). 
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna


 

 
 

Quentin Christensen
 

I'm happy to explore the idea of hints or more help for new users if those with ideas on that want to contact me.

The open source being insecure argument is being disproved even more with every passing week.  Did you know 20% of code created for US government organisations now has to be open source?  Or that if you use a Windows computer, it includes open source code?  I've recently updated our Corporate and Government page to include more info on that: https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/#OpenSource

Re the idea that NVDA is inferior because of the price, perhaps expressing it differently would help?  EG it is not that NVDA costs less to make than other programs, or is made with less care and attention.  Rather, that in creating a product which actually meets the needs of its audience, we have looked at not only the technical requirements of the software itself, but also the fact that the majority of blind people around the world have less access to education, employment and income, therefore, what good is a solution which meets the technical need but is inaccessible due to the prohibitive financial burden unnecessarily placed on end users?  NV Access have pursued a funding model which means we get the majority of our income from corporations like Microsoft, Mozilla, Google, etc, rather than the end user.  Therefore, NVDA is the most ethical screen reader available.




On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 9:17 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:57 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
but they understand the iPhone quickly, and JAWS too
I disagree with this statement, particularly with regard to JAWS.  I've been tutoring for years for JAWS, and I have yet to have a client understand it quickly, and that's even for folks who were very sophisticated Windows users prior to losing their site.

I had one client (and, yes, I know that one is not a valid sample) who could use the iPhone very proficiently, including VoiceOver, but who could never master the rotor (and not secondary to any motor issues).

After decades in IT one of the claims, about anything technology-related, that instantly makes me cringe is, "It's intuitive."   There is no such thing as a very highly featured system that is intuitive in any meaningful sense of that word.   Some are easier than others to get the hang of the basics, but all require intensive practice to master even the subset of non-basic commands a given user might use.   Microsoft Word is the perfect example of that.  It's dirt simple to create a dirt simple document, but when you start going beyond that, things get complicated and you can end up "in the weeds" with unbelievable speed if you try to guess what you need to do.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi Quentin,

RE: Control usage assistant addon

Is the type of addon they are looking for, like the control usage assistant? In short what it does, is if you press the NVDA key and the letter H it will tell you what the focused element does. For example, if focused on a button, and you press Insert + H then you might hear "press the Enter key or spacebar". If focused on an element it will tell you what to do, and then you can press the Esc key. It works with NVDA 2019.3.1 but I have not tried it on 2020.1 beta yet as I have only just downloaded it.

When you are focused on an element, as you press Insert + H it will say "control usage assistant" every time and then give the relevant details for that focused object.

I think that if he suppresses NVDA from saying "control usage assistant" every time it wouldn't get annoying after a few times.

A general comment that I have is that the name is not necessarily readily identifiable as to what it does. It hints at usage and hints at assistant but I was not sure why the word control was used initially? When looking on the next page to see what it does, it explains it as an assistant for the focused control that you are on. Perhaps it could be called "focused control assistant". Also, should a brief one liner on the main addon page be added underneath each addon so that people have a better idea of what each addon is for before clicking on each one to find out what it does.


RE: Tip of the day addon

Another addon is tip of the day. It will give you little tips on how to use NVDA, but it has not been updated to work with NVDA 2019.3.1 and beyond. 



I used to install it on computers where the person was a new user when nvda was installed onto there computer.

I think Deric was the guy who made it. I can not remember what the last version of nvda it worked on maybe 2019.2.1??? or earlier?

That add on would be worth updating to work with a very new user to nvda.


Gene NZ

On 24/03/2020 1:22 pm, Quentin Christensen wrote:
I'm happy to explore the idea of hints or more help for new users if those with ideas on that want to contact me.

The open source being insecure argument is being disproved even more with every passing week.  Did you know 20% of code created for US government organisations now has to be open source?  Or that if you use a Windows computer, it includes open source code?  I've recently updated our Corporate and Government page to include more info on that: https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/#OpenSource

Re the idea that NVDA is inferior because of the price, perhaps expressing it differently would help?  EG it is not that NVDA costs less to make than other programs, or is made with less care and attention.  Rather, that in creating a product which actually meets the needs of its audience, we have looked at not only the technical requirements of the software itself, but also the fact that the majority of blind people around the world have less access to education, employment and income, therefore, what good is a solution which meets the technical need but is inaccessible due to the prohibitive financial burden unnecessarily placed on end users?  NV Access have pursued a funding model which means we get the majority of our income from corporations like Microsoft, Mozilla, Google, etc, rather than the end user.  Therefore, NVDA is the most ethical screen reader available.




On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 9:17 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:57 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
but they understand the iPhone quickly, and JAWS too
I disagree with this statement, particularly with regard to JAWS.  I've been tutoring for years for JAWS, and I have yet to have a client understand it quickly, and that's even for folks who were very sophisticated Windows users prior to losing their site.

I had one client (and, yes, I know that one is not a valid sample) who could use the iPhone very proficiently, including VoiceOver, but who could never master the rotor (and not secondary to any motor issues).

After decades in IT one of the claims, about anything technology-related, that instantly makes me cringe is, "It's intuitive."   There is no such thing as a very highly featured system that is intuitive in any meaningful sense of that word.   Some are easier than others to get the hang of the basics, but all require intensive practice to master even the subset of non-basic commands a given user might use.   Microsoft Word is the perfect example of that.  It's dirt simple to create a dirt simple document, but when you start going beyond that, things get complicated and you can end up "in the weeds" with unbelievable speed if you try to guess what you need to do.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Hi,

Ah, talking about another brainchild of mine?

This add-on was named “Control Usage Assistant” as it is meant to emulate context-sensitive help functionality found in JAWS. The name is a bit vague, and that was intentional: at one point, I thought about expanding it to cover navigator objects, but decided against it due to complexity involved.

In recent months, Control Usage Assistant added ability to tell you help information for more specialized controls, such as search box in Start menu, table navigation and what not, along with adding a browse mode window to go with it. Perhaps I might as well make it more useful by providing touch-friendly and/or braille user centric messages.

By the way, Control Usage Assistant is part of a growing number of add-ons where a prospective NVDA feature shows up as an add-on first before going to NVDA:

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2699

I maintain a private (and publicly visible) branch on my NVDA source code repo where I work on NVDA Core version of Control Usage Assistant i.e. built-in context-sensitive help functionality. Other add-ons that have gone through this route include significant parts of Windows 10 App Essentials, right mouse click gesture and touch typing toggle from Enhanced Touch Gestures, the entirety of Focus Highlight and Screen Curtain (maybe majority of Focus Highlight, I believe), among others (the opposite (i.e. something that was part of NVDA but now an add-on) did occur as well).

For those wishing to learn NVDA add-on development (after learning Python, of course): source code for my add-ons may look similar to NVDA’s own source code because I adhere to coding style guidelines from NV Access. I also include comments throughout the code so folks (including I) can understand what’s up. To keep things on topic, you can take a look at Control Usage Assistant add-on source code at:

https://github.com/josephsl/controlusageassistant

P.S. If you want to know how complex an add-on source code can become, take a look at source code for add-ons such as NVDA Remote, Developer Toolkit, StationPlaylist, and Add-on Updater (Add-on Updater is mine).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 11:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Free JAWS licence that was anounced today

 

Hi Quentin,

RE: Control usage assistant addon

Is the type of addon they are looking for, like the control usage assistant? In short what it does, is if you press the NVDA key and the letter H it will tell you what the focused element does. For example, if focused on a button, and you press Insert + H then you might hear "press the Enter key or spacebar". If focused on an element it will tell you what to do, and then you can press the Esc key. It works with NVDA 2019.3.1 but I have not tried it on 2020.1 beta yet as I have only just downloaded it.

When you are focused on an element, as you press Insert + H it will say "control usage assistant" every time and then give the relevant details for that focused object.

I think that if he suppresses NVDA from saying "control usage assistant" every time it wouldn't get annoying after a few times.

A general comment that I have is that the name is not necessarily readily identifiable as to what it does. It hints at usage and hints at assistant but I was not sure why the word control was used initially? When looking on the next page to see what it does, it explains it as an assistant for the focused control that you are on. Perhaps it could be called "focused control assistant". Also, should a brief one liner on the main addon page be added underneath each addon so that people have a better idea of what each addon is for before clicking on each one to find out what it does.

 

RE: Tip of the day addon

Another addon is tip of the day. It will give you little tips on how to use NVDA, but it has not been updated to work with NVDA 2019.3.1 and beyond. 

 

 

I used to install it on computers where the person was a new user when nvda was installed onto there computer.

I think Deric was the guy who made it. I can not remember what the last version of nvda it worked on maybe 2019.2.1??? or earlier?

That add on would be worth updating to work with a very new user to nvda.

 

Gene NZ

On 24/03/2020 1:22 pm, Quentin Christensen wrote:

I'm happy to explore the idea of hints or more help for new users if those with ideas on that want to contact me.

 

The open source being insecure argument is being disproved even more with every passing week.  Did you know 20% of code created for US government organisations now has to be open source?  Or that if you use a Windows computer, it includes open source code?  I've recently updated our Corporate and Government page to include more info on that: https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/#OpenSource

 

Re the idea that NVDA is inferior because of the price, perhaps expressing it differently would help?  EG it is not that NVDA costs less to make than other programs, or is made with less care and attention.  Rather, that in creating a product which actually meets the needs of its audience, we have looked at not only the technical requirements of the software itself, but also the fact that the majority of blind people around the world have less access to education, employment and income, therefore, what good is a solution which meets the technical need but is inaccessible due to the prohibitive financial burden unnecessarily placed on end users?  NV Access have pursued a funding model which means we get the majority of our income from corporations like Microsoft, Mozilla, Google, etc, rather than the end user.  Therefore, NVDA is the most ethical screen reader available.

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 9:17 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:57 PM, Devin Prater wrote:

but they understand the iPhone quickly, and JAWS too

I disagree with this statement, particularly with regard to JAWS.  I've been tutoring for years for JAWS, and I have yet to have a client understand it quickly, and that's even for folks who were very sophisticated Windows users prior to losing their site.

I had one client (and, yes, I know that one is not a valid sample) who could use the iPhone very proficiently, including VoiceOver, but who could never master the rotor (and not secondary to any motor issues).

After decades in IT one of the claims, about anything technology-related, that instantly makes me cringe is, "It's intuitive."   There is no such thing as a very highly featured system that is intuitive in any meaningful sense of that word.   Some are easier than others to get the hang of the basics, but all require intensive practice to master even the subset of non-basic commands a given user might use.   Microsoft Word is the perfect example of that.  It's dirt simple to create a dirt simple document, but when you start going beyond that, things get complicated and you can end up "in the weeds" with unbelievable speed if you try to guess what you need to do.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Tony Ballou
 

Hi,


As a long time adaptive trainer and technical specialist, I have seen this same thing, numerous times. I myself have been an NVDA user for about 8 years or so now.  And I have seen it grow, and improve by leaps and bounds.  Since I first tried it out when situations forced me to moved to a more affordable screen reading solution, I will be the first to admit that I didn't bring any of my clients across because of the familiarity aspects and issues with more of the shall we say mainstream products. However, if they were in a situation where they wanted to purchase a new system from me, I would be sure to install NVDA on it for them so that they would have it at their fingertips if they couldn't afford Jaws and bring them across that way.  Getting schools and organizations to support NVDA is by no means going to be an easy task for they all have been spoon fed on Jaws as the premiere screen reading software for the longest time.  The adage seems to be if what we've got works, why fix or in this case, try to change it.


Tony

On 3/23/2020 2:02 PM, Sky Mundell wrote:
Hello guys . I do agree with everybody about what they're saying. However, I
am going to point something out to you, and that is, as a 6 year adaptive
tech trainer who has trained blind students in screen readers, I have to say
that there are folks out there that won't give up there screen reader too
easily. As an example, I do have friends out there that know that NVDA
exists, and so on and so forth, but a lot of them think that if something is
cheaper, it is inferior. I'll give you an example. I do have a friend in
California who has heard of NVDA, and her blind friends know that NVDA
exists, and they have tried it but they end up going back to JAWS because
its what they know. Also Many of the institutions that I've come across have
never heard of NVDA, or if they have heard of it, they assume that it is
incomplete or inferior because they have seem more than one person use JAWS
and iPhones so they think, all blind folks use, are JAWS screen reader, and
iPhones. Which, as you and I know, is not true. As, while JAWS and iPhone's
are certainly used, not everybody uses, or cannot afford, either JAWS, or
iPhone. Another example is that I have a relative that works at a
university, and they use JAWS and I bet if they have heard of NVDA they
would be reluctant to try it because they would, once again, assume it is
incomplete, and inferior. Sadly, there is no support for NVDA in the school
districts that I am aware of where I am. I am certainly in favor of client
choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be
real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone
trying it out.


 

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 09:17 AM, Tony Ballou wrote:
The adage seems to be if what we've got works, why fix or in this case, try to change it.
But, given your background, you also know that money has been getting tighter and tighter and tighter.  There is a very strong case to be made for NVDA on that front, since no one can claim it's not a mature and full-service product (slight differences from JAWS don't make it "not full-service," just somewhat different).

There is also a clear case to be made that supplying software without training, particularly for something as complicated as a screen reader, is a recipe for disaster.  Clients will abandon that which they cannot use even vaguely effectively, and those of us "in this biz" have seen this more times than we care to count.

It's also critical to direct clients to resources such as this very group as part of their training.  There is no way that any trainer/tutor can ever possibly cover what any given individual will ultimately need to do with their screen reader.  Our job is to launch the client with a solid foundation upon which they can build independently, but independently does not mean "alone and without any outside guidance."  Knowing where to turn for assistance when you hit the inevitable, "How in the heck do I do this?!!," class of question is crucial.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

Kerryn Gunness
 

hello all
thought this group deals with NVDA only, you all are talking about jaws
subjectline
Re: [nvda] Free JAWS licence that was anounced today


when i ask questions about programs i use with NVDA, i am told the group is for NVDA related questions and the thread becomes locked
just asking
thanks for clarification

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Ballou" <cyberpro224@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Free JAWS licence that was anounced today


Hi,


As a long time adaptive trainer and technical specialist, I have seen
this same thing, numerous times. I myself have been an NVDA user for
about 8 years or so now. And I have seen it grow, and improve by leaps
and bounds. Since I first tried it out when situations forced me to
moved to a more affordable screen reading solution, I will be the first
to admit that I didn't bring any of my clients across because of the
familiarity aspects and issues with more of the shall we say mainstream
products. However, if they were in a situation where they wanted to
purchase a new system from me, I would be sure to install NVDA on it for
them so that they would have it at their fingertips if they couldn't
afford Jaws and bring them across that way. Getting schools and
organizations to support NVDA is by no means going to be an easy task
for they all have been spoon fed on Jaws as the premiere screen reading
software for the longest time. The adage seems to be if what we've got
works, why fix or in this case, try to change it.


Tony

On 3/23/2020 2:02 PM, Sky Mundell wrote:
Hello guys . I do agree with everybody about what they're saying. However, I
am going to point something out to you, and that is, as a 6 year adaptive
tech trainer who has trained blind students in screen readers, I have to say
that there are folks out there that won't give up there screen reader too
easily. As an example, I do have friends out there that know that NVDA
exists, and so on and so forth, but a lot of them think that if something is
cheaper, it is inferior. I'll give you an example. I do have a friend in
California who has heard of NVDA, and her blind friends know that NVDA
exists, and they have tried it but they end up going back to JAWS because
its what they know. Also Many of the institutions that I've come across have
never heard of NVDA, or if they have heard of it, they assume that it is
incomplete or inferior because they have seem more than one person use JAWS
and iPhones so they think, all blind folks use, are JAWS screen reader, and
iPhones. Which, as you and I know, is not true. As, while JAWS and iPhone's
are certainly used, not everybody uses, or cannot afford, either JAWS, or
iPhone. Another example is that I have a relative that works at a
university, and they use JAWS and I bet if they have heard of NVDA they
would be reluctant to try it because they would, once again, assume it is
incomplete, and inferior. Sadly, there is no support for NVDA in the school
districts that I am aware of where I am. I am certainly in favor of client
choice and I am in favor of cheaper stuff but at the moment its going to be
real tough to get organisations to realize that NVDA even exists let alone
trying it out.



 

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 03:34 PM, Kerryn Gunness wrote:
when i ask questions about programs i use with NVDA, i am told the group is for NVDA related questions and the thread becomes locked
just asking
There is a worldwide crisis occurring where many individuals are now housebound (including myself).  Many of the members here are transitioning to NVDA from another screen reader, one of which may be JAWS.  In a situation such as this, when a major screen reader vendor offers a free license to use their product it warrants mention throughout the various screen reader online communities.

And, you have apparently not read through the content of this topic at all, which you should do before commenting.   JAWS has been incidental, not central, to it.  You'll find NVDA being mentioned many, many more times than JAWS has been.  It was just the free offer that launched the topic, but it certainly has not been its focus.  And even if the free offer had been its focus, under the current circumstances, I'd allow it.  There are times rules should absolutely be bent.  This is one of those.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna

 

 

Jackie
 

While I would say that NVDA meets the needs of many "general" users,
unfortunately, there are still some situations where Jaws does what
NVDA can't. The program called "Band-in-a-Box" is such an example, as
the program doesn't appear to expose objects & the chords have to be
read using Jaws' capability of reading highlighted colors. Screen
modeling is becoming passe, though, as Microsoft is increasingly
discouraging mirror drivers & such for security reasons. The problem
is that the vast majority of developers don't develop w/accessibility
best practices in mind, & I'd hazard a guess that most wouldn't have
the vaguest idea of what they are or even that they exist. & to say
that MS itself has been spotty in their accessibility implementation
is the understatement of the century thus far & will likely continue
to be true for many years to come, unfortunately. That applies also to
other companies who ought to know better as well.

On 3/24/20, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 03:34 PM, Kerryn Gunness wrote:


when i ask questions about programs i use with NVDA, i am told the group
is for NVDA related questions and the thread becomes locked
just asking
There is a worldwide crisis occurring where many individuals are now
housebound (including myself).  Many of the members here are transitioning
to NVDA from another screen reader, one of which may be JAWS.  In a
situation such as this, when a major screen reader vendor offers a free
license to use their product it warrants mention throughout the various
screen reader online communities.

And, you have apparently not read through the content of this topic at all,
which you should do before commenting.   JAWS has been incidental, not
central, to it.  You'll find NVDA being mentioned many, many more times than
JAWS has been.  It was just the free offer that launched the topic, but it
certainly has not been its focus.  And even if the free offer had been its
focus, under the current circumstances, I'd allow it.  There are times rules
should absolutely be bent.  This is one of those.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

*Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.*

~ Madonna



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On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 04:01 PM, Jackie wrote:
While I would say that NVDA meets the needs of many "general" users,
unfortunately, there are still some situations where Jaws does what
NVDA can't.
And vice versa.  There are also times where Narrator can do something the other two don't handle gracefully.

But, under typical circumstances, other than something in the form of, "I can do [insert thing here] with JAWS/Narrator/Window-Eyes, but can't figure out how to do it with NVDA," being brought up any extended discussion of JAWS, Narrator, or Window-Eyes on this group is off-topic.

That would even be true now, today, were the conversation about how to use JAWS, Narrator, or Window-Eyes.  That's off-topic.

I just wanted to point out in response to the original question what my reasoning was for allowing the discussion that Freedom Scientific/Vispero was offering JAWS, Fusion, and ZoomText licenses at no cost to home users through June 30th.  It's an exception condition, not a change in group rules.  Group owners and moderators will, occasionally, allow topics for exception conditions that are generally recognized as such without further explanation.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it.

       ~ Madonna