Topics

Making NVDA reconsider focus

Perry Simm
 

Hi!
Is there a way to tell NVDA to refresh its notion of what is going on, similarly to what JAWS does when I press insert+escape?
Alternatively, is there an API function one might call to achieve this? I'd be happy to write an add-on for this, and make it available, too.
I'm just tired of having to alt+tab out of something and back into it every time NVDA does its focus tracking failure thingy. In quantum mechanics terms, I'd like to observe without influencing. Yes, I know in QM it's impossible.
On a related note, what's the status with that focus tracking bug? Haven't followed it too closely in recent months, but given its severity, I assume someone's on the case?
Cheers Perry

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

 

Hi
Press NVDA+F5 for this job.
Cuong

On 7/9/2019 2:16 PM, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi!
Is there a way to tell NVDA to refresh its notion of what is going on, similarly to what JAWS does when I press insert+escape?
Alternatively, is there an API function one might call to achieve this? I'd be happy to write an add-on for this, and make it available, too.
I'm just tired of having to alt+tab out of something and back into it every time NVDA does its focus tracking failure thingy. In quantum mechanics terms, I'd like to observe without influencing. Yes, I know in QM it's impossible.
On a related note, what's the status with that focus tracking bug? Haven't followed it too closely in recent months, but given its severity, I assume someone's on the case?
Cheers Perry

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.



Perry Simm
 

Hi!
On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 9:46 AM, Dang Manh Cuong <@cuongdang> wrote:
Press NVDA+F5 for this job.
Are you sure this is not restricted to browse mode?
Cheers Perry

 

Hi
Not sure I understand you correctly, but I used to do that in case such as downloading file from a site that if I don't refresh the screen like using on Jaws, then I must switch to another windows then switch back to update the download progress
Hope that help
Cuong

On 7/9/2019 2:54 PM, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi!
On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 9:46 AM, Dang Manh Cuong <@cuongdang> wrote:
Press NVDA+F5 for this job.
Are you sure this is not restricted to browse mode?
Cheers Perry

Perry Simm
 

Hi Cuong!
Yes, thank you, that's a very useful hotkey!
My problem is a bit different, but still, thanks a lot!
Cheers Perry

Gene
 

I think that works only when in browse mode.  If there is a general refresh screen command, I don't know it.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Making NVDA reconsider focus

Hi!
On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 9:46 AM, Dang Manh Cuong <dangmanhcuong@...> wrote:
> Press NVDA+F5 for this job.
Are you sure this is not restricted to browse mode?
Cheers Perry


Sarah k Alawami
 

I would actually want this to work everywhere. As I use a lot of windows that refresh constantly. And if nvda loses focus in one of those windows, that's kind of not good.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Jul 2019, at 1:16, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi Cuong!
Yes, thank you, that's a very useful hotkey!
My problem is a bit different, but still, thanks a lot!
Cheers Perry

Mike Sedmak
 

I find that simply hitting ALT twice often has the same effect s the
double alt-tab without having to switch windows. YMMB

Mike

On 7/9/19, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
I would actually want this to work everywhere. As I use a lot of windows
that refresh constantly. And if nvda loses focus in one of those
windows, that's kind of not good.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our
[website.](http://www.tffppodcast.com) This is also our libsyn page as
well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go
[here.](http://www.tffppodcast.com/premium)
and for hosting options go [here](http://www.tffppodcast.com/hosting)
to subscribe to the feed click [here](http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp)

Our [telegram](https://t.me/tffppodcast) channel is also a good place
for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.


Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go
[here](Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast)

On 9 Jul 2019, at 1:16, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi Cuong!
Yes, thank you, that's a very useful hotkey!
My problem is a bit different, but still, thanks a lot!
Cheers Perry



Gene
 

Refreshing the screen isn't a focus problem.  If you lose focus, you are not in the application any longer.  Refreshing the screen is done if old information persists after it shouldn't or if information is displayed incorrectly.
 
I believe that you can refresh the screen by leaving and returning to the application.  But if you lose focus, that is a separate problem.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Making NVDA reconsider focus

I find that simply hitting ALT twice often has the same effect s the
double alt-tab without having to switch windows.  YMMB

Mike

On 7/9/19, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
> I would actually want this to work everywhere. As I use a lot of windows
> that refresh constantly.  And if nvda loses focus in one of those
> windows, that's kind of not good.
>
> Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our
> [website.](http://www.tffppodcast.com) This is also our libsyn page as
> well.
> For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go
> [here.](http://www.tffppodcast.com/premium)
> and for hosting options go [here](http://www.tffppodcast.com/hosting)
> to subscribe to the feed click [here](http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp)
>
> Our [telegram](https://t.me/tffppodcast) channel is also a good place
> for an announce only  in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.
>
>
> Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go
> [here](Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast)
>
> On 9 Jul 2019, at 1:16, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:
>
>> Hi Cuong!
>> Yes, thank you, that's a very useful hotkey!
>> My problem is a bit different, but still, thanks a lot!
>> Cheers Perry
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


Sarah k Alawami
 

Depends on the program. The programs I use, the menu bar is not accessible but with OCR. So in my case it does not work.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Jul 2019, at 10:58, Mike Sedmak wrote:

I find that simply hitting ALT twice often has the same effect s the
double alt-tab without having to switch windows. YMMB

Mike

On 7/9/19, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I would actually want this to work everywhere. As I use a lot of windows
that refresh constantly. And if nvda loses focus in one of those
windows, that's kind of not good.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our
[website.](http://www.tffppodcast.com) This is also our libsyn page as
well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go
[here.](http://www.tffppodcast.com/premium)
and for hosting options go [here](http://www.tffppodcast.com/hosting)
to subscribe to the feed click [here](http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp)

Our [telegram](https://t.me/tffppodcast) channel is also a good place
for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.


Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go
[here](Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast)

On 9 Jul 2019, at 1:16, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi Cuong!
Yes, thank you, that's a very useful hotkey!
My problem is a bit different, but still, thanks a lot!
Cheers Perry

Luke Davis
 

Perry, can you provide some examples of circumstances where you are having to alt-tab out and in of something to re-acquire focus?

As an aside, glad to see another Proton Mail user!

Luke

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

Yes, thank you, that's a very useful hotkey!
My problem is a bit different, but still, thanks a lot!

Perry Simm
 

Hi Luke!
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 3:35 AM, Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:

Perry, can you provide some examples of circumstances where you are having to
alt-tab out and in of something to re-acquire focus?
Sure! The prime example is when I launch a program, such as a browser. A few seconds later, I know I'm in the address bar, and a sighted person can confirm this to me, but there's no speech indicating this. Focus is really in the address bar, and I can type into it. It's just that NVDA hasn't tracked it. Alt+tabbing out then back in resolves it for the moment.

As an aside, glad to see another Proton Mail user!
I'm loving it! As a visitor to many worlds, I prefer to be intractable and untrackable.
Cheers Perry

Quentin Christensen
 

Is it one browser particularly or all browsers which do this?  Certainly it's not desired behaviour, but I can't replicate it myself just now.

Two things I can think to try though:
- Are you using any add-ons which might steal focus or interrupt what is happening when you start your Browser?  Dropbox (from memory) did this at one point in Word, and I've heard of several anti-virus programs which do similar things.

- Otherwise, you could try running the COM registration fixing tool from NVDA's Tools menu.  This is designed to ensure that all needed DLL files are registered correctly.  Generally programs do this when they are installed, however sometimes installing or uninstalling programs can inadvertently deregister DLLs.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 5:14 PM Perry Simm via Groups.Io <perry.simm=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Luke!
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 3:35 AM, Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:

> Perry, can you provide some examples of circumstances where you are having to
> alt-tab out and in of something to re-acquire focus?

Sure! The prime example is when I launch a program, such as a browser. A few seconds later, I know I'm in the address bar, and a sighted person can confirm this to me, but there's no speech indicating this. Focus is really in the address bar, and I can type into it. It's just that NVDA hasn't tracked it. Alt+tabbing out then back in resolves it for the moment.

> As an aside, glad to see another Proton Mail user!

I'm loving it! As a visitor to many worlds, I prefer to be intractable and untrackable.
Cheers Perry





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

NVDA 2019.2beta1 now available!

Perry Simm
 

Hi Quentin!

On Monday, July 15, 2019 5:27 AM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:

Is it one browser particularly or all browsers which do this?  Certainly it's not desired behaviour, but I can't replicate it myself just now.
It isn't even restricted to browsers. Sometimes it is Outlook, sometimes Visual Studio, sometimes Word.

Two things I can think to try though:
- Are you using any add-ons which might steal focus or interrupt what is happening when you start your Browser?  Dropbox (from memory) did this at one point in Word, and I've heard of several anti-virus programs which do similar things.
No. In fact, focus is not stolen. Focus is where it should be at all times, only NVDA does not always track it.

- Otherwise, you could try running the COM registration fixing tool from NVDA's Tools menu.  This is designed to ensure that all needed DLL files are registered correctly.  Generally programs do this when they are installed, however sometimes installing or uninstalling programs can inadvertently deregister DLLs.
If some DLL were not correctly registered, these problems would occur every time I followed a certain script, not just intermittently.

It is a long-standing bug in NVDA, reported by some, reproduced by others, rehashed, reviewed, reconsidered, but, for months and months, never resolved. And now I should refrain from using so many rephrasings beginning with re but return to my regular revenue with relentless resolve.
Regards Perry

Luke Davis
 

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

Sure! The prime example is when I launch a program, such as a browser. A few seconds later, I know I'm in the address bar, and a sighted person can confirm this to me, but there's no speech indicating this. Focus is really in the address bar, and I can type into it. It's just that NVDA hasn't tracked it. Alt+tabbing out then back in resolves it for the moment.
I would not call that a loss of focus, but a never gaining of focus.

And as you say, it's an old problem which has existed for many years, across many windows versions, NVDA versions, etc. Although I most commonly experience it when launching Firefox from the desktop for the first time after a restart.

I understood your initial problem differently--I do not have the message now before me, but some how I had gotten the impression that you had programs where the focus was correctly associated with a field, and then for some reason got lost, thus requiring a double alt-tab to re-acquire.

Luke

Quentin Christensen
 

Re my comment about other programs "stealing focus", I phrased that badly - while that's the way it appears to NVDA, you are right, in many cases, you can press all the usual keystrokes and the correct things happen in the program as they normally would, but NVDA does not report them because it has been trapped by some invisible overlay the other program has put on the screen.  In some cases, moving the focus away and back does fix that issue.

Similarly with the DLL registration issue, it might not cause an issue for a sighted user, but it affects how NVDA collects its information.  If it isn't happening consistently then as you say, it may not be that.

The best I can suggest, is if you could set NVDA's log level to debug, try to recreate the issue, and send us a copy of the log from it.

Kind regards

Quentin

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:13 AM Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

> Sure! The prime example is when I launch a program, such as a browser. A few seconds later, I know I'm in the address bar, and a sighted person can confirm this to me, but there's no speech indicating this. Focus is really in the address bar, and I can type into it. It's just that NVDA hasn't tracked it. Alt+tabbing out then back in resolves it for the moment.

I would not call that a loss of focus, but a never gaining of focus.

And as you say, it's an old problem which has existed for many years, across
many windows versions, NVDA versions, etc.  Although I most commonly experience
it when launching Firefox from the desktop for the first time after a restart.

I understood your initial problem differently--I do not have the message now
before me, but some how I had gotten the impression that you had programs where
the focus was correctly associated with a field, and then for some reason got
lost, thus requiring a double alt-tab to re-acquire.

Luke






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

NVDA 2019.2beta1 now available!

Cohn, Jonathan
 

I was thinking that even just a insert-F1 listing of what is the NVDA current focus and what screen shows focus as might be helpful.

 

Jonathan

 

 

From: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
Reply-To: "nvda@nvda.groups.io" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Date: Monday, July 15, 2019 at 7:21 PM
To: "nvda@nvda.groups.io" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Making NVDA reconsider focus

 

Re my comment about other programs "stealing focus", I phrased that badly - while that's the way it appears to NVDA, you are right, in many cases, you can press all the usual keystrokes and the correct things happen in the program as they normally would, but NVDA does not report them because it has been trapped by some invisible overlay the other program has put on the screen.  In some cases, moving the focus away and back does fix that issue.

 

Similarly with the DLL registration issue, it might not cause an issue for a sighted user, but it affects how NVDA collects its information.  If it isn't happening consistently then as you say, it may not be that.

 

The best I can suggest, is if you could set NVDA's log level to debug, try to recreate the issue, and send us a copy of the log from it.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin

 

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:13 AM Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

> Sure! The prime example is when I launch a program, such as a browser. A few seconds later, I know I'm in the address bar, and a sighted person can confirm this to me, but there's no speech indicating this. Focus is really in the address bar, and I can type into it. It's just that NVDA hasn't tracked it. Alt+tabbing out then back in resolves it for the moment.

I would not call that a loss of focus, but a never gaining of focus.

And as you say, it's an old problem which has existed for many years, across
many windows versions, NVDA versions, etc.  Although I most commonly experience
it when launching Firefox from the desktop for the first time after a restart.

I understood your initial problem differently--I do not have the message now
before me, but some how I had gotten the impression that you had programs where
the focus was correctly associated with a field, and then for some reason got
lost, thus requiring a double alt-tab to re-acquire.

Luke




 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

NVDA 2019.2beta1 now available!

 

Quentin Christensen
 

It might be enough, but the issue could also be caused by things which happen earlier.  For instance, an error occurring (in NVDA) when trying to display the program window.  In that case, the most useful information would come from the log just before the loss of focus.

In any case, you could provide both by recreating the issue, pressing NVDA+F1 and copying everything (the focus information is presented at the end of the log on that screen).

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 12:27 PM Cohn, Jonathan <jcohn@...> wrote:

I was thinking that even just a insert-F1 listing of what is the NVDA current focus and what screen shows focus as might be helpful.

 

Jonathan

 

 

From: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
Reply-To: "nvda@nvda.groups.io" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Date: Monday, July 15, 2019 at 7:21 PM
To: "nvda@nvda.groups.io" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Making NVDA reconsider focus

 

Re my comment about other programs "stealing focus", I phrased that badly - while that's the way it appears to NVDA, you are right, in many cases, you can press all the usual keystrokes and the correct things happen in the program as they normally would, but NVDA does not report them because it has been trapped by some invisible overlay the other program has put on the screen.  In some cases, moving the focus away and back does fix that issue.

 

Similarly with the DLL registration issue, it might not cause an issue for a sighted user, but it affects how NVDA collects its information.  If it isn't happening consistently then as you say, it may not be that.

 

The best I can suggest, is if you could set NVDA's log level to debug, try to recreate the issue, and send us a copy of the log from it.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin

 

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:13 AM Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

> Sure! The prime example is when I launch a program, such as a browser. A few seconds later, I know I'm in the address bar, and a sighted person can confirm this to me, but there's no speech indicating this. Focus is really in the address bar, and I can type into it. It's just that NVDA hasn't tracked it. Alt+tabbing out then back in resolves it for the moment.

I would not call that a loss of focus, but a never gaining of focus.

And as you say, it's an old problem which has existed for many years, across
many windows versions, NVDA versions, etc.  Although I most commonly experience
it when launching Firefox from the desktop for the first time after a restart.

I understood your initial problem differently--I do not have the message now
before me, but some how I had gotten the impression that you had programs where
the focus was correctly associated with a field, and then for some reason got
lost, thus requiring a double alt-tab to re-acquire.

Luke




 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

NVDA 2019.2beta1 now available!

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

NVDA 2019.2beta1 now available!

Luke Davis
 

Perry and others,

I didn't know this when I posted before, but there is discussion of this issue on GitHub, which I have just found. It would probably be helpful if you could post your experiences there as well, along with debug logs if any, although likely they will be the same as what has already been posted. I intend to add my own information the next time I run into this.

This issue needs as much attention as it can get, as it is still on-going for many of us. The URL is:

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8389

Luke

On Mon, 15 Jul 2019, Luke Davis wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Perry Simm via Groups.Io wrote:

Sure! The prime example is when I launch a program, such as a browser. A few seconds later, I know I'm in the address bar, and a sighted person can confirm this to me, but there's no speech indicating this. Focus is really in the address bar, and I can type into it. It's just that NVDA hasn't tracked it. Alt+tabbing out then back in resolves it for the moment.
[.]
And as you say, it's an old problem which has existed for many years, across many windows versions, NVDA versions, etc.