Learning to be efficient with screen review
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I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem.
Try this experiment:
1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command
2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter.
An Error message will appear.
3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review).
4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message.
This works fine.
Now press Windows I to go to settings.
1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security.
2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works..
3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen.
Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode
7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9.
You will only hear the word "Bottom".
They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review.
You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode.
Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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Quentin Christensen
I would generally use object review to move around something like settings. I actually wrote a piece on doing this in settings last year - https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-20th-november-2020/#ObjectNavigation
On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:19 PM Deborah Armstrong <debee@...> wrote:
--
Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Gene
You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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Sarah,
You're a living example of my oft-repeated: "Tool to task." While certain tools are bound to be used far more frequently than others, knowing how to use those others when it's "the only easy way" to access something often means the difference between accessible and inaccessible. Knowing how and when each tool is preferable is an excellent skill to acquire. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself. ~ Brian Vogel
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Gene
If there is only one object, you don't necessarily have to go into review mode. You can simply use the review commands, numpad 8 for read current line, numpad 7 for previous line, numpad 9 for next line, etc. When doing so in object navigation, you are reviewing the current objject.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Going into screen review doesn't work on web pages because of how browsers send data to the screen. Are you talking about using commands such as numpad 8 while in object navigation or are you talking about actually switching to screen review mode? Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 10:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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I keep stressing that, but I feel like I’m beating a dead horse, or at least a horse that refuses to move. I use screen review all the time and default to that, but that’s because I Have to. I know how to use the other tools, although not perfectly, at least well enough to get around, sometimes much much faster than my sighted counterparts.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 8:54 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review
Sarah, Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself. ~ Brian Vogel
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No, I'm talking about switching to screen review mode if there is only one object. It for me is much easier because of the way the laptop layout is designed, and most of the time, at least in the programs I use, screen review is much better and faster to use than object mode. If you want to see examples go to my lbry page and watch some of the videos I post, there. You will hear me using screen review, a lot. You will also hear me switch to screen review when I start the programs I need, then stay in screen review for the deration of the video(s) You will also see that arrows do not make any difference when I am using arrows which is, at least for what I do, rare. There are also other examples here as well.
I dun no know as I said how to use all the views perfectly, but I can get around fairly quickly in regard to what I need to do. I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review.
-----Original Message-----
If there is only one object, you don't necessarily have to go into review mode. You can simply use the review commands, numpad 8 for read current line, numpad 7 for previous line, numpad 9 for next line, etc. When doing so in object navigation, you are reviewing the current objject.
Going into screen review doesn't work on web pages because of how browsers send data to the screen.
Are you talking about using commands such as numpad 8 while in object navigation or are you talking about actually switching to screen review mode?
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review
I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website.
-----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review
You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review
I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem.
Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine.
Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode.
Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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Gene
That is not necessarily true and is an over generalization. A user doesn't have to learn screen review first. It is easier to understand and learn screen review first and a lot of people know how to use it from using other screen-readers that have that feature. There are times when you can see something with screen review you can't see in object review. there are times you can see something in object review you can't in screen review. If the user is advanced to the point where he/she needs access in ways many less advanced users do, they should learn both for good access.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
But you are making a certain statement that is not true. You can't use screen review on web pages. If you think you are, then you are using object review and you think you are using screen review. When you are using screen review, you can still move from object to object as though you were in objecct review. I don't use the laptop layout, but if you use the commands NVDA key numpad 4 or NVDA numpad 6, those move you from object to object regardless of whether you are in screen review or object review. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 11:23 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review No, I'm talking about switching to screen review mode if there is only one object. It for me is much easier because of the way the laptop layout is designed, and most of the time, at least in the programs I use, screen review is much better and faster to use than object mode. If you want to see examples go to my lbry page and watch some of the videos I post, there. You will hear me using screen review, a lot. You will also hear me switch to screen review when I start the programs I need, then stay in screen review for the deration of the video(s) You will also see that arrows do not make any difference when I am using arrows which is, at least for what I do, rare. There are also other examples here as well. I dun no know as I said how to use all the views perfectly, but I can get around fairly quickly in regard to what I need to do. I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 9:01 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review If there is only one object, you don't necessarily have to go into review mode. You can simply use the review commands, numpad 8 for read current line, numpad 7 for previous line, numpad 9 for next line, etc. When doing so in object navigation, you are reviewing the current objject. Going into screen review doesn't work on web pages because of how browsers send data to the screen. Are you talking about using commands such as numpad 8 while in object navigation or are you talking about actually switching to screen review mode? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 10:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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Gene
Also, your last statement makes no sense. You say you must learn screen review first, then interact with each object with object review. That is not true. When you move in screen review, you are not moving by object unless you are using certain object navigation commands that work in both modes to move from object to object. When in screen review, you can move from object to object, then look at the object using screen review commands. But you say, "I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review."
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You can often look at the screen using screen review then interact with whatever you are working with wile in screen review. You move to an item, then use the move mouse command or the activate command. Technically, I don't know if those commands are working with the item you are on as an object, but from the user's perspective, you are working with things while in screen review. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 11:23 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review No, I'm talking about switching to screen review mode if there is only one object. It for me is much easier because of the way the laptop layout is designed, and most of the time, at least in the programs I use, screen review is much better and faster to use than object mode. If you want to see examples go to my lbry page and watch some of the videos I post, there. You will hear me using screen review, a lot. You will also hear me switch to screen review when I start the programs I need, then stay in screen review for the deration of the video(s) You will also see that arrows do not make any difference when I am using arrows which is, at least for what I do, rare. There are also other examples here as well. I dun no know as I said how to use all the views perfectly, but I can get around fairly quickly in regard to what I need to do. I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 9:01 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review If there is only one object, you don't necessarily have to go into review mode. You can simply use the review commands, numpad 8 for read current line, numpad 7 for previous line, numpad 9 for next line, etc. When doing so in object navigation, you are reviewing the current objject. Going into screen review doesn't work on web pages because of how browsers send data to the screen. Are you talking about using commands such as numpad 8 while in object navigation or are you talking about actually switching to screen review mode? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 10:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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That's why I said document view on a website, not screen review. I believe there is a screen review as well on the website side of things. I must look when I'm not working. Yes, you can go from object to object. I do not, I do use document view to explore though. So, it behooves the user to be Perficient at both, starting with screen review/document review, then object review. It to me makes sense work flow wise.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 2:14 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review That is not necessarily true and is an over generalization. A user doesn't have to learn screen review first. It is easier to understand and learn screen review first and a lot of people know how to use it from using other screen-readers that have that feature. There are times when you can see something with screen review you can't see in object review. there are times you can see something in object review you can't in screen review. If the user is advanced to the point where he/she needs access in ways many less advanced users do, they should learn both for good access. But you are making a certain statement that is not true. You can't use screen review on web pages. If you think you are, then you are using object review and you think you are using screen review. When you are using screen review, you can still move from object to object as though you were in objecct review. I don't use the laptop layout, but if you use the commands NVDA key numpad 4 or NVDA numpad 6, those move you from object to object regardless of whether you are in screen review or object review. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 11:23 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review No, I'm talking about switching to screen review mode if there is only one object. It for me is much easier because of the way the laptop layout is designed, and most of the time, at least in the programs I use, screen review is much better and faster to use than object mode. If you want to see examples go to my lbry page and watch some of the videos I post, there. You will hear me using screen review, a lot. You will also hear me switch to screen review when I start the programs I need, then stay in screen review for the deration of the video(s) You will also see that arrows do not make any difference when I am using arrows which is, at least for what I do, rare. There are also other examples here as well. I dun no know as I said how to use all the views perfectly, but I can get around fairly quickly in regard to what I need to do. I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 9:01 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review If there is only one object, you don't necessarily have to go into review mode. You can simply use the review commands, numpad 8 for read current line, numpad 7 for previous line, numpad 9 for next line, etc. When doing so in object navigation, you are reviewing the current objject. Going into screen review doesn't work on web pages because of how browsers send data to the screen. Are you talking about using commands such as numpad 8 while in object navigation or are you talking about actually switching to screen review mode? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 10:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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Yes. Exactly. You look at the screen then interact with the objects within if you have to. I do this all the time with most programs I use now a days. I just did with BCUninstaller a few hours ago. I used both. So what I'm saying makes perfect sense, at least for me.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 3:06 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review Also, your last statement makes no sense. You say you must learn screen review first, then interact with each object with object review. That is not true. When you move in screen review, you are not moving by object unless you are using certain object navigation commands that work in both modes to move from object to object. When in screen review, you can move from object to object, then look at the object using screen review commands. But you say, "I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review." You can often look at the screen using screen review then interact with whatever you are working with wile in screen review. You move to an item, then use the move mouse command or the activate command. Technically, I don't know if those commands are working with the item you are on as an object, but from the user's perspective, you are working with things while in screen review. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 11:23 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review No, I'm talking about switching to screen review mode if there is only one object. It for me is much easier because of the way the laptop layout is designed, and most of the time, at least in the programs I use, screen review is much better and faster to use than object mode. If you want to see examples go to my lbry page and watch some of the videos I post, there. You will hear me using screen review, a lot. You will also hear me switch to screen review when I start the programs I need, then stay in screen review for the deration of the video(s) You will also see that arrows do not make any difference when I am using arrows which is, at least for what I do, rare. There are also other examples here as well. I dun no know as I said how to use all the views perfectly, but I can get around fairly quickly in regard to what I need to do. I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 9:01 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review If there is only one object, you don't necessarily have to go into review mode. You can simply use the review commands, numpad 8 for read current line, numpad 7 for previous line, numpad 9 for next line, etc. When doing so in object navigation, you are reviewing the current objject. Going into screen review doesn't work on web pages because of how browsers send data to the screen. Are you talking about using commands such as numpad 8 while in object navigation or are you talking about actually switching to screen review mode? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 10:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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Gene
I didn't notice you said document review. So I withdraw my comments about you confusing different views in large part. But there is your statement I commented about in a different message. I will leave that question opened as it isn't clarified.
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But why use document review on web sites. You can move around on web pages using the virtual cursor as if you are in a document with arrow keys, tab, quick navigation keys, etc. I see no advantage in seeing how the document is laid out or in efficiency in using document review. Of course, there are times when you are trying to activate something where you need to use the virtual mouse, but at those times, remaining in object navigation, routing the mouse to your location and clicking works fine. You may be able to do that in document review too, but I see no advantage. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 5:41 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review That's why I said document view on a website, not screen review. I believe there is a screen review as well on the website side of things. I must look when I'm not working. Yes, you can go from object to object. I do not, I do use document view to explore though. So, it behooves the user to be Perficient at both, starting with screen review/document review, then object review. It to me makes sense work flow wise. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 2:14 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review That is not necessarily true and is an over generalization. A user doesn't have to learn screen review first. It is easier to understand and learn screen review first and a lot of people know how to use it from using other screen-readers that have that feature. There are times when you can see something with screen review you can't see in object review. there are times you can see something in object review you can't in screen review. If the user is advanced to the point where he/she needs access in ways many less advanced users do, they should learn both for good access. But you are making a certain statement that is not true. You can't use screen review on web pages. If you think you are, then you are using object review and you think you are using screen review. When you are using screen review, you can still move from object to object as though you were in objecct review. I don't use the laptop layout, but if you use the commands NVDA key numpad 4 or NVDA numpad 6, those move you from object to object regardless of whether you are in screen review or object review. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 11:23 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review No, I'm talking about switching to screen review mode if there is only one object. It for me is much easier because of the way the laptop layout is designed, and most of the time, at least in the programs I use, screen review is much better and faster to use than object mode. If you want to see examples go to my lbry page and watch some of the videos I post, there. You will hear me using screen review, a lot. You will also hear me switch to screen review when I start the programs I need, then stay in screen review for the deration of the video(s) You will also see that arrows do not make any difference when I am using arrows which is, at least for what I do, rare. There are also other examples here as well. I dun no know as I said how to use all the views perfectly, but I can get around fairly quickly in regard to what I need to do. I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 9:01 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review If there is only one object, you don't necessarily have to go into review mode. You can simply use the review commands, numpad 8 for read current line, numpad 7 for previous line, numpad 9 for next line, etc. When doing so in object navigation, you are reviewing the current objject. Going into screen review doesn't work on web pages because of how browsers send data to the screen. Are you talking about using commands such as numpad 8 while in object navigation or are you talking about actually switching to screen review mode? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 10:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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Gene
I may understand what you are saying, but I never do that. If I am in object review, I use that and in screen review, I use that. While you can mix them, I've never done it. therefore, I will withdraw my comments regarding that you may be confused about what you are working with. I won't comment on how well your method works because I've never tried it.
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But I do have a question for those who may be able to answer it, perhaps primarily developers on the list. I've never understood why there is a document navigation mode. I can navigate documents using the plain review commands while in object review, such as numpad 8, read current line in the object, numpad 7, move to and read previous line in the object navigator, etc. I don't see anything that document review provides that matters. I understand that reviewing a document with the commands I've been discussing or in screen review allows you to move around without disturbing your cursor position, but that has been possible for as long as I've used NVDA before document review. Gene
On 2/3/2021 5:42 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Yes. Exactly. You look at the screen then interact with the objects within if you have to. I do this all the time with most programs I use now a days. I just did with BCUninstaller a few hours ago. I used both. So what I'm saying makes perfect sense, at least for me.
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If you go to http://qrz.com and try and access yoru profile you cannot unless you go to document view, find your call, click it, then use document review to find the expanded menu. Sometimes up and dow arrow will work, sometimes not, it depends on the site. Also if you go to http://simmarket.com you sometimes have to use document review to see what's going on especially when you are buying stuff. also at http://aavirtual.net, http://fdx.org, http://flyvirtual.net, etc. There are others where you were forced to use all 3 views, but I can't recall them as it's ben almost 10 years since i've been on those sites. -- Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
On 3 Feb 2021, at 16:03, Gene wrote:
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Hi Sarah. I have a quick question about www.qrz.com if you don't mind.
I still access that site using Jaws, because of how they display email addresses. If you look up somebody and find where their email address is listed, you hear text saying "use mouse to view". Simply exploring that area with the Jaws cursor makes the email address visible. How do I accomplish that in NVDA?
thanks Chris
On 2021-02-03 7:34 p.m., Sarah k
Alawami wrote:
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Gene
I wonder why. You would think that, dealing with the virtual cursor in Browse mode, you would see the same content by moving with the arrow keys.
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 6:34 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review If you go to http://qrz.com and try and access yoru profile you cannot unless you go to document view, find your call, click it, then use document review to find the expanded menu. Sometimes up and dow arrow will work, sometimes not, it depends on the site. Also if you go to http://simmarket.com you sometimes have to use document review to see what's going on especially when you are buying stuff. also at http://aavirtual.net, http://fdx.org, http://flyvirtual.net, etc. There are others where you were forced to use all 3 views, but I can't recall them as it's ben almost 10 years since i've been on those sites. -- Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here On 3 Feb 2021, at 16:03, Gene wrote: I didn't notice you said document review. So I withdraw my comments about you confusing different views in large part. But there is your statement I commented about in a different message. I will leave that question opened as it isn't clarified. But why use document review on web sites. You can move around on web pages using the virtual cursor as if you are in a document with arrow keys, tab, quick navigation keys, etc. I see no advantage in seeing how the document is laid out or in efficiency in using document review. Of course, there are times when you are trying to activate something where you need to use the virtual mouse, but at those times, remaining in object navigation, routing the mouse to your location and clicking works fine. You may be able to do that in document review too, but I see no advantage. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 5:41 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review That's why I said document view on a website, not screen review. I believe there is a screen review as well on the website side of things. I must look when I'm not working. Yes, you can go from object to object. I do not, I do use document view to explore though. So, it behooves the user to be Perficient at both, starting with screen review/document review, then object review. It to me makes sense work flow wise. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 2:14 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review That is not necessarily true and is an over generalization. A user doesn't have to learn screen review first. It is easier to understand and learn screen review first and a lot of people know how to use it from using other screen-readers that have that feature. There are times when you can see something with screen review you can't see in object review. there are times you can see something in object review you can't in screen review. If the user is advanced to the point where he/she needs access in ways many less advanced users do, they should learn both for good access. But you are making a certain statement that is not true. You can't use screen review on web pages. If you think you are, then you are using object review and you think you are using screen review. When you are using screen review, you can still move from object to object as though you were in objecct review. I don't use the laptop layout, but if you use the commands NVDA key numpad 4 or NVDA numpad 6, those move you from object to object regardless of whether you are in screen review or object review. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 11:23 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review No, I'm talking about switching to screen review mode if there is only one object. It for me is much easier because of the way the laptop layout is designed, and most of the time, at least in the programs I use, screen review is much better and faster to use than object mode. If you want to see examples go to my lbry page and watch some of the videos I post, there. You will hear me using screen review, a lot. You will also hear me switch to screen review when I start the programs I need, then stay in screen review for the deration of the video(s) You will also see that arrows do not make any difference when I am using arrows which is, at least for what I do, rare. There are also other examples here as well. I dun no know as I said how to use all the views perfectly, but I can get around fairly quickly in regard to what I need to do. I stress a user must learn screen review first, then interact with each element of the screen via object review. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 9:01 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review If there is only one object, you don't necessarily have to go into review mode. You can simply use the review commands, numpad 8 for read current line, numpad 7 for previous line, numpad 9 for next line, etc. When doing so in object navigation, you are reviewing the current objject. Going into screen review doesn't work on web pages because of how browsers send data to the screen. Are you talking about using commands such as numpad 8 while in object navigation or are you talking about actually switching to screen review mode? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2021 10:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I agree to a point, however I would learn how to use screen and document view. There will come a time when you must use them because programs don't work well in object mode. For example, there is only 1 object but a lot of stuff on the screen that can be clicked, or using screen review is the only way to get around the app/website. I know how to use all the views. I prefer screen review and use it for getting around when I have a recalcitrant app/website. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review You need to use object navigation. Screen review is much more limited in Windows 10 for technical reasons someone else will have to explain. When you use NVDA key b, you are actually reading all the objects available to the program. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 7:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review I have found the NVDA screen review inconsistent and I am trying to figure out why and how to get around the problem. Try this experiment: 1. Type Windows with R to issue the Run Command 2. Type an invalid drive letter say M: or I: and press enter. An Error message will appear. 3. Use Insert numpad 1 or Insert Numpad 7 to switch to screen review (you do not want to be in object review). 4. Use the 8 and 9 numpad keys to read the error message. This works fine. Now press Windows I to go to settings. 1. Arrow down and right to Update and Security. 2. Use Insert-B to read the entire screen. That works.. 3. But now try these review mode commands to review the screen. Insert 1 or 7 to make sure you are in Screen review mode 7 8 and 9 on the numeric keypad to read the top, current and following lines and keep pressing 9. You will only hear the word "Bottom". They do not work. You cannot read the Windows update screen in settings using screen review. You can explore your computer with object review, but I can't figure out how to read that screen, slowly at my own pace with the screen review mode. Why is this? When focus cannot go to all areas of a screen, how can I read what's there? Or even if focus can go there, how can I select and copy with NVDA-F9 and F10 or read it slower?
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Steve Nutt
Hi,
Usually, if you turn off virtual mode (NVDA Space) then up and down arrows will work on those kinds of websites, so I contend, as Jean does, that you don’t really need document view, unless I’m missing something.
All the best
-- Computer Room Services 77 Exeter Close Stevenage Hertfordshire SG1 4PW T: +44(0)1438-742286 M: +44(0)7956-334938 F: +44(0)1438-759589 E: steve@...
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: 04 February 2021 00:34 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review
If you go to http://qrz.com and try and access yoru profile you cannot unless you go to document view, find your call, click it, then use document review to find the expanded menu. Sometimes up and dow arrow will work, sometimes not, it depends on the site. Also if you go to http://simmarket.com you sometimes have to use document review to see what's going on especially when you are buying stuff. also at http://aavirtual.net, http://fdx.org, http://flyvirtual.net, etc. There are others where you were forced to use all 3 views, but I can't recall them as it's ben almost 10 years since i've been on those sites. -- Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here On 3 Feb 2021, at 16:03, Gene wrote:
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For me arrows do not work when you turn off browse mode. Only tab as far as I have found, the same can be with electron apps. I cannot use arrows, only tab. Or if I do use arrows, there is a lag, and a big one. I can use the shortcuts dedicated to the websites though in focus mode. So yes, document view for me on those sites and electron apps is necessary if needed.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2021 9:18 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning to be efficient with screen review
Hi,
Usually, if you turn off virtual mode (NVDA Space) then up and down arrows will work on those kinds of websites, so I contend, as Jean does, that you don’t really need document view, unless I’m missing something.
All the best
-- Computer Room Services 77 Exeter Close Stevenage Hertfordshire SG1 4PW T: +44(0)1438-742286 M: +44(0)7956-334938 F: +44(0)1438-759589 E: steve@...
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
If you go to http://qrz.com and try and access yoru profile you cannot unless you go to document view, find your call, click it, then use document review to find the expanded menu. Sometimes up and dow arrow will work, sometimes not, it depends on the site. Also if you go to http://simmarket.com you sometimes have to use document review to see what's going on especially when you are buying stuff. also at http://aavirtual.net, http://fdx.org, http://flyvirtual.net, etc. There are others where you were forced to use all 3 views, but I can't recall them as it's ben almost 10 years since i've been on those sites. -- Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here On 3 Feb 2021, at 16:03, Gene wrote:
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