Topics

Navigating A Web Page


Hicks Steven (CORNWALL IT SERVICES) <steven.hicks@...>
 

Hi friends,

 

I am going to a radio station web page where there is a play button.

I Can tak to the button but if I press the space bar or return, it doesn’t seem to activate the play button.

If I load Narator or JAWS in demo mode and tab to the same play button and press the space bar or return, it activates the button fine.

Does anyone know what could be happening here please?

 



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Luke Davis
 

Would you care to provide an example page where this happens, and steps to find the exact play button you're using?

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, Hicks Steven (CORNWALL IT SERVICES) via groups.io wrote:

I am going to a radio station web page where there is a play button.
I Can tak to the button but if I press the space bar or return, it doesn’t seem to activate the play button.
If I load Narator or JAWS in demo mode and tab to the same play button and press the space bar or return, it activates the button fine.
Does anyone know what could be happening here please?


Hicks Steven (CORNWALL IT SERVICES) <steven.hicks@...>
 

Sure:

https://www.globalplayer.com/live/smoothcountry/uk/

Hopefully you will be able to access this outside the u.k.

If you load the page and when loaded, just keep pressing the tab key, you will find a play button there.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: 22 January 2021 21:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

Would you care to provide an example page where this happens, and steps to find the exact play button you're using?



On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, Hicks Steven (CORNWALL IT SERVICES) via groups.io wrote:

I am going to a radio station web page where there is a play button.
I Can tak to the button but if I press the space bar or return, it doesn’t seem to activate the play button.
If I load Narator or JAWS in demo mode and tab to the same play button and press the space bar or return, it activates the button fine.
Does anyone know what could be happening here please?







This message originated from outside of NHSmail. Please do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.



********************************************************************************************************************

This message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the
sender that you have received the message in error before deleting it.
Please do not disclose, copy or distribute information in this e-mail or take any action in relation to its contents. To do so is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Thank you for your co-operation.

NHSmail is the secure email and directory service available for all NHS staff in England and Scotland. NHSmail is approved for exchanging patient data and other sensitive information with NHSmail and other accredited email services.

For more information and to find out how you can switch, https://portal.nhs.net/help/joiningnhsmail


Sascha Cowley
 

I was able to get the button to activate just fine by pressing space or enter on it in browse mode.

It did not work at first because there was a modal covering it. If you jump to the top of the page, there is a dialog prompting you to create an account or login. Either do that, or close the dialog and the play button should work.


Gene
 

I haven't tried the site yet but here are ways to work around the problem. Try the default action function in NVDA, NVDA key numpad enter enter on the numpad if you are using the desktop layout. I don't know the laptop layout command. If that doesn't work, or before trying this, I usually do the following first, be on the button, be in browse mode, route the mouse to the button and left click.

If neither of these options work, be on the button, turn off browse mode, and press the space bar.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Hicks Steven (CORNWALL IT SERVICES) via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 3:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

Sure:

https://www.globalplayer.com/live/smoothcountry/uk/

Hopefully you will be able to access this outside the u.k.

If you load the page and when loaded, just keep pressing the tab key, you will find a play button there.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: 22 January 2021 21:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

Would you care to provide an example page where this happens, and steps to find the exact play button you're using?



On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, Hicks Steven (CORNWALL IT SERVICES) via groups.io wrote:

I am going to a radio station web page where there is a play button.
I Can tak to the button but if I press the space bar or return, it doesn’t seem to activate the play button.
If I load Narator or JAWS in demo mode and tab to the same play button and press the space bar or return, it activates the button fine.
Does anyone know what could be happening here please?







This message originated from outside of NHSmail. Please do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.



********************************************************************************************************************

This message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the
sender that you have received the message in error before deleting it.
Please do not disclose, copy or distribute information in this e-mail or take any action in relation to its contents. To do so is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Thank you for your co-operation.

NHSmail is the secure email and directory service available for all NHS staff in England and Scotland. NHSmail is approved for exchanging patient data and other sensitive information with NHSmail and other accredited email services.

For more information and to find out how you can switch, https://portal.nhs.net/help/joiningnhsmail


Gene
 

The message another member sent about closing the dialog works. I tried the work arounds I discussed and none of them do. I don't know how different browsers and screen-readers describe the structure that you need to close. When I use the Brave browser and NVDA, I see no structure indicated, just a part of the screen for signing in. I activated the maybe later button and I was then able to play the stream.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Hicks Steven (CORNWALL IT SERVICES) via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 3:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

Sure:

https://www.globalplayer.com/live/smoothcountry/uk/

Hopefully you will be able to access this outside the u.k.

If you load the page and when loaded, just keep pressing the tab key, you will find a play button there.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: 22 January 2021 21:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

Would you care to provide an example page where this happens, and steps to find the exact play button you're using?



On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, Hicks Steven (CORNWALL IT SERVICES) via groups.io wrote:

I am going to a radio station web page where there is a play button.
I Can tak to the button but if I press the space bar or return, it doesn’t seem to activate the play button.
If I load Narator or JAWS in demo mode and tab to the same play button and press the space bar or return, it activates the button fine.
Does anyone know what could be happening here please?







This message originated from outside of NHSmail. Please do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.



********************************************************************************************************************

This message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the
sender that you have received the message in error before deleting it.
Please do not disclose, copy or distribute information in this e-mail or take any action in relation to its contents. To do so is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Thank you for your co-operation.

NHSmail is the secure email and directory service available for all NHS staff in England and Scotland. NHSmail is approved for exchanging patient data and other sensitive information with NHSmail and other accredited email services.

For more information and to find out how you can switch, https://portal.nhs.net/help/joiningnhsmail


 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 06:29 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know how different browsers and screen-readers describe the structure that you need to close.
-
Since this is an overlay screen, which essentially replaces and blocks the underlying screen, it's probably not described as a separate thing by most screen readers.

There is descriptive text followed by 3 buttons, the last of which, as you noted, is "Maybe Later," which closes that overlay screen.  These are essentially dialog boxes but with an appearance such that the underlying content is completely obscured, hence the term overlay.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Sascha Cowley
 

Technically that's just a modal dialog. Regardless, this is an accessibility problem with the page.

On 2021-01-23 10:46, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 06:29 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know how different browsers and screen-readers describe the structure that you need to close.
-
Since this is an overlay screen, which essentially replaces and blocks the underlying screen, it's probably not described as a separate thing by most screen readers.

There is descriptive text followed by 3 buttons, the last of which, as you noted, is "Maybe Later," which closes that overlay screen.  These are essentially dialog boxes but with an appearance such that the underlying content is completely obscured, hence the term overlay.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 06:55 PM, Sascha Cowley wrote:
Technically that's just a modal dialog. Regardless, this is an accessibility problem with the page.
-
I won't argue about what it's called technically, but I doubt you'll find many who use the term "modal dialog" unless they're web programmers.

I have no idea why you say it's an accessibility problem.  I just loaded that page with NVDA, and when the dialog appears NVDA begins reading it, and it's controls.  That's what I'd expect to occur when the overlay occurs, and it does.  The screen reader is doing for its user exactly what my eyes do for me.  Once the underlying page is obscured by that overlay/modal dialog focus shifts to it and you are forced to interact with it.  This is exactly what it does if you're sighted and interacting with the site using sight and point and click.  There are no surprises there.

Once I activate the Maybe Later button I'm right back on the page with the play smooth country button, which can be activated precisely as one would expect.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Gene
 

Evidently, a sighted user can infer that the play button won't work until the dialog is closed. Perhaps something is needed, such as text that is read by screen-readers but not seen by sighted users that is read when you move to the button. it might say something like you must sign up or press the maybe later button before you can play the stream.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Sascha Cowley via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 5:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page



Technically that's just a modal dialog. Regardless, this is an accessibility problem with the page.


On 2021-01-23 10:46, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 06:29 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know how different browsers and screen-readers describe the structure that you need to close.-
Since this is an overlay screen, which essentially replaces and blocks the underlying screen, it's probably not described as a separate thing by most screen readers.

There is descriptive text followed by 3 buttons, the last of which, as you noted, is "Maybe Later," which closes that overlay screen. These are essentially dialog boxes but with an appearance such that the underlying content is completely obscured, hence the term overlay.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Gene
 

Blind people don't know that they must interact with the dialog. Blind people are used to focus changing for one reason or another and have no way of knowing why it changed. I observed the change of focus but I attributed it to nothing more than just another part of the page loading. I've seen sites where part of a page loads, then a bit later, the rest loads and focus is changed.

Unless the page tells blind people that they must do something in the dialog before they can play the stream, it is not communicating to the blind user what is needed.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 6:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 06:55 PM, Sascha Cowley wrote:
Technically that's just a modal dialog. Regardless, this is an accessibility problem with the page.-
I won't argue about what it's called technically, but I doubt you'll find many who use the term "modal dialog" unless they're web programmers.

I have no idea why you say it's an accessibility problem. I just loaded that page with NVDA, and when the dialog appears NVDA begins reading it, and it's controls. That's what I'd expect to occur when the overlay occurs, and it does. The screen reader is doing for its user exactly what my eyes do for me. Once the underlying page is obscured by that overlay/modal dialog focus shifts to it and you are forced to interact with it. This is exactly what it does if you're sighted and interacting with the site using sight and point and click. There are no surprises there.

Once I activate the Maybe Later button I'm right back on the page with the play smooth country button, which can be activated precisely as one would expect.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 07:04 PM, Gene wrote:
Evidently, a sighted user can infer that the play button won't work until the dialog is closed.
-
And based on what I just did, so should a blind user.  If you suddenly don't have access to something, and it's been replaced by something else, the presumption that you must interact with that something else, first, should be automatic.

I do this by sight because I see it's overlayed the underlying page.  When I'm using a screen reader, and it pops up, focus of the screen reader shifts right to it and forces you to interact with it, which is no different than what I'm experiencing visually.

When you suddenly face a situation where focus has shifted, which was characteristic of dialog boxes of virtually any type, it's been pretty standard practice to review it and do what's appropriate to dismiss it to go back to whence it sprung.  How is this any different, other than it's occurring on a web page?  [That's a serious question, as this is not, in my experience, novel behavior.  It's been around for quite a while.]
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Gene
 

You are arguing by analogy between a sighted user and a blind user. It is an incorrect analogy, as I explain in my second message.

If I assumed I had to do something every time focus changes for some reason on various web pages, or that have to do something when focus is automatically placed somewhere, I'd make all sorts of errors in what I need to do on a page. Just because focus changes on a page doesn't mean generally, that something must be done.

When you use Google, the cursor is automatically taken to the edit field. That doesn't mean you must do something in that field before you can use the page. It means that that is the most likely place a person will want to be and it is done as a convenience feature.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 6:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 07:04 PM, Gene wrote:
Evidently, a sighted user can infer that the play button won't work until the dialog is closed.-
And based on what I just did, so should a blind user. If you suddenly don't have access to something, and it's been replaced by something else, the presumption that you must interact with that something else, first, should be automatic.

I do this by sight because I see it's overlayed the underlying page. When I'm using a screen reader, and it pops up, focus of the screen reader shifts right to it and forces you to interact with it, which is no different than what I'm experiencing visually.

When you suddenly face a situation where focus has shifted, which was characteristic of dialog boxes of virtually any type, it's been pretty standard practice to review it and do what's appropriate to dismiss it to go back to whence it sprung. How is this any different, other than it's occurring on a web page? [That's a serious question, as this is not, in my experience, novel behavior. It's been around for quite a while.]

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 07:13 PM, Gene wrote:
You are arguing by analogy between a sighted user and a blind user. It is an incorrect analogy, as I explain in my second message
-
Again, Gene, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

When focus shifts, and you have no access to what you "should," the first thing to suspect is a modal dialog (to use the correct term) has popped open and overlaid your page.

I have often said that there are sometimes no substitutes for sight, and this is one of them.  You can't see what's happened, but you can infer it based on what the screen reader is allowing you to do in that context.  And you (the generic you) had better get adept at making those inferences.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


mike mcglashon
 

I have often said that there are sometimes no substitutes for sight, and this is one of them.  You can't see what's happened, but you can infer it based on what the screen reader is allowing you to do in that context.  And you (the generic you) had better get adept at making those inferences.

-

Yeah but how can we infer anything if the screen reader doesn’t say anything at all?

You said in your previous post that nvda said something to you,

But often times either jaws or nvda says nothing;

It’s hard to infer anything from nothing;

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 7:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 07:13 PM, Gene wrote:

You are arguing by analogy between a sighted user and a blind user. It is an incorrect analogy, as I explain in my second message

-
Again, Gene, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

When focus shifts, and you have no access to what you "should," the first thing to suspect is a modal dialog (to use the correct term) has popped open and overlaid your page.

I have often said that there are sometimes no substitutes for sight, and this is one of them.  You can't see what's happened, but you can infer it based on what the screen reader is allowing you to do in that context.  And you (the generic you) had better get adept at making those inferences.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 07:38 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

It’s hard to infer anything from nothing;

 

Please advise as you like.

 

-
Is that what's happening here?  No.

If you can't get any information from the screen reader at all, that's inaccessible, plain and simple.

But I'm not going to attempt to discuss a situation not germane to this one, and in this case, where inaccessible is what something would be by definition if you can't get any information from the screen reader.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


mike mcglashon
 

Please man,

Easy,

Don’t be so rude;

I know that this particular situation your nvda said things;

I was referring to situations where it does not;

Also, some of us non-tech guys do not have thought patterns that equate to those of techies;

Hence why guys like me appreciate guys like you who do;

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 7:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 07:38 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

It’s hard to infer anything from nothing;

 

Please advise as you like.

 

-
Is that what's happening here?  No.

If you can't get any information from the screen reader at all, that's inaccessible, plain and simple.

But I'm not going to attempt to discuss a situation not germane to this one, and in this case, where inaccessible is what something would be by definition if you can't get any information from the screen reader.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 07:44 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Please man,

Easy,

Don’t be so rude;

-
I'm being rude?  You're the one that pulled out an apple when I was clearly discussing a specific situation that's an orange.  And the apple you pulled out has a completely obvious answer:  inaccessible.  It amounts to, "Look, a squirrel!," as an attempt to divert.

I'm sick of this, no matter who does it, and that includes you.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


mike mcglashon
 

Sorry about that brother,

Didn’t mean to upset you like that;

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 7:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 07:44 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Please man,

Easy,

Don’t be so rude;

-
I'm being rude?  You're the one that pulled out an apple when I was clearly discussing a specific situation that's an orange.  And the apple you pulled out has a completely obvious answer:  inaccessible.  It amounts to, "Look, a squirrel!," as an attempt to divert.

I'm sick of this, no matter who does it, and that includes you.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Sascha Cowley
 

Fair enough. Using Firefox, it was not announced, nor was focus trapped in it. Perhaps that was just something I did though, or a bit of a fluke.

On 2021-01-23 11:03, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 06:55 PM, Sascha Cowley wrote:
Technically that's just a modal dialog. Regardless, this is an accessibility problem with the page.
-
I won't argue about what it's called technically, but I doubt you'll find many who use the term "modal dialog" unless they're web programmers.

I have no idea why you say it's an accessibility problem.  I just loaded that page with NVDA, and when the dialog appears NVDA begins reading it, and it's controls.  That's what I'd expect to occur when the overlay occurs, and it does.  The screen reader is doing for its user exactly what my eyes do for me.  Once the underlying page is obscured by that overlay/modal dialog focus shifts to it and you are forced to interact with it.  This is exactly what it does if you're sighted and interacting with the site using sight and point and click.  There are no surprises there.

Once I activate the Maybe Later button I'm right back on the page with the play smooth country button, which can be activated precisely as one would expect.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel