Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard


Khalid Anwar
 

Good morning,
 
I’ve been making a lot of post recently and I just wanted to thank everyone for the help and advice I’ve been given so far, a lot of things seem to have all come up at once.
this question has been prompted by my company using an app called file stream to upload files to the shared drive.
As far as I can tell, the only way to use it is to drag and drop the file into the app, and the file itself is an excel spreadsheet.
Does anyone know if it’s possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA, or if there are any other ways using the keyboard to move large files from one place to another.


 

Khalid,

Yes, it's possible to use emulated drag and drop with NVDA (and JAWS).  See the NVDA Keyboard Quick Commands, Navigating with the Mouse section, for a discussion of using left mouse lock followed by routing commands for drag and drop.

There are very few apps that do not allow you to upload a file rather than drag and drop.  When the dialog is up, I would take some extra time to explore it to see if there is not an option for uploading the file which would use a typical Windows Open dialog to navigate to the file you want to upload.

Unfortunately, without a specific URL for the app, the terms file, stream, and even filestream as one word return too many results to sift through.  I can't locate documentation for this app.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Jujube
 

Hi, I think i saw this question posted elsewhere. I recall seeing this addon that may help ages ago. https://github.com/javidominguez/DragAndDrop/releases/

Otherwise, drag and drop isn't really something done by those who are blind and is thus replaced with other keyboard commands, and it depends on what app you use.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 5:41 AM Khalid Anwar <anwarkhalid850@...> wrote:
Good morning,
 
I’ve been making a lot of post recently and I just wanted to thank everyone for the help and advice I’ve been given so far, a lot of things seem to have all come up at once.
this question has been prompted by my company using an app called file stream to upload files to the shared drive.
As far as I can tell, the only way to use it is to drag and drop the file into the app, and the file itself is an excel spreadsheet.
Does anyone know if it’s possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA, or if there are any other ways using the keyboard to move large files from one place to another.


Tim M
 

Both NVDA and JFW have this ability.

However, it depends on the windows your moving to, because it don't work everywhere. That is why its hardly used.

Its mostly a pipe dream, but when it does work great. They had that for over twenty years in JFW and still only half works never was it dependable.



On 9/13/2021 8:41 AM, Khalid Anwar wrote:
Good morning,
 
I’ve been making a lot of post recently and I just wanted to thank everyone for the help and advice I’ve been given so far, a lot of things seem to have all come up at once.
this question has been prompted by my company using an app called file stream to upload files to the shared drive.
As far as I can tell, the only way to use it is to drag and drop the file into the app, and the file itself is an excel spreadsheet.
Does anyone know if it’s possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA, or if there are any other ways using the keyboard to move large files from one place to another.


 

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:23 PM, Tim M wrote:
still only half works never was it dependable.
-
That's my personal experience with emulated drag and drop.  It's proven completely unreliable for me.  But, that being said, what you said about when it works, it works great is also my experience.  It's just a crap shoot as to what situations it will and what situations it won't.

It's also quite possible for someone who can't see to use actual drag and drop when the direction of movement is constrained (e.g., moving something left or right in Quick Launch icons) with a bit of practice.  But it is impractical when you have no idea of where, exactly, "the drop zone" might have appeared on the screen.  Grabbing for the drag with a mouse or mouse pad is dirt simple once you have focus on the thing you want to drag, but locating the drop zone is generally very difficult to impossible.  Even then, there are certain exceptions, but those are a case-by-case sort of thing.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Khalid Anwar
 

Hi Brian,
There is a little bit of technical information about the software on this page:


Tim M
 

That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix. i would give better odds it being more workable with NVDA.



On 9/13/2021 12:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:23 PM, Tim M wrote:
still only half works never was it dependable.
-
That's my personal experience with emulated drag and drop.  It's proven completely unreliable for me.  But, that being said, what you said about when it works, it works great is also my experience.  It's just a crap shoot as to what situations it will and what situations it won't.

It's also quite possible for someone who can't see to use actual drag and drop when the direction of movement is constrained (e.g., moving something left or right in Quick Launch icons) with a bit of practice.  But it is impractical when you have no idea of where, exactly, "the drop zone" might have appeared on the screen.  Grabbing for the drag with a mouse or mouse pad is dirt simple once you have focus on the thing you want to drag, but locating the drop zone is generally very difficult to impossible.  Even then, there are certain exceptions, but those are a case-by-case sort of thing.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 03:03 PM, Tim M wrote:
That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix.
-
The thing is, I can't necessarily even say it's a bug.   Drag and drop "via the sighted method" is a thing unto itself, where the thing that has focus and is being dragged moves in real time and keeps focus throughout the movement until one releases the left mouse button over the drop zone.  If you release that button elsewhere (anywhere that the thing cannot be dropped) it simply remains where it had been.

With a screen reader, you have to gain focus, select, and "left mouse lock" on the object - and these three things are easy - but then navigate to the drop zone without ever giving full focus to anything else, and that is very tricky indeed to do, as I've found out in many other contexts.  I have not been willing to play much with emulated drag and drop because I try, whenever possible, to avoid the use of drag and drop, particularly when it comes to a screen reader.

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat, which is great as far as accessibility goes.  I'd far rather cut and paste, or choose to upload using an upload dialog, or similar than drag and drop.  I even do this more frequently than actual drag and drop because I'm often selecting multiple, non-contiguous files and it's very, very easy after having done so to lose that selection if your mouse pointer is even the tiniest bit outside "the grab zone" for the collection of files.  I'd rather hit CTRL + X, get to where I need them to go, and hit CTRL + P.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


David Goldfield
 

Brian wrote:

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat,

 

I agree. The only situation where I actually had to use drag and drop was with Thunderbird when I wanted to change the order of columns in a mailbox folder. At that time Thunderbird had no method for doing this using the keyboard. I haven’t used Thunderbird in quite some time on a regular basis and so this may have been addressed. Anyway, I used NVDA’s drag and drop commands to do it. It took a great deal of concentration and I had to be very methodical in ensuring that I was carefully performing the correct sequence of commands to get the job done but get it done I did. This was before the very wonderful Mozilla Enhancements NVDA addon which eliminated the need to use drag and drop emulation.

 

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 3:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 03:03 PM, Tim M wrote:

That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix.

-
The thing is, I can't necessarily even say it's a bug.   Drag and drop "via the sighted method" is a thing unto itself, where the thing that has focus and is being dragged moves in real time and keeps focus throughout the movement until one releases the left mouse button over the drop zone.  If you release that button elsewhere (anywhere that the thing cannot be dropped) it simply remains where it had been.

With a screen reader, you have to gain focus, select, and "left mouse lock" on the object - and these three things are easy - but then navigate to the drop zone without ever giving full focus to anything else, and that is very tricky indeed to do, as I've found out in many other contexts.  I have not been willing to play much with emulated drag and drop because I try, whenever possible, to avoid the use of drag and drop, particularly when it comes to a screen reader.

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat, which is great as far as accessibility goes.  I'd far rather cut and paste, or choose to upload using an upload dialog, or similar than drag and drop.  I even do this more frequently than actual drag and drop because I'm often selecting multiple, non-contiguous files and it's very, very easy after having done so to lose that selection if your mouse pointer is even the tiniest bit outside "the grab zone" for the collection of files.  I'd rather hit CTRL + X, get to where I need them to go, and hit CTRL + P.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Gene
 

Thunderbird hasn’t addressed it.  You have to use an add-on, which, as I recall is an NVDA add-on. 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard
 

Brian wrote:

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat,

 

I agree. The only situation where I actually had to use drag and drop was with Thunderbird when I wanted to change the order of columns in a mailbox folder. At that time Thunderbird had no method for doing this using the keyboard. I haven’t used Thunderbird in quite some time on a regular basis and so this may have been addressed. Anyway, I used NVDA’s drag and drop commands to do it. It took a great deal of concentration and I had to be very methodical in ensuring that I was carefully performing the correct sequence of commands to get the job done but get it done I did. This was before the very wonderful Mozilla Enhancements NVDA addon which eliminated the need to use drag and drop emulation.

 

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 3:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 03:03 PM, Tim M wrote:

That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix.

-
The thing is, I can't necessarily even say it's a bug.   Drag and drop "via the sighted method" is a thing unto itself, where the thing that has focus and is being dragged moves in real time and keeps focus throughout the movement until one releases the left mouse button over the drop zone.  If you release that button elsewhere (anywhere that the thing cannot be dropped) it simply remains where it had been.

With a screen reader, you have to gain focus, select, and "left mouse lock" on the object - and these three things are easy - but then navigate to the drop zone without ever giving full focus to anything else, and that is very tricky indeed to do, as I've found out in many other contexts.  I have not been willing to play much with emulated drag and drop because I try, whenever possible, to avoid the use of drag and drop, particularly when it comes to a screen reader.

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat, which is great as far as accessibility goes.  I'd far rather cut and paste, or choose to upload using an upload dialog, or similar than drag and drop.  I even do this more frequently than actual drag and drop because I'm often selecting multiple, non-contiguous files and it's very, very easy after having done so to lose that selection if your mouse pointer is even the tiniest bit outside "the grab zone" for the collection of files.  I'd rather hit CTRL + X, get to where I need them to go, and hit CTRL + P.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Gene
 

I checked to be sure and the Mozilla Enhancements add-on is an NVDA add-on. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard
 

Brian wrote:

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat,

 

I agree. The only situation where I actually had to use drag and drop was with Thunderbird when I wanted to change the order of columns in a mailbox folder. At that time Thunderbird had no method for doing this using the keyboard. I haven’t used Thunderbird in quite some time on a regular basis and so this may have been addressed. Anyway, I used NVDA’s drag and drop commands to do it. It took a great deal of concentration and I had to be very methodical in ensuring that I was carefully performing the correct sequence of commands to get the job done but get it done I did. This was before the very wonderful Mozilla Enhancements NVDA addon which eliminated the need to use drag and drop emulation.

 

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 3:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 03:03 PM, Tim M wrote:

That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix.

-
The thing is, I can't necessarily even say it's a bug.   Drag and drop "via the sighted method" is a thing unto itself, where the thing that has focus and is being dragged moves in real time and keeps focus throughout the movement until one releases the left mouse button over the drop zone.  If you release that button elsewhere (anywhere that the thing cannot be dropped) it simply remains where it had been.

With a screen reader, you have to gain focus, select, and "left mouse lock" on the object - and these three things are easy - but then navigate to the drop zone without ever giving full focus to anything else, and that is very tricky indeed to do, as I've found out in many other contexts.  I have not been willing to play much with emulated drag and drop because I try, whenever possible, to avoid the use of drag and drop, particularly when it comes to a screen reader.

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat, which is great as far as accessibility goes.  I'd far rather cut and paste, or choose to upload using an upload dialog, or similar than drag and drop.  I even do this more frequently than actual drag and drop because I'm often selecting multiple, non-contiguous files and it's very, very easy after having done so to lose that selection if your mouse pointer is even the tiniest bit outside "the grab zone" for the collection of files.  I'd rather hit CTRL + X, get to where I need them to go, and hit CTRL + P.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


David Goldfield
 

Gene wrote:

> I checked to be sure and the Mozilla Enhancements add-on is an NVDA add-on. 

 

Yes, it is, which is what I wrote in my original reply.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

I checked to be sure and the Mozilla Enhancements add-on is an NVDA add-on. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 5:20 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

Brian wrote:

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat,

 

I agree. The only situation where I actually had to use drag and drop was with Thunderbird when I wanted to change the order of columns in a mailbox folder. At that time Thunderbird had no method for doing this using the keyboard. I haven’t used Thunderbird in quite some time on a regular basis and so this may have been addressed. Anyway, I used NVDA’s drag and drop commands to do it. It took a great deal of concentration and I had to be very methodical in ensuring that I was carefully performing the correct sequence of commands to get the job done but get it done I did. This was before the very wonderful Mozilla Enhancements NVDA addon which eliminated the need to use drag and drop emulation.

 

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 3:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 03:03 PM, Tim M wrote:

That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix.

-
The thing is, I can't necessarily even say it's a bug.   Drag and drop "via the sighted method" is a thing unto itself, where the thing that has focus and is being dragged moves in real time and keeps focus throughout the movement until one releases the left mouse button over the drop zone.  If you release that button elsewhere (anywhere that the thing cannot be dropped) it simply remains where it had been.

With a screen reader, you have to gain focus, select, and "left mouse lock" on the object - and these three things are easy - but then navigate to the drop zone without ever giving full focus to anything else, and that is very tricky indeed to do, as I've found out in many other contexts.  I have not been willing to play much with emulated drag and drop because I try, whenever possible, to avoid the use of drag and drop, particularly when it comes to a screen reader.

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat, which is great as far as accessibility goes.  I'd far rather cut and paste, or choose to upload using an upload dialog, or similar than drag and drop.  I even do this more frequently than actual drag and drop because I'm often selecting multiple, non-contiguous files and it's very, very easy after having done so to lose that selection if your mouse pointer is even the tiniest bit outside "the grab zone" for the collection of files.  I'd rather hit CTRL + X, get to where I need them to go, and hit CTRL + P.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Gene
 

I saw the Mozilla Enhancements part of what you wrote but I didn’t notice NVDA. 
 
One interesting thing about drag and drop in some contexts is that you have to have two windows opened.  While I have found it to be very unreliable, I suspect some people find it not possible to work with no matter how hard they try because they don’t know that.  the context I know about is when you are using it instead of copy and paste files.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard
 

Gene wrote:

> I checked to be sure and the Mozilla Enhancements add-on is an NVDA add-on.

 

Yes, it is, which is what I wrote in my original reply.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

I checked to be sure and the Mozilla Enhancements add-on is an NVDA add-on. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 5:20 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

Brian wrote:

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat,

 

I agree. The only situation where I actually had to use drag and drop was with Thunderbird when I wanted to change the order of columns in a mailbox folder. At that time Thunderbird had no method for doing this using the keyboard. I haven’t used Thunderbird in quite some time on a regular basis and so this may have been addressed. Anyway, I used NVDA’s drag and drop commands to do it. It took a great deal of concentration and I had to be very methodical in ensuring that I was carefully performing the correct sequence of commands to get the job done but get it done I did. This was before the very wonderful Mozilla Enhancements NVDA addon which eliminated the need to use drag and drop emulation.

 

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 3:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is it possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA and the keyboard

 

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 03:03 PM, Tim M wrote:

That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix.

-
The thing is, I can't necessarily even say it's a bug.   Drag and drop "via the sighted method" is a thing unto itself, where the thing that has focus and is being dragged moves in real time and keeps focus throughout the movement until one releases the left mouse button over the drop zone.  If you release that button elsewhere (anywhere that the thing cannot be dropped) it simply remains where it had been.

With a screen reader, you have to gain focus, select, and "left mouse lock" on the object - and these three things are easy - but then navigate to the drop zone without ever giving full focus to anything else, and that is very tricky indeed to do, as I've found out in many other contexts.  I have not been willing to play much with emulated drag and drop because I try, whenever possible, to avoid the use of drag and drop, particularly when it comes to a screen reader.

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat, which is great as far as accessibility goes.  I'd far rather cut and paste, or choose to upload using an upload dialog, or similar than drag and drop.  I even do this more frequently than actual drag and drop because I'm often selecting multiple, non-contiguous files and it's very, very easy after having done so to lose that selection if your mouse pointer is even the tiniest bit outside "the grab zone" for the collection of files.  I'd rather hit CTRL + X, get to where I need them to go, and hit CTRL + P.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 06:45 PM, Gene wrote:
the context I know about is when you are using it instead of copy and paste files.
-
Which would be, by far and away, the most common context.

But, as was noted at the beginning, it's also very common for uploading files, too.  While this would certainly be, broadly, a sort of copy and paste action most wouldn't think of it that way.  I certainly don't.

The only context I know of where two different windows or dialog boxes are not involved is in things like quizzes where drag and drop is used to "draw a line" between a pair of items where there is a collection in two columns where you have to match one in the first to one in the second.  Drag and drop became the "electronic pencil" where the thing you picked up in column one, then dragged atop an item in column two and dropped it, caused the line to be drawn.  That, of course, can be easily done by other means, like filling in a letter for the item in column one in an edit box in front of each item in column two to indicate pairings.   The drag and drop variant came about as a direct visual replacement for the old (and sighted) line drawing to match pairs method.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

How do you do emulated drag-and-drop? I didn't know that this kind of capability even exists in NVDA...


Tim M
 

I thought you with sight would use it a lot. After all to the sighted users its a daily action and always will be for windows. That was there main selling point when they first came out with windows. in fact there is not one OS that don't use that methiod for moving around in the OS.



On 9/13/2021 3:58 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 03:03 PM, Tim M wrote:
That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix.
-
The thing is, I can't necessarily even say it's a bug.   Drag and drop "via the sighted method" is a thing unto itself, where the thing that has focus and is being dragged moves in real time and keeps focus throughout the movement until one releases the left mouse button over the drop zone.  If you release that button elsewhere (anywhere that the thing cannot be dropped) it simply remains where it had been.

With a screen reader, you have to gain focus, select, and "left mouse lock" on the object - and these three things are easy - but then navigate to the drop zone without ever giving full focus to anything else, and that is very tricky indeed to do, as I've found out in many other contexts.  I have not been willing to play much with emulated drag and drop because I try, whenever possible, to avoid the use of drag and drop, particularly when it comes to a screen reader.

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat, which is great as far as accessibility goes.  I'd far rather cut and paste, or choose to upload using an upload dialog, or similar than drag and drop.  I even do this more frequently than actual drag and drop because I'm often selecting multiple, non-contiguous files and it's very, very easy after having done so to lose that selection if your mouse pointer is even the tiniest bit outside "the grab zone" for the collection of files.  I'd rather hit CTRL + X, get to where I need them to go, and hit CTRL + P.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 02:03 PM, Tim M wrote:
After all to the sighted users its a daily action and always will be for windows.
-
That really depends on exactly when you came into the world of Microsoft and what you're generally doing.  I will drag and drop for a file, or two, but almost never if I need to select many files.

I started out in DOS and when, regardless of the OS, the command line was all.  Even once Windows came on the scene, I never dropped using the "Holy Trinity" of commands: Cut, Copy, Paste (CTRL + X, CTRL + C, and CTRL + V) in virtually any context where they can be used.  And for moving files around I select 'em, cut 'em, and paste 'em using the keyboard far more frequently than I ever drag and drop.

There are plenty of sighted Windows users who don't even know those commands exist (or at least act like they don't).  And the closer you get to the "touch activated everything" generation the less likely they are to know anything about keyboard shortcuts.

But I'm only reporting on my own usage patterns, and those "of a certain age" who came of age in the PC world at approximately the same time I did.  And even not all of them stuck with using a subset of keyboard commands, but some did.
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Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 07:03 AM, Supanut Leepaisomboon wrote:
How do you do emulated drag-and-drop?
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As I said earlier:  See the NVDA Keyboard Quick Commands, Navigating with the Mouse section, for a discussion of using left mouse lock followed by routing commands for drag and drop.

That's pretty much it.  You get a left mouse key lock on the item you wish to drag, navigate to where you want to drop it, route the mouse to the navigator object location, then toggle the left lock off to drop.

And while the described steps are easy, getting the desired result is not, because if you give focus to something else while navigating, the thing you "picked up" with the left mouse lock action is released and will remain precisely where it was.

This is something that takes quite a bit of practice to get the hang of and is still nowhere near to 100% reliable.  That's why I don't use it unless no other option exists.  And I tell my clients that if they can't get emulated drag and drop to work after a couple of attempts for a specific thing, get sighted help, at least if the idea is to get this done and move along to the next thing with maximum possible speed.

Like I said earlier, most of what is done by drag and drop can be done by copy and paste.  Or cut and paste if you want to move the objects, not copy them.
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Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Dave Grossoehme
 

Is it possible that the move command to move a file from one folder to another folder could be used for this party?

Dave


On 9/13/2021 12:58 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 03:03 PM, Tim M wrote:
That is just one of the many working bugs both screen readers have, and either haven't gotten to or just won't fix.
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The thing is, I can't necessarily even say it's a bug.   Drag and drop "via the sighted method" is a thing unto itself, where the thing that has focus and is being dragged moves in real time and keeps focus throughout the movement until one releases the left mouse button over the drop zone.  If you release that button elsewhere (anywhere that the thing cannot be dropped) it simply remains where it had been.

With a screen reader, you have to gain focus, select, and "left mouse lock" on the object - and these three things are easy - but then navigate to the drop zone without ever giving full focus to anything else, and that is very tricky indeed to do, as I've found out in many other contexts.  I have not been willing to play much with emulated drag and drop because I try, whenever possible, to avoid the use of drag and drop, particularly when it comes to a screen reader.

The actual need for drag and drop (as opposed to it being an option) seems to be fading out somewhat, which is great as far as accessibility goes.  I'd far rather cut and paste, or choose to upload using an upload dialog, or similar than drag and drop.  I even do this more frequently than actual drag and drop because I'm often selecting multiple, non-contiguous files and it's very, very easy after having done so to lose that selection if your mouse pointer is even the tiniest bit outside "the grab zone" for the collection of files.  I'd rather hit CTRL + X, get to where I need them to go, and hit CTRL + P.
 
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Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Dave Grossoehme
 

Are you moving the files from one folder to another?

Dave


On 9/13/2021 5:41 AM, Khalid Anwar wrote:
Good morning,
 
I’ve been making a lot of post recently and I just wanted to thank everyone for the help and advice I’ve been given so far, a lot of things seem to have all come up at once.
this question has been prompted by my company using an app called file stream to upload files to the shared drive.
As far as I can tell, the only way to use it is to drag and drop the file into the app, and the file itself is an excel spreadsheet.
Does anyone know if it’s possible to drag-and-drop with NVDA, or if there are any other ways using the keyboard to move large files from one place to another.