Topics

more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox


Gene
 

But its better to use the intended command for the intended purpose.  Yes, u works on new sites the way k does.  but how am I going to remember all sites I've visited over a long time?  And what if someone sends me a link in a message to an article and I then look around on the site and, if it’s a site I almost never use, I don't remember? 
 
In addition to or even aside from such considerations, it's just better in general to use intended commands for their intended purpose and not start using various commands for purposes they weren't intended for.  If you do that in enough programs, you'll be inconsistently using commands and its just a bad practice in logic and organization, and you may use them in situations where they won't work as expected.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 11:56 AM, Gene wrote:
U is intended for sites you have visited before and you only want to see links you haven't gone to before. 
U is intended to visit only links that one has previously not visited - unvisited links, regardless of whether you've visited a site before or not.  It's perfectly appropriate to use when one knows one is visiting a site for the first time and, in that case, is directly analogous with K.  It is only if one is visiting a site one has been to before, and in addition followed links there, where there is any distinction between visited and unvisited links.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Mallard
 

Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge, Firefox (several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For example, in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you can share stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within the list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like that, I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the site.


Mallard
 

I'm pleased to report that Seonaid Beckwith, creator and owner of the


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


website, following my email, has solved the unlabelled links issue in the paid section of her site.


Her site is great for learning English, and she's very sensitive to accessibility, which makes it worth following.


Ciao,

Ollie

Il 27/12/2018 19:54, Mallard ha scritto:
Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge, Firefox (several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For example, in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you can share stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within the list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like that, I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the site.




enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

this is also an NVDA issue. This happened since firefox 57. An example:

go to

http://lib.metu.edu.tr

and go to the trial databases heading, which has a few links. Normally, with firefox 56, nvda reads the names of the databases on the links. However, above 57, they are just read as "link".

On 12/27/2018 3:48 AM, Governor staten wrote:

Hello list. My subject line aptly describes the issue. Recently, I’ve seen more sites with unlabeled links than I’ve seen in recent memory, or ever before. I’ve seen them on paypal.com, yetcast.simplecast.fm Simplecast.com, and other places. Why is this? I’m using latest version of NVDA with latest version of Firefox, version 64. Will have to do more testing to see if this occurs in Edge and Chrome. Any ideas as to how to troubleshoot would be appreciated.

 

An extra point of information, I am running the latest alpha. My roommate is running the latest stable version, 2018.4, along with same version of Firefox. He is seeing some of the same things I am, particularly on Simplecast.com and yetcast.simplecast.fm. Thanks to all in advance for any assistance that can be given.


Gene
 

If you are talking about something like going to a site that has something like a video to watch on the site and there are links that just say question mark link, I've seen them.  I followed some of them and they are mostly links for sharing whatever it is to places like Facebook or Social Media.  You may be talking about the same thing.  But I don't think that is a problem of NVdA's and I don't know if NVDA can do anything about it.  Whether it might be made to read underlying code in such linkks, I don't know.  I also don't know if that were done, if it would read code elsewhere that wouldn't be desirable.  If that is what you are talking about, further discussion will have to be done by others because it is beyond my technical knowledge. 
 
I generally ignore such links because it appears that they are generally what I said they are and I have no interest in them.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Mallard
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge, Firefox
(several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For example,
in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you can share
stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within the
list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like that,
I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but
there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the site.




mk360
 

Has I've seen, the problem is present in all versions of NVDA that I tested from Firefox 58 to latest, or in other words, On Firefox quantum with NVDA.
For example, go to http://civil.pjud.cl a spanish site to consult about judicial causes that is not too accessible, but until Firefox 57 the links to consult and delete was read, from Firefox 58 to latest, the 2 links are read only as "Link".

Regards,
mk.

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 4:49 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If you are talking about something like going to a site that has something like a video to watch on the site and there are links that just say question mark link, I've seen them.  I followed some of them and they are mostly links for sharing whatever it is to places like Facebook or Social Media.  You may be talking about the same thing.  But I don't think that is a problem of NVdA's and I don't know if NVDA can do anything about it.  Whether it might be made to read underlying code in such linkks, I don't know.  I also don't know if that were done, if it would read code elsewhere that wouldn't be desirable.  If that is what you are talking about, further discussion will have to be done by others because it is beyond my technical knowledge. 
 
I generally ignore such links because it appears that they are generally what I said they are and I have no interest in them.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mallard
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge, Firefox
(several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For example,
in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you can share
stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within the
list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like that,
I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but
there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the site.




Gene
 

You said this is an NVDA issue.  have you tried it with other screen-readers?  Version 57 of Firefox isn't too far behind the release of Quantum.  They may have been making some changes leading up to it that causes this problem.  Or they may have changed something unrelated.  Whatever the case, we don't know, based on your description, who is responsible or if NVDA can compensate for it.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

hi,

this is also an NVDA issue. This happened since firefox 57. An example:

go to

http://lib.metu.edu.tr

and go to the trial databases heading, which has a few links. Normally, with firefox 56, nvda reads the names of the databases on the links. However, above 57, they are just read as "link".

On 12/27/2018 3:48 AM, Governor staten wrote:

Hello list. My subject line aptly describes the issue. Recently, I’ve seen more sites with unlabeled links than I’ve seen in recent memory, or ever before. I’ve seen them on paypal.com, yetcast.simplecast.fm Simplecast.com, and other places. Why is this? I’m using latest version of NVDA with latest version of Firefox, version 64. Will have to do more testing to see if this occurs in Edge and Chrome. Any ideas as to how to troubleshoot would be appreciated.

 

An extra point of information, I am running the latest alpha. My roommate is running the latest stable version, 2018.4, along with same version of Firefox. He is seeing some of the same things I am, particularly on Simplecast.com and yetcast.simplecast.fm. Thanks to all in advance for any assistance that can be given.


Gene
 

That would indicate that it is a change made in Firefox that causes NVDA not to see the text on certain links.  Whether that is something Firefox needs to correct or something NVDA can change to accommodate, the problem appears to be caused by a change in Firefox.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: mk360
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

Has I've seen, the problem is present in all versions of NVDA that I tested from Firefox 58 to latest, or in other words, On Firefox quantum with NVDA.
For example, go to http://civil.pjud.cl a spanish site to consult about judicial causes that is not too accessible, but until Firefox 57 the links to consult and delete was read, from Firefox 58 to latest, the 2 links are read only as "Link".

Regards,
mk.

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 4:49 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If you are talking about something like going to a site that has something like a video to watch on the site and there are links that just say question mark link, I've seen them.  I followed some of them and they are mostly links for sharing whatever it is to places like Facebook or Social Media.  You may be talking about the same thing.  But I don't think that is a problem of NVdA's and I don't know if NVDA can do anything about it.  Whether it might be made to read underlying code in such linkks, I don't know.  I also don't know if that were done, if it would read code elsewhere that wouldn't be desirable.  If that is what you are talking about, further discussion will have to be done by others because it is beyond my technical knowledge. 
 
I generally ignore such links because it appears that they are generally what I said they are and I have no interest in them.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mallard
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge, Firefox
(several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For example,
in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you can share
stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within the
list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like that,
I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but
there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the site.




 

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 01:11 PM, Gene wrote:
it's just better in general to use intended commands for their intended purpose and not start using various commands for purposes they weren't intended for. 
Gene,

             Believe it or not your way is not, and never will be, the one, true way.

              I do not, ever, need to be lectured by you about "the intent" of a given command, as I know what they can be appropriately used for, which is very often at distinct variance with your opinion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


 

I'll save this link to give a look on this later. It's nice to know that someone still cares about our accessibility on their work :)
Em 27/12/2018 17:03, Mallard escreveu:

I'm pleased to report that Seonaid Beckwith, creator and owner of the


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


website, following my email, has solved the unlabelled links issue in the paid section of her site.


Her site is great for learning English, and she's very sensitive to accessibility, which makes it worth following.


Ciao,

Ollie




Il 27/12/2018 19:54, Mallard ha scritto:
Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge, Firefox (several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For example, in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you can share stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within the list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like that, I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the site.











Gene
 

Will people please check addresses character by character before sending a message if they write or dictate them and not paste them from the address bar.  I see errors in addresses far to often on the lists I follow when people type them.  This link is not correct.  A dash was used before the com.  The address is:
I understand that we live in an era where people write however they wish.  But when writing something where precision matters, a path statement, a web site address, a mathematical formula, the time of an event, it is necessary to check what is written.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Mallard
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

I'm pleased to report that Seonaid Beckwith, creator and owner of the


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


website, following my email, has solved the unlabelled links issue in
the paid section of her site.


Her site is great for learning English, and she's very sensitive to
accessibility, which makes it worth following.


Ciao,

Ollie




Il 27/12/2018 19:54, Mallard ha scritto:
> Hello Gne,
>
>
> Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge,
> Firefox (several versions), Different computers.
>
> Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.
>
>
> I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.
>
>
> However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For
> example, in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you
> can share stuff on.
>
>
> On another occasion, in
>
>
> www.perfect-english-grammar-com
>
>
> under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within
> the list of courses.
>
>
> If I come across some site that has free access to something like
> that, I'll post it.
>
>
>
> By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but
> there was nothing to be read.
>
>
> Ciao,
>
> Ollie
>
> ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the
> site.
>
>
>
>
>



Gene
 

I'm sorry if you consider my comments a lecture and dictatorial.  You may disagree with me and that's fine.  but what you interpret as dictatorial is simply a firm statement of what I strongly believe is good practice.  I'm sorry if it sounds to you like being dictatorial.  It isn't. 
 
There are times when different ways of doing things are a matter or largely a matter of preference.  If someone wants to type the name or part of the name of a program into the start menu search field instead of using short cut keys or moving to the desktop and pressing enter on an icon to open a program, that is more or less a matter of preference.  I can point out the most efficient way to open programs but if someone wants to use another way, even if its slower, that is his preference.  That is not the case here.  We are talking about specific commands with different intended purposes and different functions. 
 
K is intended and is described as a move by links command.  If you are on a site you have visited before and you only want to move to unvisited links, then u is the proper command to use.  If you use u indiscriminately in place of k, you may use it on a site you have visited before and don't remember you have.  You may miss links.  Again, and maybe if I phrase it differently, you will not take offense.  I strongly believe that it is good practice to use commands for their intended purposes.  All the various ways I mentioned in my preference example are commands used for their intended purposes.  Windows has perhaps four or five different ways of opening programs but they are all intended for that purpose. You are advocating using a command with a different purpose because, if you use it in a certain context, it will work in the same way.  that leaves someone doing that opened to using it in error in an unintended context with unintended results. 
 
I would think that a bit of common sense would tell you when I am expressing something I believe strongly and that I don't think should be qualified and when I am being dictatorial.  I didn't say, do this.  I said it is good practice and I explained why.  I also stated my position so that anyone else following the thread will know what I think.  I don't just discuss points and argue my position for the one person I am conversing with directly at the time.  There are over one-thousand members of this list.  I am writing for anyone interested. 
Your reply is almost insulting in this passage:
You are accusing me of having poorly supported or erroneous opinions based on incorrect thought or incorrect facts.  Neither is true and you don't have to be insulting.  You are not the only one who can be angered or offended.  But I control it and don't make things personal.  I would appreciate a little more temperate responses when you disagree and that you consider that what may seem to you like being arbitrary and dictatorial may not be when given a little thought and viewed in the context of discussing matters on the list for the list.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 01:11 PM, Gene wrote:
it's just better in general to use intended commands for their intended purpose and not start using various commands for purposes they weren't intended for. 
Gene,

             Believe it or not your way is not, and never will be, the one, true way.

              I do not, ever, need to be lectured by you about "the intent" of a given command, as I know what they can be appropriately used for, which is very often at distinct variance with your opinion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Gene
 

I forgot to paste In  the section that is almost a personal attack.  Here it is:
              I do not, ever, need to be lectured by you about "the intent" of a given command, as I know what they can be appropriately used for, which is very often at distinct variance with your opinion.
In this diatribe, you are stating that I am often mistaken in my knowledge of such commands and their intended use.  That is very close to, maybe it even is, a personal attack as stated and it is not factually correct.  I am very careful to learn proper commands and their uses. 
 
And we aren't talking about opinions.  it is factuallly correct that if you use an incorrect command that works in some contexts and not others, you leave yourself opened to unexpected results. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

I'm sorry if you consider my comments a lecture and dictatorial.  You may disagree with me and that's fine.  but what you interpret as dictatorial is simply a firm statement of what I strongly believe is good practice.  I'm sorry if it sounds to you like being dictatorial.  It isn't. 
 
There are times when different ways of doing things are a matter or largely a matter of preference.  If someone wants to type the name or part of the name of a program into the start menu search field instead of using short cut keys or moving to the desktop and pressing enter on an icon to open a program, that is more or less a matter of preference.  I can point out the most efficient way to open programs but if someone wants to use another way, even if its slower, that is his preference.  That is not the case here.  We are talking about specific commands with different intended purposes and different functions. 
 
K is intended and is described as a move by links command.  If you are on a site you have visited before and you only want to move to unvisited links, then u is the proper command to use.  If you use u indiscriminately in place of k, you may use it on a site you have visited before and don't remember you have.  You may miss links.  Again, and maybe if I phrase it differently, you will not take offense.  I strongly believe that it is good practice to use commands for their intended purposes.  All the various ways I mentioned in my preference example are commands used for their intended purposes.  Windows has perhaps four or five different ways of opening programs but they are all intended for that purpose. You are advocating using a command with a different purpose because, if you use it in a certain context, it will work in the same way.  that leaves someone doing that opened to using it in error in an unintended context with unintended results. 
 
I would think that a bit of common sense would tell you when I am expressing something I believe strongly and that I don't think should be qualified and when I am being dictatorial.  I didn't say, do this.  I said it is good practice and I explained why.  I also stated my position so that anyone else following the thread will know what I think.  I don't just discuss points and argue my position for the one person I am conversing with directly at the time.  There are over one-thousand members of this list.  I am writing for anyone interested. 
Your reply is almost insulting in this passage:
You are accusing me of having poorly supported or erroneous opinions based on incorrect thought or incorrect facts.  Neither is true and you don't have to be insulting.  You are not the only one who can be angered or offended.  But I control it and don't make things personal.  I would appreciate a little more temperate responses when you disagree and that you consider that what may seem to you like being arbitrary and dictatorial may not be when given a little thought and viewed in the context of discussing matters on the list for the list.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 01:11 PM, Gene wrote:
it's just better in general to use intended commands for their intended purpose and not start using various commands for purposes they weren't intended for. 
Gene,

             Believe it or not your way is not, and never will be, the one, true way.

              I do not, ever, need to be lectured by you about "the intent" of a given command, as I know what they can be appropriately used for, which is very often at distinct variance with your opinion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Mallard
 

Hello list,


Sorry all. I mistyped the url. The correct one is


www.perfect-english-grammar.com


Whoever is interested in improving their English can find a wonderful resource there, even just in the free section of the site.

I use it a lot with the students I teach as a volunteer.


Ciao, sorry again,

Ollie

Il 27/12/2018 20:03, Mallard ha scritto:
I'm pleased to report that Seonaid Beckwith, creator and owner of the


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


website, following my email, has solved the unlabelled links issue in the paid section of her site.


Her site is great for learning English, and she's very sensitive to accessibility, which makes it worth following.


Ciao,

Ollie




Il 27/12/2018 19:54, Mallard ha scritto:
Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge, Firefox (several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For example, in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you can share stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within the list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like that, I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the site.






Mallard
 

Gene,


I've already corrected my message.


You may not be dictatorial (which I don't think you are), but sometimes you do come through as a very intolerant and rough person to say the least.


Luckily, I've been around this group long enough to appreciate your value as a person always ready to share knowledge and help.


We might need to check urls character by character, but I think you should check the tone of your messages sometimes, before you send them out...


With great respect and appreciation.

Ollie

Il 27/12/2018 21:42, Gene ha scritto:
Will people please check addresses character by character before sending a message if they write or dictate them and not paste them from the address bar.  I see errors in addresses far to often on the lists I follow when people type them.  This link is not correct.  A dash was used before the com.  The address is:
www.perfect-english-grammar.com <http://www.perfect-english-grammar.com>
I understand that we live in an era where people write however they wish.  But when writing something where precision matters, a path statement, a web site address, a mathematical formula, the time of an event, it is necessary to check what is written.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Mallard <mailto:mallard@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, December 27, 2018 1:03 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

I'm pleased to report that Seonaid Beckwith, creator and owner of the


www.perfect-english-grammar-com <http://www.perfect-english-grammar-com>


website, following my email, has solved the unlabelled links issue in
the paid section of her site.


Her site is great for learning English, and she's very sensitive to
accessibility, which makes it worth following.


Ciao,

Ollie




Il 27/12/2018 19:54, Mallard ha scritto:
Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge,
Firefox (several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For
example, in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you
can share stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com <http://www.perfect-english-grammar-com>


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within
the list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like
that, I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but
there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the
site.






Gene
 

Thank you for discussing the matter in a civil and civilized manner and for the compliments. 
 
If you send me an example of how you think the message would be better written, I'll consider it.  I don't know if this matters in considering the question, but I was writing to you but also to anyone following the thread.  Perhaps I'll send the message as a moderator comment so that more people will see it.  but I wanted to emphasize it.  It isn't just a matter of inconvenience, but these days, criminals purchase domains with slight spelling errors that someone might make when typing popular addresses.  If someone makes such an error, they may be taken to a malicious site that may try to infect the machine or try to convince the person to give personal information on the site, maybe by presenting a login page that looks like the real one.  But I consider this question of some importance.
 
Gene
----- original Messsage -----

From: Mallard
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

Gene,


I've already corrected my message.


You may not be dictatorial (which I don't think you are), but sometimes
you do come through as a very intolerant and rough person to say the least.


Luckily, I've been around this group long enough to appreciate your
value as a person always ready to share knowledge and help.


We might need to check urls character by character, but I think you
should check the tone of your messages sometimes, before you send them
out...


With great respect and appreciation.

Ollie




Il 27/12/2018 21:42, Gene ha scritto:
> Will people please check addresses character by character before
> sending a message if they write or dictate them and not paste them
> from the address bar.  I see errors in addresses far to often on the
> lists I follow when people type them.  This link is not correct.  A
> dash was used before the com.  The address is:
> www.perfect-english-grammar.com <http://www.perfect-english-grammar.com>
> I understand that we live in an era where people write however they
> wish.  But when writing something where precision matters, a path
> statement, a web site address, a mathematical formula, the time of an
> event, it is necessary to check what is written.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Mallard <mailto:mallard@...>
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 27, 2018 1:03 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest
> version of NVDA and Firefox
>
> I'm pleased to report that Seonaid Beckwith, creator and owner of the
>
>
> www.perfect-english-grammar-com <http://www.perfect-english-grammar-com>
>
>
> website, following my email, has solved the unlabelled links issue in
> the paid section of her site.
>
>
> Her site is great for learning English, and she's very sensitive to
> accessibility, which makes it worth following.
>
>
> Ciao,
>
> Ollie
>
>
>
>
> Il 27/12/2018 19:54, Mallard ha scritto:
> > Hello Gne,
> >
> >
> > Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge,
> > Firefox (several versions), Different computers.
> >
> > Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.
> >
> >
> > I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and password.
> >
> >
> > However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For
> > example, in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you
> > can share stuff on.
> >
> >
> > On another occasion, in
> >
> >
> > www.perfect-english-grammar-com <http://www.perfect-english-grammar-com>
> >
> >
> > under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within
> > the list of courses.
> >
> >
> > If I come across some site that has free access to something like
> > that, I'll post it.
> >
> >
> >
> > By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but
> > there was nothing to be read.
> >
> >
> > Ciao,
> >
> > Ollie
> >
> > ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the
> > site.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>



Gene
 

I want to emphasize this point so it doesn't get lost or buried.  If I were corresponding with you in an off list discussion, I would have worded my initial response differently.  I might have said something like I don't think its good practice, etc.  On list, I worded it more strongly because other people are likely following the thread and I wanted to make my point strongly because I believe it strongly.  Off list is an entirely different context.

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

I forgot to paste In  the section that is almost a personal attack.  Here it is:
              I do not, ever, need to be lectured by you about "the intent" of a given command, as I know what they can be appropriately used for, which is very often at distinct variance with your opinion.
In this diatribe, you are stating that I am often mistaken in my knowledge of such commands and their intended use.  That is very close to, maybe it even is, a personal attack as stated and it is not factually correct.  I am very careful to learn proper commands and their uses. 
 
And we aren't talking about opinions.  it is factuallly correct that if you use an incorrect command that works in some contexts and not others, you leave yourself opened to unexpected results. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

I'm sorry if you consider my comments a lecture and dictatorial.  You may disagree with me and that's fine.  but what you interpret as dictatorial is simply a firm statement of what I strongly believe is good practice.  I'm sorry if it sounds to you like being dictatorial.  It isn't. 
 
There are times when different ways of doing things are a matter or largely a matter of preference.  If someone wants to type the name or part of the name of a program into the start menu search field instead of using short cut keys or moving to the desktop and pressing enter on an icon to open a program, that is more or less a matter of preference.  I can point out the most efficient way to open programs but if someone wants to use another way, even if its slower, that is his preference.  That is not the case here.  We are talking about specific commands with different intended purposes and different functions. 
 
K is intended and is described as a move by links command.  If you are on a site you have visited before and you only want to move to unvisited links, then u is the proper command to use.  If you use u indiscriminately in place of k, you may use it on a site you have visited before and don't remember you have.  You may miss links.  Again, and maybe if I phrase it differently, you will not take offense.  I strongly believe that it is good practice to use commands for their intended purposes.  All the various ways I mentioned in my preference example are commands used for their intended purposes.  Windows has perhaps four or five different ways of opening programs but they are all intended for that purpose. You are advocating using a command with a different purpose because, if you use it in a certain context, it will work in the same way.  that leaves someone doing that opened to using it in error in an unintended context with unintended results. 
 
I would think that a bit of common sense would tell you when I am expressing something I believe strongly and that I don't think should be qualified and when I am being dictatorial.  I didn't say, do this.  I said it is good practice and I explained why.  I also stated my position so that anyone else following the thread will know what I think.  I don't just discuss points and argue my position for the one person I am conversing with directly at the time.  There are over one-thousand members of this list.  I am writing for anyone interested. 
Your reply is almost insulting in this passage:
You are accusing me of having poorly supported or erroneous opinions based on incorrect thought or incorrect facts.  Neither is true and you don't have to be insulting.  You are not the only one who can be angered or offended.  But I control it and don't make things personal.  I would appreciate a little more temperate responses when you disagree and that you consider that what may seem to you like being arbitrary and dictatorial may not be when given a little thought and viewed in the context of discussing matters on the list for the list.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 01:11 PM, Gene wrote:
it's just better in general to use intended commands for their intended purpose and not start using various commands for purposes they weren't intended for. 
Gene,

             Believe it or not your way is not, and never will be, the one, true way.

              I do not, ever, need to be lectured by you about "the intent" of a given command, as I know what they can be appropriately used for, which is very often at distinct variance with your opinion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


 

Gene,

           You have been given feedback, multiple times on multiple topics by multiple people, about how you come across and you do not take any of that into account. Saying something like, "I'm sorry if it sounds to you like being dictatorial.  It isn't," is simply not borne out by your own history.

           As I said earlier, your opinion, contrary to your own opinion, is not the only opinion nor the right opinion in all cases.  People have different, and perfectly legitimate, ways of accomplishing the same tasks.

           I really do not need to be told by you how to use a generic link command, versus unvisited link command, versus visited link command.  I know and understand all three very well.  I also understand exactly what their intended purposes, note the plural, are and some of those do not comport with your personal opinion about what they are intended for.

           With this I'm done discussing this with you on this topic.  I'm sick of having unnecessary pissing matches with you.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Mallard
 

Great! This is a very well-worded and thorough post.

Thanks for your expanded explanation. I appreciate how seriously you take matters, Gene. I mean it.


It's not a matter of what you say most of the time. I understand that you need to be brief, so things may come through harsher than you mean.


Sorry for pointing it out publicly. I should have written to you off-list.


Ciao,

Ollie

Il 27/12/2018 23:46, Gene ha scritto:
Thank you for discussing the matter in a civil and civilized manner and for the compliments.
If you send me an example of how you think the message would be better written, I'll consider it.  I don't know if this matters in considering the question, but I was writing to you but also to anyone following the thread.  Perhaps I'll send the message as a moderator comment so that more people will see it. but I wanted to emphasize it.  It isn't just a matter of inconvenience, but these days, criminals purchase domains with slight spelling errors that someone might make when typing popular addresses.  If someone makes such an error, they may be taken to a malicious site that may try to infect the machine or try to convince the person to give personal information on the site, maybe by presenting a login page that looks like the real one.  But I consider this question of some importance.
Gene
----- original Messsage -----
*From:* Mallard <mailto:mallard@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, December 27, 2018 4:25 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

Gene,


I've already corrected my message.


You may not be dictatorial (which I don't think you are), but sometimes
you do come through as a very intolerant and rough person to say the least.


Luckily, I've been around this group long enough to appreciate your
value as a person always ready to share knowledge and help.


We might need to check urls character by character, but I think you
should check the tone of your messages sometimes, before you send them
out...


With great respect and appreciation.

Ollie




Il 27/12/2018 21:42, Gene ha scritto:
Will people please check addresses character by character before
sending a message if they write or dictate them and not paste them
from the address bar.  I see errors in addresses far to often on the
lists I follow when people type them.  This link is not correct.  A
dash was used before the com.  The address is:
www.perfect-english-grammar.com
<http://www.perfect-english-grammar.com> <http://www.perfect-english-grammar.com>
I understand that we live in an era where people write however they
wish.  But when writing something where precision matters, a path
statement, a web site address, a mathematical formula, the time of an
event, it is necessary to check what is written.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Mallard <mailto:mallard@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, December 27, 2018 1:03 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest
version of NVDA and Firefox

I'm pleased to report that Seonaid Beckwith, creator and owner of the


www.perfect-english-grammar-com
<http://www.perfect-english-grammar-com> <http://www.perfect-english-grammar-com>


website, following my email, has solved the unlabelled links issue in
the paid section of her site.


Her site is great for learning English, and she's very sensitive to
accessibility, which makes it worth following.


Ciao,

Ollie




Il 27/12/2018 19:54, Mallard ha scritto:
Hello Gne,


Answers to all your questions is Yes. Different browsers (Edge,
Firefox (several versions), Different computers.

Windows 10, Version 1803, but it started in 1703.


I wanted to send you pages, but they all require username and
password.


However, I've noticed that most of the time they are lists. For
example, in various sites the issue concerns lists of social media you
can share stuff on.


On another occasion, in


www.perfect-english-grammar-com
<http://www.perfect-english-grammar-com> <http://www.perfect-english-grammar-com>


under the paid section called PEG Plus, you have this problem within
the list of courses.


If I come across some site that has free access to something like
that, I'll post it.



By the way, I also tried to read the link name with Windows10 OCR, but
there was nothing to be read.


Ciao,

Ollie

ps: In the case of PEG Plus, I reported the issue to the owner of the
site.







Gene
 

And who always starts them and is constantly angry and rude in response to my rejoinders? 
 
If this is your last word on this topic, fine.  that's your decision.  You have not given good, well supported opinions demonstrating that what I've said about using the intended commands for their intended purposes is wrong.  If you wish to do so, fine.  If you wish to say that that's what you want to do in your own use, fine.  Do whatever you want in your own use.  If, however,  you are saying, as it appears you may be, that you would advocate that others follow this practice, then I disagree with you vehemently and I will say that on list.
 
Gene
----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more and more unlabeled links with latest version of NVDA and Firefox

Gene,

           You have been given feedback, multiple times on multiple topics by multiple people, about how you come across and you do not take any of that into account. Saying something like, "I'm sorry if it sounds to you like being dictatorial.  It isn't," is simply not borne out by your own history.

           As I said earlier, your opinion, contrary to your own opinion, is not the only opinion nor the right opinion in all cases.  People have different, and perfectly legitimate, ways of accomplishing the same tasks.

           I really do not need to be told by you how to use a generic link command, versus unvisited link command, versus visited link command.  I know and understand all three very well.  I also understand exactly what their intended purposes, note the plural, are and some of those do not comport with your personal opinion about what they are intended for.

           With this I'm done discussing this with you on this topic.  I'm sick of having unnecessary pissing matches with you.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back