Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode


bestuiexperience
 

I am working with a listbox from a UI library called downshift. It seems that with NVDA the user can only navigate the options with the cursor when in focus mode.
In browse mode, the options are not read out. I noticed that when in browse mode, before the list is announced NVDA says "clickable", but when already in focus mode it does not.
My question is would this announcement of "clickable" be enough to clue an NVDA user in that they must switch to focus mode in order to navigate the selections? 
Or should I provide them with some aria-describedby text advising them to switch to focus mode if they have trouble navigating and hearing the options.
Replacing this component, is unfortunately not an option at this time...


 

Isn't what you describe the typical behavior?

When I land on a listbox it's not until I expand it that I can traverse the list of options, which is precisely what I'd expect.  If I were in browse mode and landed on a listbox NVDA should shift to focus mode when one expands (clicks on, whether literal or keyboard equivalent) the listbox.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


bestuiexperience
 

There is an expand/collapse button which causes the listbox to expand/collapse. The listbox options are navigable using the arrow keys. The problem is NVDA does not automatically go into focus mode when the listbox is expanded. So if the user happened to be in browse mode they would hear the listbox name and the word list and the word clickable and the name of the first entry in the list. So my question is, would the typical NVDA user realize that they must switch to focus mode whenever they hear the word clickable?


Sarah k Alawami
 

I think they should if they read the manuals etc. If not, well, they would have to go back to the documentation and learn.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of bestuiexperience
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 11:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

 

There is an expand/collapse button which causes the listbox to expand/collapse. The listbox options are navigable using the arrow keys. The problem is NVDA does not automatically go into focus mode when the listbox is expanded. So if the user happened to be in browse mode they would hear the listbox name and the word list and the word clickable and the name of the first entry in the list. So my question is, would the typical NVDA user realize that they must switch to focus mode whenever they hear the word clickable?


 

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 03:34 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I think they should if they read the manuals etc. If not, well, they would have to go back to the documentation and learn.
-
Precisely.  

We repeatedly see that no matter what defaults may be, some don't like them and some don't understand them.  There is no solution to that other than to familiarize yourself with how your software works, regardless of how you go about doing that.

I've never found the way that NVDA handles dropdown boxes to be particularly difficult or counterintuitive.  And I've never seen anyone else question the behavior in the past.  [And this is not a criticism about having questioned it, just an observation.]
 
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Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


bestuiexperience
 

Just to be clear -- so you are saying that what I am describing should be well understood by the NVDA user (i.e., if they hear the word "clickable" for a listbox  it means they should switch to focus mode?


 

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 04:05 PM, bestuiexperience wrote:
Just to be clear -- so you are saying that what I am describing should be well understood by the NVDA user (i.e., if they hear the word "clickable" for a listbox  it means they should switch to focus mode?
-
I don't get what the sticking point is.  Pretty much any control other than an edit box requires you to activate (AKA click on in generic Windows terminolog, which is in actuality a combination of select followed by activate) them before you get "the desired effect."  With a listbox the desired effect, once it has focus, is to expand the list and allow you to interact with it to make a selection.

The user is not manually changing modes in any conventional sense of a forced mode change.  You can't, ever, even in the sighted way of doing things, interact with a dropdown list/listbox without first clicking on it.  It's in the clicking that the interaction becomes active.

For a screen reader user gaining focus on something, and activating something, are two separate things.  Whereas for a point and click user the act of clicking once you've pointed to the thing you click is what makes gaining focus and activating the control occur via what is a single step, or sure feels like one.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


bestuiexperience
 

I hope I am understanding now... Please confirm. For the listbox, if the user hears "clickable" it means that they have gained focus, but they have not yet activated the list. Activating the list is required   to navigate the options. I was able to activate the list by pressing the Enter key while still in Browse mode, and that act of pressing the Enter key activated the listbox so that I was then able to navigate the options. Is this correct? That being said, if a screen reader hears "clickable", they know they must activate the control (by pressing the Enter key) in order to interact with it. Correct?


 

If you hear "clickable," and not only for listboxes, it means you have landed on and gained focus on a control that must be activated if you wish it to take the action it takes.

I cannot remember whether this is for everything, as buttons are such that one knows that one must click on it to activate it, so I don't think you get "clickable" there.

But, yes, hearing clickable means you have gained focus on a control, and that the control remains unactivated, which is what one would typically want and expect if you were trying to traverse a page and activating only those things you need to activate based upon precisely what it is you're trying to accomplish.  

You used Enter to activate the listbox, which expands the list of options and allows you to use up/down arrow to traverse them, and to hit enter again on the one you want to make it your selection.

I tend to "mix and match" Enter and Spacebar for activating controls, with Enter being favored by me, and Spacebar used if Enter fails, or vice versa.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Jonathan COHN
 

Well, IMHO, whenever you encounter a screen reader saying "clickable", it means the web developer has not used ARIA to let the end user know the specific type of control you are working with and is therefore a failure of the Web Accessibility Guidelines. 
Generally, if a piece of HTML code has a click action attached to it and it is not a native link or button or does not have a role attribute telling the screen reader it is something else (listbox, button, slider …) then NVDA will say clickable. This just lets the NVDA user know that sending a click action should cause something to happen. If one is lucky, there might be a aria-haspopup attribute and then NVDA should say popup menu or something close to that.


Jonathan 

On Aug 23, 2021, at 17:38, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

If you hear "clickable," and not only for listboxes, it means you have landed on and gained focus on a control that must be activated if you wish it to take the action it takes.

I cannot remember whether this is for everything, as buttons are such that one knows that one must click on it to activate it, so I don't think you get "clickable" there.

But, yes, hearing clickable means you have gained focus on a control, and that the control remains unactivated, which is what one would typically want and expect if you were trying to traverse a page and activating only those things you need to activate based upon precisely what it is you're trying to accomplish.  

You used Enter to activate the listbox, which expands the list of options and allows you to use up/down arrow to traverse them, and to hit enter again on the one you want to make it your selection.

I tend to "mix and match" Enter and Spacebar for activating controls, with Enter being favored by me, and Spacebar used if Enter fails, or vice versa.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 06:08 PM, Jonathan COHN wrote:
IMHO, whenever you encounter a screen reader saying "clickable", it means the web developer has not used ARIA to let the end user know the specific type of control you are working with and is therefore a failure of the Web Accessibility Guidelines. 
-
Can't disagree with you there.

I have never really understood, really, why even "clickable" is necessary or preferable for the vast majority of screen reader users beyond those who are absolute beginners with a computer.

At this stage in history I presume, regardless of visual status, that most computer users know exactly what it is that needs to be activated to cause an action to occur versus an edit box, which you just fill in.  Almost everything is "clickable" when it comes down to it: Links, buttons, dropdown lists, and the list goes on and on.  The need to "click" to make something happen is the rule, not the exception.

I seem to recall when "clickable" started to be announced, and it was only a couple of years ago unless I'm wrong (and I could be).  It always struck me as "auditory clutter" that's not telling most users anything they don't already know.

But this is another thing where I am quite sure others would argue, and vehemently, that I am crazy to say that.  It's another example of what I mean by defaults need to be chosen and defaults are not always to a given user's liking.  If you can tweak things to turn on/off announcement of things like "clickable" then I'm perfectly happy to learn how to do that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


bestuiexperience
 

I see some advantages to announcing "clickable". In the example with the listbox it only says "clickable" when in browse mode because when the user is in focus mode, the control will automatically become activated as opposed to when in browse mode, the control needs first be activated before it can be used.



On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 6:23 PM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 06:08 PM, Jonathan COHN wrote:
IMHO, whenever you encounter a screen reader saying "clickable", it means the web developer has not used ARIA to let the end user know the specific type of control you are working with and is therefore a failure of the Web Accessibility Guidelines. 
-
Can't disagree with you there.

I have never really understood, really, why even "clickable" is necessary or preferable for the vast majority of screen reader users beyond those who are absolute beginners with a computer.

At this stage in history I presume, regardless of visual status, that most computer users know exactly what it is that needs to be activated to cause an action to occur versus an edit box, which you just fill in.  Almost everything is "clickable" when it comes down to it: Links, buttons, dropdown lists, and the list goes on and on.  The need to "click" to make something happen is the rule, not the exception.

I seem to recall when "clickable" started to be announced, and it was only a couple of years ago unless I'm wrong (and I could be).  It always struck me as "auditory clutter" that's not telling most users anything they don't already know.

But this is another thing where I am quite sure others would argue, and vehemently, that I am crazy to say that.  It's another example of what I mean by defaults need to be chosen and defaults are not always to a given user's liking.  If you can tweak things to turn on/off announcement of things like "clickable" then I'm perfectly happy to learn how to do that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Jackie
 

Brian, the problem is that the attribute being used is an on-click
attribute. Thus, the control is neither a link, a button, a checkbox,
a radio--in essence, although it may supposed to represent or simulate
1 of these things, and a sighted person may find it indistinguishable,
if the control doesn't announce itself as being clickable, we won't
know that it indeed is.

On 8/23/21, bestuiexperience <bestuiexperience@gmail.com> wrote:
I see some advantages to announcing "clickable". In the example with the
listbox it only says "clickable" when in browse mode because when the user
is in focus mode, the control will automatically become activated as
opposed to when in browse mode, the control needs first be activated before
it can be used.



On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 6:23 PM Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 06:08 PM, Jonathan COHN wrote:

IMHO, whenever you encounter a screen reader saying "clickable", it means
the web developer has not used ARIA to let the end user know the specific
type of control you are working with and is therefore a failure of the
Web
Accessibility Guidelines.

-
Can't disagree with you there.

I have never really understood, really, why even "clickable" is necessary
or preferable for the vast majority of screen reader users beyond those
who
are absolute beginners with a computer.

At this stage in history I presume, regardless of visual status, that
most
computer users know exactly what it is that needs to be activated to
cause
an action to occur versus an edit box, which you just fill in. Almost
everything is "clickable" when it comes down to it: Links, buttons,
dropdown lists, and the list goes on and on. The need to "click" to make
something happen is the rule, not the exception.

I seem to recall when "clickable" started to be announced, and it was
only
a couple of years ago unless I'm wrong (and I could be). It always
struck
me as "auditory clutter" that's not telling most users anything they
don't
already know.

But this is another thing where I am quite sure others would argue, and
vehemently, that I am crazy to say that. It's another example of what I
mean by defaults need to be chosen and defaults are not always to a given
user's liking. If you can tweak things to turn on/off announcement of
things like "clickable" then I'm perfectly happy to learn how to do that.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity.

~Martin Luther King, Jr.








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Bruno Aníbal Prieto González
 

Hi, this problem is old, I created an issue some time ago notifying
the problem, as I found it in several React libraries, even in the W3C
example, so it is definitely a NVDA problem.

If you want to support with a comment, here is the link:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/12266

Thanks, best regards

2021-08-23 20:30 GMT-04:00, Jackie <abletec@gmail.com>:

Brian, the problem is that the attribute being used is an on-click
attribute. Thus, the control is neither a link, a button, a checkbox,
a radio--in essence, although it may supposed to represent or simulate
1 of these things, and a sighted person may find it indistinguishable,
if the control doesn't announce itself as being clickable, we won't
know that it indeed is.

On 8/23/21, bestuiexperience <bestuiexperience@gmail.com> wrote:
I see some advantages to announcing "clickable". In the example with the
listbox it only says "clickable" when in browse mode because when the
user
is in focus mode, the control will automatically become activated as
opposed to when in browse mode, the control needs first be activated
before
it can be used.



On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 6:23 PM Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 06:08 PM, Jonathan COHN wrote:

IMHO, whenever you encounter a screen reader saying "clickable", it
means
the web developer has not used ARIA to let the end user know the
specific
type of control you are working with and is therefore a failure of the
Web
Accessibility Guidelines.

-
Can't disagree with you there.

I have never really understood, really, why even "clickable" is
necessary
or preferable for the vast majority of screen reader users beyond those
who
are absolute beginners with a computer.

At this stage in history I presume, regardless of visual status, that
most
computer users know exactly what it is that needs to be activated to
cause
an action to occur versus an edit box, which you just fill in. Almost
everything is "clickable" when it comes down to it: Links, buttons,
dropdown lists, and the list goes on and on. The need to "click" to
make
something happen is the rule, not the exception.

I seem to recall when "clickable" started to be announced, and it was
only
a couple of years ago unless I'm wrong (and I could be). It always
struck
me as "auditory clutter" that's not telling most users anything they
don't
already know.

But this is another thing where I am quite sure others would argue, and
vehemently, that I am crazy to say that. It's another example of what I
mean by defaults need to be chosen and defaults are not always to a
given
user's liking. If you can tweak things to turn on/off announcement of
things like "clickable" then I'm perfectly happy to learn how to do
that.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity.

~Martin Luther King, Jr.









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Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
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& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com