Hi List,

 

Lately I have come across online pages where I am supposed to let the mouse hover  on a link or message for “moreoptions”.

Can I do the equivilant   of a mouse hover  with nvda and not tare my hair out?

 

Thanks,

 

Mont

I often find that on web pages, using NVDA, the mouse can't be moved to your current position.  I don't know if other screen-readers allow that.  But even if you could, it would be very cumbersome to use such a way of working in NVDA. 

In JAWS, when you are on such a link, you hear mouse over announced. There is a JAWS command to do the equivalent of hovering the mouse over the link.  You are told something like, page changes at line 11.  You can then use a jump to line command to jump to that line and see what has changed.  You can, as I recall, use a return to your previous position command when you want to go back to where you were.

With NVDA, you would have to hover the mouse, and with no feed back about where the page changed, look through the page to see if you could find where the new material is. 

I almost never miss information I want by not using this feature.  I can't say I don't miss any information but I have never missed the ability.  And in JAWS, I often find that mouse over links add nothing useful, maybe changing the page visually in some way in some place.

Others who use the Internet in different ways may have different opinions but I suspect that this is one of the most unneeded possible features and I suspect that that is why JAWS is the only screen-reader to have it.

Gene

Hi List,

 

Lately I have come across online pages where I am supposed to let the mouse hover  on a link or message for “moreoptions”.

Can I do the equivilant   of a mouse hover  with nvda and not tare my hair out?

 

Thanks,

 

Mont

Hi Jean,

 

In certain applications like Quickbooks, the Mouse Over thing expands a menu, so you have to use it.

 

NVDA isn’t good at coping with Mouse Overs, JAWS takes you directly to it, with Control Insert Enter, but you may be able to achieve the same with NVDA Key and Enter.

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 02 May 2022 00:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] mouse hover

 

I often find that on web pages, using NVDA, the mouse can't be moved to your current position.  I don't know if other screen-readers allow that.  But even if you could, it would be very cumbersome to use such a way of working in NVDA. 

In JAWS, when you are on such a link, you hear mouse over announced. There is a JAWS command to do the equivalent of hovering the mouse over the link.  You are told something like, page changes at line 11.  You can then use a jump to line command to jump to that line and see what has changed.  You can, as I recall, use a return to your previous position command when you want to go back to where you were.

With NVDA, you would have to hover the mouse, and with no feed back about where the page changed, look through the page to see if you could find where the new material is. 

I almost never miss information I want by not using this feature.  I can't say I don't miss any information but I have never missed the ability.  And in JAWS, I often find that mouse over links add nothing useful, maybe changing the page visually in some way in some place.

Others who use the Internet in different ways may have different opinions but I suspect that this is one of the most unneeded possible features and I suspect that that is why JAWS is the only screen-reader to have it.

Gene

On 5/1/2022 5:40 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Hi List,

 

Lately I have come across online pages where I am supposed to let the mouse hover  on a link or message for “moreoptions”.

Can I do the equivilant   of a mouse hover  with nvda and not tare my hair out?

 

Thanks,

 

Mont

 

NVDA key enter isn't described in input help.  All NVDA says is NVDA enter.  What does it do that just enter doesn't?

Gene

Hi Jean,

 

In certain applications like Quickbooks, the Mouse Over thing expands a menu, so you have to use it.

 

NVDA isn’t good at coping with Mouse Overs, JAWS takes you directly to it, with Control Insert Enter, but you may be able to achieve the same with NVDA Key and Enter.

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 02 May 2022 00:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] mouse hover

 

I often find that on web pages, using NVDA, the mouse can't be moved to your current position.  I don't know if other screen-readers allow that.  But even if you could, it would be very cumbersome to use such a way of working in NVDA. 

In JAWS, when you are on such a link, you hear mouse over announced. There is a JAWS command to do the equivalent of hovering the mouse over the link.  You are told something like, page changes at line 11.  You can then use a jump to line command to jump to that line and see what has changed.  You can, as I recall, use a return to your previous position command when you want to go back to where you were.

With NVDA, you would have to hover the mouse, and with no feed back about where the page changed, look through the page to see if you could find where the new material is. 

I almost never miss information I want by not using this feature.  I can't say I don't miss any information but I have never missed the ability.  And in JAWS, I often find that mouse over links add nothing useful, maybe changing the page visually in some way in some place.

Others who use the Internet in different ways may have different opinions but I suspect that this is one of the most unneeded possible features and I suspect that that is why JAWS is the only screen-reader to have it.

Gene

On 5/1/2022 5:40 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Hi List,

 

Lately I have come across online pages where I am supposed to let the mouse hover  on a link or message for “moreoptions”.

Can I do the equivilant   of a mouse hover  with nvda and not tare my hair out?

 

Thanks,

 

Mont

 

NVDA+Enter is supposed to act on the object at the NVDA's current focus location.
Perhaps a description like "act on the current object in focus."
Jason Bratcher

A slight O.T. on this one:
Windows used to be able to let you choose whether you'd double-click or single-click to activate things
(found formerly in Folder Options, say, WinXP and earlier).
With single-click active, you'd hover/point to select things and single-click to tap on it.
I don't know how well NVDA would handle the Click to Open, Point to select option,
considering NVDA at that time didn't read the pop-up bubble of information that appeared as a tool tip.
NVDA getting newer along with Windows obviously changed things.
And before getting cooked like the egg in the Say No to Drugs ad in 1987,
I've mostly been able to force the mouse to the object navigator
(NVDA?NumPadSlash)
and click a link that way (that becomes the modern mouse over).
As per hovering over it, it's up to the software to decide what happens when a link/other control is pointed at.
Jason Bratcher

That isn't working with mouse over.  You don't click a link with the
mouse.  If you do click the link, you follow the link.  If you can do a
mouse over with NVDA, that would be done by moving the mouse over the
link and leaving it there.  Then you would move around the screen and
see where the new information is, if any.

Gene

On 5/4/2022 12:03 AM, Jason Bratcher wrote:

A slight O.T. on this one:
Windows used to be able to let you choose whether you'd double-click
or single-click to activate things
(found formerly in Folder Options, say, WinXP and earlier).
With single-click active, you'd hover/point to select things and
single-click to tap on it.
I don't know how well NVDA would handle the Click to Open, Point to
select option,
considering NVDA at that time didn't read the pop-up bubble of
information that appeared as a tool tip.
NVDA getting newer along with Windows obviously changed things.
And before getting cooked like the egg in the Say No to Drugs ad in 1987,
I've mostly been able to force the mouse to the object navigator
(NVDA?NumPadSlash)
and click a link that way (that becomes the modern mouse over).
As per hovering over it, it's up to the software to decide what
happens when a link/other control is pointed at.
Jason Bratcher

have you tried nvda + numpad devide and nvda + num pad multiply? you
may try document review mode using nvda + num pad 1 and 7, then
navigate with num pad 7 and 9. many times i found new options after
performing these actions and these option can be activated with enter
or nvda + num pad enter key and i am using nvda desktop  mode.

On 04/05/2022, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't working with mouse over.  You don't click a link with the
mouse.  If you do click the link, you follow the link.  If you can do a
mouse over with NVDA, that would be done by moving the mouse over the
link and leaving it there.  Then you would move around the screen and
see where the new information is, if any.

Gene

On 5/4/2022 12:03 AM, Jason Bratcher wrote:

A slight O.T. on this one:
Windows used to be able to let you choose whether you'd double-click
or single-click to activate things
(found formerly in Folder Options, say, WinXP and earlier).
With single-click active, you'd hover/point to select things and
single-click to tap on it.
I don't know how well NVDA would handle the Click to Open, Point to
select option,
considering NVDA at that time didn't read the pop-up bubble of
information that appeared as a tool tip.
NVDA getting newer along with Windows obviously changed things.
And before getting cooked like the egg in the Say No to Drugs ad in 1987,
I've mostly been able to force the mouse to the object navigator
(NVDA?NumPadSlash)
and click a link that way (that becomes the modern mouse over).
As per hovering over it, it's up to the software to decide what
happens when a link/other control is pointed at.
Jason Bratcher

NVDA +divide moves the mouse to the current position if NVDA can do so.  That is evidently the same as hovering the mouse.  Imagine however, how inefficient it would be to move a mouse over a link on a web page and then review the entire page, hoping you will recognize where the page changes as a result of hovering the mouse.  You may be able to do so but its so inefficient that it would only make sense to do so if it is necessary to get some information or do something.  I almost never find that mouse over links do anything necessary when you hover the mouse.  Also, it appears they often do something visual which a screen-reader isn't aware of. 

My guess is that if mouse over links did anything other than be marginally useful, that is, show necessary information more than very rarely, NVDA would have incorporated a mouse over function.  JAWS has one, Window-eyes didn't.  I think if it were considered at all important, more than just one screen[-reader would have it.

Gene

On 5/8/2022 12:33 AM, harshad solanki wrote:

have you tried nvda + numpad devide and nvda + num pad multiply? you
may try document review mode using nvda + num pad 1 and 7, then
navigate with num pad 7 and 9. many times i found new options after
performing these actions and these option can be activated with enter
or nvda + num pad enter key and i am using nvda desktop  mode.

On 04/05/2022, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't working with mouse over.  You don't click a link with the
mouse.  If you do click the link, you follow the link.  If you can do a
mouse over with NVDA, that would be done by moving the mouse over the
link and leaving it there.  Then you would move around the screen and
see where the new information is, if any.

Gene

On 5/4/2022 12:03 AM, Jason Bratcher wrote:

A slight O.T. on this one:
Windows used to be able to let you choose whether you'd double-click
or single-click to activate things
(found formerly in Folder Options, say, WinXP and earlier).
With single-click active, you'd hover/point to select things and
single-click to tap on it.
I don't know how well NVDA would handle the Click to Open, Point to
select option,
considering NVDA at that time didn't read the pop-up bubble of
information that appeared as a tool tip.
NVDA getting newer along with Windows obviously changed things.
And before getting cooked like the egg in the Say No to Drugs ad in 1987,
I've mostly been able to force the mouse to the object navigator
(NVDA?NumPadSlash)
and click a link that way (that becomes the modern mouse over).
As per hovering over it, it's up to the software to decide what
happens when a link/other control is pointed at.
Jason Bratcher

Gene wrote:

My guess is that if mouse over links did anything other than be marginally useful, that is, show necessary information more than very rarely, NVDA would
have incorporated a mouse over function.  JAWS has one, Window-eyes didn't.  I think if it were considered at all important, more than just one
screen[-reader would have it.

Gene, I must disagree with you.

I have been in several situations where a website's functions were completely unusable without mouseover capability, or some way to simulate it. I present, again, GetResponse as one example.

Now, that bad design is not NVDA's fault, but I think that the real reason here is that it is simply very difficult to do given the way NVDA presents information.

Apparently, in Jaws, it is not unusual to hear that new options have appeared on line such-and-such of the virtual buffer. But users jumping to specific lines, is not an NVDA paradigm.

So the question becomes: if new options do appear, how should NVDA get you to them, or tell you about them?

I suspect if there was a reasonable answer to that, more progress might be made on mouseover support.

Luke

That isn't working with mouse over. You don't click a link with the
mouse. If you do click the link, you follow the link. If you can do
a mouse over with NVDA, that would be done by moving the mouse over
the link and leaving it there. Then you would move around the screen
and see where the new information is, if any.

Gene

On 5/4/2022 12:03 AM, Jason Bratcher wrote:

A slight O.T. on this one:
Windows used to be able to let you choose whether you'd double-click
or single-click to activate things (found formerly in Folder Options,
say, WinXP and earlier).
With single-click active, you'd hover/point to select things and
single-click to tap on it.
I don't know how well NVDA would handle the Click to Open, Point to
select option, considering NVDA at that time didn't read the pop-up
bubble of information that appeared as a tool tip.
NVDA getting newer along with Windows obviously changed things.
And before getting cooked like the egg in the Say No to Drugs ad in
1987, I've mostly been able to force the mouse to the object
navigator
(NVDA?NumPadSlash)
and click a link that way (that becomes the modern mouse over).
As per hovering over it, it's up to the software to decide what
happens when a link/other control is pointed at.
Jason Bratcher

My guess is that if mouse over links did anything other than be
marginally useful, that is, show necessary information more than very
rarely, NVDA would have incorporated a mouse over function. JAWS has one, Window-eyes didn't. I think if it were considered at all important, more than just one screen[-reader would have it.

Yep. That can work as well. http://qrz.com is the best place for that. Click your name then scan down in document review and you see options for editing your profile, bio and picture, which I need to do btw. OH fun.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of harshad solanki
Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2022 10:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] mouse hover

have you tried nvda + numpad devide and nvda + num pad multiply? you may try document review mode using nvda + num pad 1 and 7, then navigate with num pad 7 and 9. many times i found new options after performing these actions and these option can be activated with enter or nvda + num pad enter key and i am using nvda desktop  mode.

On 04/05/2022, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't working with mouse over.  You don't click a link with the 
mouse.  If you do click the link, you follow the link.  If you can do 
a mouse over with NVDA, that would be done by moving the mouse over 
the link and leaving it there.  Then you would move around the screen 
and see where the new information is, if any.

Gene

On 5/4/2022 12:03 AM, Jason Bratcher wrote:

A slight O.T. on this one:
Windows used to be able to let you choose whether you'd double-click 
or single-click to activate things (found formerly in Folder Options, 
say, WinXP and earlier).
With single-click active, you'd hover/point to select things and 
single-click to tap on it.
I don't know how well NVDA would handle the Click to Open, Point to 
select option, considering NVDA at that time didn't read the pop-up 
bubble of information that appeared as a tool tip.
NVDA getting newer along with Windows obviously changed things.
And before getting cooked like the egg in the Say No to Drugs ad in 
1987, I've mostly been able to force the mouse to the object 
navigator
(NVDA?NumPadSlash)
and click a link that way (that becomes the modern mouse over).
As per hovering over it, it's up to the software to decide what 
happens when a link/other control is pointed at.
Jason Bratcher

You shouldn't have to use document review in NVDA.  If you hover the mouse, that is move it to the desired location, the page changes.  The mouse doesn't move when you move in browse mode.  While I haven't tried this, you should be able to move in the page as you always do and see what is being displayed.

Gene

Yep. That can work as well. http://qrz.com is the best place for that. Click your name then scan down in document review and you see options for editing your profile, bio and picture, which I need to do btw. OH fun.

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of harshad solanki

Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2022 10:33 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] mouse hover

have you tried nvda + numpad devide and nvda + num pad multiply? you may try document review mode using nvda + num pad 1 and 7, then navigate with num pad 7 and 9. many times i found new options after performing these actions and these option can be activated with enter or nvda + num pad enter key and i am using nvda desktop  mode.

On 04/05/2022, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't working with mouse over.  You don't click a link with the 

mouse.  If you do click the link, you follow the link.  If you can do 

a mouse over with NVDA, that would be done by moving the mouse over 

the link and leaving it there.  Then you would move around the screen 

and see where the new information is, if any.

Gene

On 5/4/2022 12:03 AM, Jason Bratcher wrote:

A slight O.T. on this one:

Windows used to be able to let you choose whether you'd double-click 

or single-click to activate things (found formerly in Folder Options, 

say, WinXP and earlier).

With single-click active, you'd hover/point to select things and 

single-click to tap on it.

I don't know how well NVDA would handle the Click to Open, Point to 

select option, considering NVDA at that time didn't read the pop-up 

bubble of information that appeared as a tool tip.

NVDA getting newer along with Windows obviously changed things.

And before getting cooked like the egg in the Say No to Drugs ad in 

1987, I've mostly been able to force the mouse to the object 

navigator

(NVDA?NumPadSlash)

and click a link that way (that becomes the modern mouse over).

As per hovering over it, it's up to the software to decide what 

happens when a link/other control is pointed at.

Jason Bratcher

My guess is that if mouse over links did anything other than be
marginally useful, that is, show necessary information more than very
rarely, NVDA would have incorporated a mouse over function. JAWS has one, Window-eyes didn't. I think if it were considered at all important, more than just one screen[-reader would have it.

Hi,

I also disagree with Jean on this one, Quickbooks makes some use of Mouse Overs, and JAWS works well with it.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: 08 May 2022 07:27
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] mouse hover

Gene wrote:

My guess is that if mouse over links did anything other than be 
marginally useful, that is, show necessary information more than very 
rarely, NVDA would have incorporated a mouse over function.  JAWS has one, Window-eyes didn't.  I think if it were considered at all important, more than just one screen[-reader would have it.

Gene, I must disagree with you.

I have been in several situations where a website's functions were completely unusable without mouseover capability, or some way to simulate it. I present, again, GetResponse as one example.

Now, that bad design is not NVDA's fault, but I think that the real reason here is that it is simply very difficult to do given the way NVDA presents information.

Apparently, in Jaws, it is not unusual to hear that new options have appeared on line such-and-such of the virtual buffer. But users jumping to specific lines, is not an NVDA paradigm.

So the question becomes: if new options do appear, how should NVDA get you to them, or tell you about them?

I suspect if there was a reasonable answer to that, more progress might be made on mouseover support.

Luke