Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key


Rowen Cary
 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!


Sarah k Alawami
 

Is this issue on github, if it is I’ll give it a thumbs up.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rowen Cary
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 8:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!


Rowen Cary
 

Hi, I did not find a similar issue on github


Chris
 

And what about those of us who cannot use their right hand???

Or is your opinion tough shit to those of have only the use  of one hand

As long as you dont have to press  a key twice, sod everybody else

 

 

 

From: Rowen Cary
Sent: 12 November 2021 04:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!

 


Chris Mullins
 

Hi

I disagree with this.  Capslock also becomes a sticky key for use by those with dexterity issues when that Windows feature is engaged.  Personally, I ten to hold the key down before pressing the remainder of the NVDA keystroke and would not want to accidentally be switchching into uppercase if I didn’t complete a keystroke within a given time.  I suspect Capslock was chosen as aa NVDA modifier because, In general use, it is one of the more infrequently used keys.  IMO, double tapping a key is no more arduous than double clicking a mouse button and devoting development effort into something like this would be a waste of resources.       

 

Cheers

Chris

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Rowen Cary
Sent: 12 November 2021 04:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!

 


Gene
 

What are you saying?  Are you saying that pressing the caps lock key would turn it on or off as well as be an NVDA key?  That makes no sense.  Most people don’t use the caps lock key much and you would have to press it twice almost every time you used it as an NVDA key, once would turn it on, which you would seldom want, and once would turn it off.  I’m extremely doubtful that other screen-readers do this.  And it isn’t at all difficult to press it quickly twice to turn it on or off on the rare occasions most people want to do so. 
 
It also violates consistency.  The insert key when pressed by itself if NVDA were not running has a function as well.  it changes from overtype to add letters withouth replacing others.  Changing the behavior of the caps lock key would violate the consistency of having to press either insert twice to use its usual function, which is currently the case.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key
 

Is this issue on github, if it is I’ll give it a thumbs up.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rowen Cary
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 8:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!


Steve Nutt
 

Hi Chris,

 

I think what Rowan is saying is that if you just press the caps lock key without any other key, NVDA should pass it through. I agree with this.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris via groups.io
Sent: 12 November 2021 09:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

And what about those of us who cannot use their right hand???

Or is your opinion tough shit to those of have only the use  of one hand

As long as you dont have to press  a key twice, sod everybody else

 

 

 

From: Rowen Cary
Sent: 12 November 2021 04:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!

 


Gene
 

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?  Would it be required that it be pressed simultaneouswly with another keey in order to function as an NVDA key?  I suspect a lot of people do not do so now some or much of the time.  And what about people with coordination problems who might find it difficult to do this?
 
Also, having a two key simultaneous press requirement violates the way modifier keys work.  The NVDA key is a modifier.  Control, shift, and alt do not require another key to be pressed simultaneously. You can press and hold the modifier and press another key wile doing so.  You can press them simultaneously but it is not required.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key
 

Hi Chris,

 

I think what Rowan is saying is that if you just press the caps lock key without any other key, NVDA should pass it through. I agree with this.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris via groups.io
Sent: 12 November 2021 09:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

And what about those of us who cannot use their right hand???

Or is your opinion tough shit to those of have only the use  of one hand

As long as you dont have to press  a key twice, sod everybody else

 

 

 

From: Rowen Cary
Sent: 12 November 2021 04:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!

 


Chris
 

Or if its not enabled as a NVDA modifier key in NVDA keyboard settings

Then Thats fair enough If you want normal caps lock operation

 

But the caps lock key must remain an option to be used as a NVDA modifier key for those of us who require it

 

 

 

 

 

From: Steve Nutt
Sent: 12 November 2021 12:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi Chris,

 

I think what Rowan is saying is that if you just press the caps lock key without any other key, NVDA should pass it through. I agree with this.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris via groups.io
Sent: 12 November 2021 09:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

And what about those of us who cannot use their right hand???

Or is your opinion tough shit to those of have only the use  of one hand

As long as you dont have to press  a key twice, sod everybody else

 

 

 

From: Rowen Cary
Sent: 12 November 2021 04:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!

 

 


Eduardo Fermiano Luccas
 

I just don't think it should be done, and it should stay as is.

Em sex., 12 de nov. de 2021 às 10:19, Chris via groups.io <chrismedley=btinternet.com@groups.io> escreveu:

Or if its not enabled as a NVDA modifier key in NVDA keyboard settings

Then Thats fair enough If you want normal caps lock operation

 

But the caps lock key must remain an option to be used as a NVDA modifier key for those of us who require it

 

 

 

 

 

From: Steve Nutt
Sent: 12 November 2021 12:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi Chris,

 

I think what Rowan is saying is that if you just press the caps lock key without any other key, NVDA should pass it through. I agree with this.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris via groups.io
Sent: 12 November 2021 09:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

And what about those of us who cannot use their right hand???

Or is your opinion tough shit to those of have only the use  of one hand

As long as you dont have to press  a key twice, sod everybody else

 

 

 

From: Rowen Cary
Sent: 12 November 2021 04:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!

 

 


tim
 

I think it works just fine. Why introduce problems for bugs where you don't have any. Also why change it now? Its ben that way sense day one.

Instead of changing it how about learn how to use it.

On 11/11/2021 11:45 PM, Rowen Cary wrote:

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!


 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:
It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?
-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Eduardo Fermiano Luccas
 

i agree with you brian

Em sex., 12 de nov. de 2021 às 12:59, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> escreveu:

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:
It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?
-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

It can be. Not for me all the time but when my lefthand decides to brake, and it has happened, I hardly have the energy or the strength to do that double press if I need to. What I would do is post your suggestion on the github, come up with a very good use case, then see comments there as well.

 

Good luck.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eduardo Fermiano Luccas
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 10:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

i agree with you brian

 

Em sex., 12 de nov. de 2021 às 12:59, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> escreveu:

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Rowen Cary
 

Hello, I apologize for my initial immature thoughts. I didn't know that NVDA keys are sticky keys. In fact, Microsoft did not set Caps Lock as a sticky key by default. This is the behavior of NVDA. I admit that it makes sense to include NVDA in the range of sticky keys. Nevertheless, it is not an unresolvable conflict with the idea I originally proposed. We can have an option to ensure that the sticky key mode takes precedence, and it is allowed to press the caps lock once to switch the uppercase state without using the sticky key. Thanks, I hope I made it clear.


Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep, just like another oS I use. Capslock once will enable it and capslock off will disable it. I have caps lock set as my keys for that OS’s screen reader as well and there is no conflict.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rowen Cary
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 4:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hello, I apologize for my initial immature thoughts. I didn't know that NVDA keys are sticky keys. In fact, Microsoft did not set Caps Lock as a sticky key by default. This is the behavior of NVDA. I admit that it makes sense to include NVDA in the range of sticky keys. Nevertheless, it is not an unresolvable conflict with the idea I originally proposed. We can have an option to ensure that the sticky key mode takes precedence, and it is allowed to press the caps lock once to switch the uppercase state without using the sticky key. Thanks, I hope I made it clear.


Steve Nutt
 

Yes, that is not difficult at all.  Narrator does it already.

 

If you press it on its own, it becomes caps lock. If you press it with another key, any other key, it becomes a modifier. Simples really.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 12 November 2021 13:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?  Would it be required that it be pressed simultaneouswly with another keey in order to function as an NVDA key?  I suspect a lot of people do not do so now some or much of the time.  And what about people with coordination problems who might find it difficult to do this?

 

Also, having a two key simultaneous press requirement violates the way modifier keys work.  The NVDA key is a modifier.  Control, shift, and alt do not require another key to be pressed simultaneously. You can press and hold the modifier and press another key wile doing so.  You can press them simultaneously but it is not required.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 6:44 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi Chris,

 

I think what Rowan is saying is that if you just press the caps lock key without any other key, NVDA should pass it through. I agree with this.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris via groups.io
Sent: 12 November 2021 09:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

And what about those of us who cannot use their right hand???

Or is your opinion tough shit to those of have only the use  of one hand

As long as you dont have to press  a key twice, sod everybody else

 

 

 

From: Rowen Cary
Sent: 12 November 2021 04:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Hi All,

I think we need to improve the caps lock key, Since the function of the NVDA key is to cooperate with other keys to trigger a certain function, pressing the caps lock key once has no meaning for NVDA. Can we return it to the operating system for processing? This way we don’t need to quickly press Caps Lock twice every time we switch between upper and lower case. Some screen reader is already doing this, and the user experience is very good. I think NVDA can also do this, or even better.

Thanks!

 


Steve Nutt
 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Gene
 

You are one person.  If you took three showers a day, that doesn’t mean it is common. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key
 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Steve Nutt
 

But what makes anyone say it isn’t? Everyone’s experience is different.

 

I know loads of people who use the caps lock, both blind and not.

 

All the best


steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 15 November 2021 15:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

You are one person.  If you took three showers a day, that doesn’t mean it is common. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
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Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

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