locked From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands


 

Here is the topic:  
How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

This is the claim I find incredibly confusing, and believe to be false, "Yeah it puts the synth to sleep as well, so no speech from the game using Jaws, which is why that option isn't always useful in my case. Some of you mentioned there's no way to pass all keystrokes through to the application using any screen reader, except for the fact that NVDA does exactly this, with no problems."

The individual asking this keeps claiming that NVDA can and does have a way (and not sleeping NVDA, but where NVDA still narrates/announces) where all keystrokes are passed through to the underlying application without any need to use the pass-through command nor with any NVDA actions being taken.  Kinda like a speaking sleep.

I have never seen or experienced any such mode, and unless I've taken leave of my senses it simply does not exist.  But I had to ask if anyone knows of any such mode and, if so, how one gets it activated, as it's certainly not the default mode.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley


Quentin Christensen
 

I'm not aware of such a mode either Brian....

NVDA+shift+s (or for laptop: NVDA+shift+z) puts NVDA into sleep mode, which "disables all NVDA commands and speech/braille output for the current application".

There is the NVDA+F2 pass through key which "Tells NVDA to pass the next key press straight through to the active application - even if it is normally treated as an NVDA key command" - that will then speak anything the command happens to do - but you need to press it for each keystroke.

If someone has a quirky hack to accomplish it, like plugging a second keyboard in, then I'd be interested as well, but I'm not aware of it.

Note: Plugging a second keyboard in, to my knowledge will not work - it will simply pass any keystrokes you press on it to the computer as normal - in fact, I just tried and you can even press a keystroke across two keyboards - I just held down ALT on my laptop keyboard and pressed TAB on my external keyboard and it switches windows.  Neat, but I can't think of a time I would use it.


On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 9:16 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Here is the topic:  
How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

This is the claim I find incredibly confusing, and believe to be false, "Yeah it puts the synth to sleep as well, so no speech from the game using Jaws, which is why that option isn't always useful in my case. Some of you mentioned there's no way to pass all keystrokes through to the application using any screen reader, except for the fact that NVDA does exactly this, with no problems."

The individual asking this keeps claiming that NVDA can and does have a way (and not sleeping NVDA, but where NVDA still narrates/announces) where all keystrokes are passed through to the underlying application without any need to use the pass-through command nor with any NVDA actions being taken.  Kinda like a speaking sleep.

I have never seen or experienced any such mode, and unless I've taken leave of my senses it simply does not exist.  But I had to ask if anyone knows of any such mode and, if so, how one gets it activated, as it's certainly not the default mode.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Nimer Jaber
 

There is a setting that *may* accomplish this, but I don't have a way of testing right now. That is the setting for passing keystrokes to the application. I believe that this has more to do with web keystrokes, just as the JAWS feature does, but it may be possible that NVDA passes keystrokes to JAWS because JAWS is running and JAWS steals the keystrokes? Not sure... It's typically not a great idea to run both simultaneously anyway.


On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 9:14 PM Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
I'm not aware of such a mode either Brian....

NVDA+shift+s (or for laptop: NVDA+shift+z) puts NVDA into sleep mode, which "disables all NVDA commands and speech/braille output for the current application".

There is the NVDA+F2 pass through key which "Tells NVDA to pass the next key press straight through to the active application - even if it is normally treated as an NVDA key command" - that will then speak anything the command happens to do - but you need to press it for each keystroke.

If someone has a quirky hack to accomplish it, like plugging a second keyboard in, then I'd be interested as well, but I'm not aware of it.

Note: Plugging a second keyboard in, to my knowledge will not work - it will simply pass any keystrokes you press on it to the computer as normal - in fact, I just tried and you can even press a keystroke across two keyboards - I just held down ALT on my laptop keyboard and pressed TAB on my external keyboard and it switches windows.  Neat, but I can't think of a time I would use it.


On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 9:16 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Here is the topic:  
How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

This is the claim I find incredibly confusing, and believe to be false, "Yeah it puts the synth to sleep as well, so no speech from the game using Jaws, which is why that option isn't always useful in my case. Some of you mentioned there's no way to pass all keystrokes through to the application using any screen reader, except for the fact that NVDA does exactly this, with no problems."

The individual asking this keeps claiming that NVDA can and does have a way (and not sleeping NVDA, but where NVDA still narrates/announces) where all keystrokes are passed through to the underlying application without any need to use the pass-through command nor with any NVDA actions being taken.  Kinda like a speaking sleep.

I have never seen or experienced any such mode, and unless I've taken leave of my senses it simply does not exist.  But I had to ask if anyone knows of any such mode and, if so, how one gets it activated, as it's certainly not the default mode.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures in podcast audio form on YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

Hi,

I think the closest is sleep mode attribute in app modules. The sleep mode toggle command (NVDA+Shift+S/Z) turns off input and output processing for the focused app only. You can verify this as follows:

  1. Open any app where you wish to toggle sleep mode.
  2. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console.
  3. Type the code fragment below (below tihs list). 4 Close Python Console.
  4. Enter sleep mode fro mthe current application.
  5. Turn off sleep mode after NVDA finishes spekaing something.

Code fragment from Python Console (type Enter after each line):

import wx n = wx.adv.NotificationMessage("test", "testing") wx.CallLater(5000, n.Show)

The above code fragment (sorry for the formatting) will let NVDA show a toast notification message five seconds after you press Enter on the last line. After pressing Enter on the last line, press Escape to close Python Console and activate sleep mode from the focused app within say, three seconds. You will then notice that NVDA goes to "sleep" from the focused app but announces the test message as toast notification comes from a different program.

Cheers,

Joseph


 

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:30 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Not sure... It's typically not a great idea to run both simultaneously anyway.
-
Just to be clear, that's not what's being proposed.

And the claim appears to be that NVDA can be in "full normal output" mode while, at the same time, passing all sorts of things through (essentially, everything) to the underlying application.  Hence my description of it being a sort of speaking sleep.

I've never seen either NVDA or JAWS (or any screen reader on the Windows platform) behave in this way.  At this point, I've dismissed the entire premise since the questioner will not supply an exact example of what's in use for other people to test against.  You can't deal with claims like this as abstractions, and it is a "put up or shut up" kind of situation.  If you can't and won't tell others what, exactly, it is you're using and doing (and the underlying application in this case is said to be a game) then just go away.

I got pretty much precisely the answers I thought I would here, and they're entirely congruent with what I already know of the behavior of all screen readers I've ever touched.  Their place in the command processing hierarchy remains smack in the middle between the operating system and the application they're being used to access in all cases.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley


Brian's Mail list account
 

Its never a good idea to have both screenreaders running.

They do interfere, Even Narrator running can cause problems.
Another one recently found was that I was asked to put NVDA on a machine which originally only had Dolphin Guide Connect on it, so the user could learn windows but have the ability to still use Guide.
Fine, except that you actually have to stop NVDA completely before running guide as although it appears to silence nvda, it is active and stops some keys on Guide from working.


The only way out was to use a batch file to run guide and part of it shut down nvda, meaning it had to be manually started on exit from guide.
Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nimer Jaber" <nimerjaber1@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands


There is a setting that *may* accomplish this, but I don't have a way of
testing right now. That is the setting for passing keystrokes to the
application. I believe that this has more to do with web keystrokes, just
as the JAWS feature does, but it may be possible that NVDA passes
keystrokes to JAWS because JAWS is running and JAWS steals the keystrokes?
Not sure... It's typically not a great idea to run both simultaneously
anyway.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 9:14 PM Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
wrote:

I'm not aware of such a mode either Brian....

NVDA+shift+s (or for laptop: NVDA+shift+z) puts NVDA into sleep mode,
which "disables all NVDA commands and speech/braille output for the current
application".

There is the NVDA+F2 pass through key which "Tells NVDA to pass the next
key press straight through to the active application - even if it is
normally treated as an NVDA key command" - that will then speak anything
the command happens to do - but you need to press it for each keystroke.

If someone has a quirky hack to accomplish it, like plugging a second
keyboard in, then I'd be interested as well, but I'm not aware of it.

Note: Plugging a second keyboard in, to my knowledge will not work - it
will simply pass any keystrokes you press on it to the computer as normal -
in fact, I just tried and you can even press a keystroke across two
keyboards - I just held down ALT on my laptop keyboard and pressed TAB on
my external keyboard and it switches windows. Neat, but I can't think of a
time I would use it.


On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 9:16 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Here is the topic:
How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands
<https://groups.io/g/jfw-users/topic/93954239>
This is the claim I find incredibly confusing, and believe to be false,
"Yeah it puts the synth to sleep as well, so no speech from the game using
Jaws, which is why that option isn't always useful in my case. Some of you
mentioned there's no way to pass all keystrokes through to the application
using any screen reader, except for the fact that NVDA does exactly this,
with no problems."

The individual asking this keeps claiming that NVDA can and does have a
way (and not sleeping NVDA, but where NVDA still narrates/announces) where
all keystrokes are passed through to the underlying application without any
need to use the pass-through command nor with any NVDA actions being
taken. Kinda like a speaking sleep.

I have never seen or experienced any such mode, and unless I've taken
leave of my senses it simply does not exist. But I had to ask if anyone
knows of any such mode and, if so, how one gets it activated, as it's
certainly not the default mode.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

~ Austin O'Malley

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures
<https://www.youtube.com/blindtechadventures> in podcast audio form on
YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter <https://www.twitter.com/nimerjaber>
for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Brian's Mail list account
 

That only works if the same exe program is being run all the time, which is seldom the case in many programmes.

Brian

--
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Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands


Hi,

I think the closest is sleep mode attribute in app modules. The sleep mode toggle command (NVDA+Shift+S/Z) turns off input and output processing for the focused app only. You can verify this as follows:

1. Open any app where you wish to toggle sleep mode.
2. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console.
3. Type the code fragment below (below tihs list).
4 Close Python Console.
5. Enter sleep mode fro mthe current application.
6. Turn off sleep mode after NVDA finishes spekaing something.

Code fragment from Python Console (type Enter after each line):

import wx
n = wx.adv.NotificationMessage("test", "testing")
wx.CallLater(5000, n.Show)


The above code fragment (sorry for the formatting) will let NVDA show a toast notification message five seconds after you press Enter on the last line. After pressing Enter on the last line, press Escape to close Python Console and activate sleep mode from the focused app within say, three seconds. You will then notice that NVDA goes to "sleep" from the focused app but announces the test message as toast notification comes from a different program.

Cheers,

Joseph


 

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:39 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
I think the closest is sleep mode attribute in app modules.
-
Joseph,

Thank you for this, truly.

But the claims being made are about "out of the box" behavior of both JAWS and NVDA, and those claims about both are equally inaccurate, which is where the real problem lies.

I refuse to go down the rabbit-hole of "what-if-ism" when it comes to assisting with any given program because so few people ever change any of the default settings, and those that do will most often note what they have changed if they believe it is, or might be, germane to the issue(s) at hand.  At the same time, I also refuse to go down the rabbit hole of trying to answer what are very complex questions without a test situation to use that is clearly defined.  And if anyone seeking assistance can't at least tell you what program it is that they are having difficulty accessing, but instead say something like "when I'm playing a game," and refuse to clarify, then I'm out.  Anyone with any common sense and experience is out, because you can't fix an abstraction, only a situation (which can sometimes be generalized, and other times not).

The original poster has pretty much gone away after I pushed back, and not a single other person involved could make any sense of what he (I think) was saying.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

All I can say on this subject (I'm not really sure if its relevant) is that on occasion I have an accidental running of both NVDA and JAWS and it ain't pretty. I use a desktop primarily and with the insert key as the modifier for both programs, it is total chaos. I have to press the JAWS pass through key which doesn't conflict with NVDA and then use the insert + N keystroke to invoke the NVDA menu and exit the program.


On 9/28/2022 10:51 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:39 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
I think the closest is sleep mode attribute in app modules.
-
Joseph,

Thank you for this, truly.

But the claims being made are about "out of the box" behavior of both JAWS and NVDA, and those claims about both are equally inaccurate, which is where the real problem lies.

I refuse to go down the rabbit-hole of "what-if-ism" when it comes to assisting with any given program because so few people ever change any of the default settings, and those that do will most often note what they have changed if they believe it is, or might be, germane to the issue(s) at hand.  At the same time, I also refuse to go down the rabbit hole of trying to answer what are very complex questions without a test situation to use that is clearly defined.  And if anyone seeking assistance can't at least tell you what program it is that they are having difficulty accessing, but instead say something like "when I'm playing a game," and refuse to clarify, then I'm out.  Anyone with any common sense and experience is out, because you can't fix an abstraction, only a situation (which can sometimes be generalized, and other times not).

The original poster has pretty much gone away after I pushed back, and not a single other person involved could make any sense of what he (I think) was saying.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley


-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!


 

As an ex-Jaws user, I know full well that Jaws don't play well with games; I ended up resorting to quitting Jaws so I could play a game properly.
But with NVDA I don't have any issues with games; all keyboard keys were passed directly to the game as to be expected.


 

On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 10:23 AM, Supanut Leepaisomboon wrote:
But with NVDA I don't have any issues with games; all keyboard keys were passed directly to the game as to be expected.
-
And the only logical reason that would be so is that NVDA itself is not using those keyboard sequences as commands.

That's the point.  It's well known that certain screen readers don't "play well" with certain underlying programs, and for a variety of reasons.  But when it comes to keyboard commands, Windows gets first crack, if it isn't "the handler" then the screen reader gets second crack, and if it isn't "the handler" then the underlying application gets third crack.  That's essentially an immutable truth.

But neither JAWS nor NVDA comandeer the keyboard and "hog all keystrokes."  They process their commands, and the rest get passed along to the underlying application.

There can be other reasons that a given screen reader may not "play well" with something.  I've seen such occur myself, which is why I always tell my clients that they had better have a fallback screen reader with which they have basic (very basic) skills for those rare occasions where their chosen one just refuses to "play well" with something they need to access.  And for a JAWS user, that could be NVDA or Narrator, and for an NVDA user, that would most likely be Narrator or JAWS in 40-minute mode if they are not also a licensed JAWS user.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley


tim
 

You can play games with jfw I have done it all the time when running jaws.

There is a sleep mode in jaws that mutes jaws for that app and lets all keys go to game. Then when you want to inter act with other windows just do a alt + tab and those windows start speaking.


On 9/29/2022 10:23 AM, Supanut Leepaisomboon wrote:

As an ex-Jaws user, I know full well that Jaws don't play well with games; I ended up resorting to quitting Jaws so I could play a game properly.
But with NVDA I don't have any issues with games; all keyboard keys were passed directly to the game as to be expected.


 

On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 11:09 AM, tim wrote:
There is a sleep mode in jaws that mutes jaws for that app and lets all keys go to game.
-
Let me repeat several points here:

1. The above is correct.
2. It has already been discussed that using sleep mode is not what the original questioner was asking for.

So I'm asking everyone who may wish to participate in this topic further NOT to talk about sleep mode, because it appears that the original questioner was complaining that JAWS interferes with playing a game he likes in a way that NVDA does not, but that screen reader output was still desired.

And I'd actually propose that anyone who wants to pursue this in regard to JAWS, specifically, join the JFW group and hop in on the topic:  How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

My purpose in starting this topic here was to verify that my perception of how NVDA and JAWS both handle commands was, for all practical intents and purposes, the same.  That has been confirmed.  Why JAWS does not "play well" with certain game applications is a whole different ball of wax and not on-topic here. 
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley


tim
 

Well if you knew jfw you would know that is what it is called Sleep moded.

Start the program you want jaws not to act in.

Then do a insert+ 6. When the script manager comes up. Tab to the list and then arrow down to miscellaneous, do a right arrow and down to sleep moded and check the box.

Now just tab to ok and ok now your done.

The screen reader will not bother that program, but let you alt + tab and get speech.



On 9/29/2022 11:15 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 11:09 AM, tim wrote:
There is a sleep mode in jaws that mutes jaws for that app and lets all keys go to game.
-
Let me repeat several points here:

1. The above is correct.
2. It has already been discussed that using sleep mode is not what the original questioner was asking for.

So I'm asking everyone who may wish to participate in this topic further NOT to talk about sleep mode, because it appears that the original questioner was complaining that JAWS interferes with playing a game he likes in a way that NVDA does not, but that screen reader output was still desired.

And I'd actually propose that anyone who wants to pursue this in regard to JAWS, specifically, join the JFW group and hop in on the topic:  How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

My purpose in starting this topic here was to verify that my perception of how NVDA and JAWS both handle commands was, for all practical intents and purposes, the same.  That has been confirmed.  Why JAWS does not "play well" with certain game applications is a whole different ball of wax and not on-topic here. 
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley


 

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 02:42 PM, tim wrote:
Well if you knew jfw you would know that is what it is called Sleep moded.
-
And I've already said, multiple times, that sleep mode is NOT what is wanted.  It's just not.

The statement was made repeatedly that the screen reader should keep reading, but pass through every blessed keyboard shortcut sequence, and this is not possible.

You can keep preaching sleep mode all you like, and I'm intimately familiar with what it is, but that was not what the original questioner was seeking.  And what he's was seeking is just not possible, which has been confirmed as well.

This topic is now locked, as what I needed to know has already been covered, and I no longer want to hear about sleep mode, as it is NOT relevant to the original question.
 
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley