Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?


Luke Robinett
 

Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA. I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke


 

Hi,

If I understand you, you are trying to move to the row below the current cell. If so, add Alt key to Control+down arrow keys and see if that changes things for you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Gene
 

It would be useful to have a link to a page.  I've seen such layouts that look like tables before but that don't use code that identifies them as tables.


I haven't tried this and I doubt it will work but you can try turning on use screen layout when supported.  Its in browser settings.  If it isn't checked, check the check box and activate the o.k button.


Gene

On 10/13/2021 1:26 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA. I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke



Luke Robinett
 

Hi Joseph,
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, while the information on the page appears like a table for sighted users, it is not constructed as an HTML table so those navigation keys won’t work. I went into chrome Dev tools and manually added some aria role tags to make it behave like a table and it definitely helps, but the way they’ve arranged this thing is really strange so it’s hard to make it perfect. I might write myself a chrome extension to at least make it partially accessible. Thanks again.

On Oct 13, 2021, at 11:45 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi,

If I understand you, you are trying to move to the row below the current cell. If so, add Alt key to Control+down arrow keys and see if that changes things for you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Luke Robinett
 

Hey Gene,
Thanks for the suggestion. Yeah, I will give that use screen layout option a try but since the table isn’t constructed as an HTML table when I look at the source code, I’m not sure NVDA will be able to ascertain its layout. I agree a link would be helpful but this is actually an internal task board for our software development team at work so it isn’t publicly shareable. It’s the Jira platform though which appears to be a pretty popular agile project package so perhaps I can find a sample board that is publicly shareable. I will poke around. Thanks again.

On Oct 13, 2021, at 11:53 AM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

It would be useful to have a link to a page. I've seen such layouts that look like tables before but that don't use code that identifies them as tables.


I haven't tried this and I doubt it will work but you can try turning on use screen layout when supported. Its in browser settings. If it isn't checked, check the check box and activate the o.k button.


Gene

On 10/13/2021 1:26 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA. I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke






Luke Robinett
 

I wish this agile board software was open source because then I could just submit a poll request with the area tags I came up with and that would at least make it like 75% more usable with a screen reader. No luck though. Maybe I can email them and suggest adding these tags.

On Oct 13, 2021, at 1:05 PM, Luke Robinett via groups.io <lukelistservs=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hey Gene,
Thanks for the suggestion. Yeah, I will give that use screen layout option a try but since the table isn’t constructed as an HTML table when I look at the source code, I’m not sure NVDA will be able to ascertain its layout. I agree a link would be helpful but this is actually an internal task board for our software development team at work so it isn’t publicly shareable. It’s the Jira platform though which appears to be a pretty popular agile project package so perhaps I can find a sample board that is publicly shareable. I will poke around. Thanks again.

On Oct 13, 2021, at 11:53 AM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

It would be useful to have a link to a page. I've seen such layouts that look like tables before but that don't use code that identifies them as tables.


I haven't tried this and I doubt it will work but you can try turning on use screen layout when supported. Its in browser settings. If it isn't checked, check the check box and activate the o.k button.


Gene

On 10/13/2021 1:26 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA. I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke









Jonathan COHN
 

Hello,
Essentially, what you want to be able to happen is to have NVDA check the dimensions of the current object and then move in one of the ordinal directions until a new object is discovered beyond the current objet. I could see this being a slightly modified object removed type method.

For example oif current object upper left corner is
x=40, y=60 and its size is 60x40

Pressing down arrow Should look for an object near x=40, y=100

Jonathan

On Oct 13, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Luke Robinett <lukelistservs@gmail.com> wrote:

I wish this agile board software was open source because then I could just submit a poll request with the area tags I came up with and that would at least make it like 75% more usable with a screen reader. No luck though. Maybe I can email them and suggest adding these tags.

On Oct 13, 2021, at 1:05 PM, Luke Robinett via groups.io <lukelistservs=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hey Gene,
Thanks for the suggestion. Yeah, I will give that use screen layout option a try but since the table isn’t constructed as an HTML table when I look at the source code, I’m not sure NVDA will be able to ascertain its layout. I agree a link would be helpful but this is actually an internal task board for our software development team at work so it isn’t publicly shareable. It’s the Jira platform though which appears to be a pretty popular agile project package so perhaps I can find a sample board that is publicly shareable. I will poke around. Thanks again.

On Oct 13, 2021, at 11:53 AM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

It would be useful to have a link to a page. I've seen such layouts that look like tables before but that don't use code that identifies them as tables.


I haven't tried this and I doubt it will work but you can try turning on use screen layout when supported. Its in browser settings. If it isn't checked, check the check box and activate the o.k button.


Gene

On 10/13/2021 1:26 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA. I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke












Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

try pressing alt+ctrl+down arrow when in a table.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Robinett" <lukelistservs@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:26 PM
Subject: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?


Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA. I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke


George McCoy
 

You can see an example of this in the Pontes media downloader v 3.1 in the help section under shortcut keys.


George

On 10/13/2021 3:01 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
Hi Joseph,
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, while the information on the page appears like a table for sighted users, it is not constructed as an HTML table so those navigation keys won’t work. I went into chrome Dev tools and manually added some aria role tags to make it behave like a table and it definitely helps, but the way they’ve arranged this thing is really strange so it’s hard to make it perfect. I might write myself a chrome extension to at least make it partially accessible. Thanks again.

On Oct 13, 2021, at 11:45 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi,

If I understand you, you are trying to move to the row below the current cell. If so, add Alt key to Control+down arrow keys and see if that changes things for you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Tony Malykh
 

I developed BrowserNav add-on for this. NVDA+Alt+DownArrow does this. It searches for elements that have exactly the same x coordinate.

HTH

On 10/13/2021 11:26 AM, Luke Robinett wrote:
Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA. I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke



Luke Robinett
 

Hi Robert,
Thank you for the idea. I've tried that but it doesn't work, likely because the table isn't an actual HTML table and thus NVDA can't traverse it as such. Thanks again.

Luke

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 2:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?

try pressing alt+ctrl+down arrow when in a table.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Robinett" <lukelistservs@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:26 PM
Subject: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?


Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA.
I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke


Gene
 

Unfortunately, as I thought about it, I realized the support screen layout option in NVDA wouldn’t work.  The screen layout probably is the same as a table, but without code that lets a screen-reader work with it.  So you must read by line and see everything on the line you move to.
 
Is there a possibility that NVDA could have a feature where you set a start point and an end point and only have what is between those points read as you move up and down by line? 
If so, I could set a start and end point so that each line I moved to would only have the third item from the left announced, for example.  And if something like a book appears on  screen in columns, I could set the start and end point to read one column.
This may not be possible in Windows.  This isn’t my idea, it was done decades ago in a DOS screen-reader, ASAP.  If it could be done in Windows screen-readers, it probably would have been but I don’t want to assume.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?
 
Hi Robert,
Thank you for the idea. I've tried that but it doesn't work, likely because the table isn't an actual HTML table and thus NVDA can't  traverse it as such. Thanks again.

Luke


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 2:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?

try pressing alt+ctrl+down arrow when in a table.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Robinett" <lukelistservs@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:26 PM
Subject: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?


Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA.
I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found  to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke
















William
 

I know some website intended to prevent people from scraping their data, they intended not to make those data to be put in a proper table.

Besides, I also seeing some website simply just use spaces to make data visually like arranged in a table.


Encountering these data really feel annoying.



Gene 於 15/10/2021 9:59 寫道:

Unfortunately, as I thought about it, I realized the support screen layout option in NVDA wouldn’t work.  The screen layout probably is the same as a table, but without code that lets a screen-reader work with it.  So you must read by line and see everything on the line you move to.
 
Is there a possibility that NVDA could have a feature where you set a start point and an end point and only have what is between those points read as you move up and down by line? 
If so, I could set a start and end point so that each line I moved to would only have the third item from the left announced, for example.  And if something like a book appears on  screen in columns, I could set the start and end point to read one column.
This may not be possible in Windows.  This isn’t my idea, it was done decades ago in a DOS screen-reader, ASAP.  If it could be done in Windows screen-readers, it probably would have been but I don’t want to assume.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?
 
Hi Robert,
Thank you for the idea. I've tried that but it doesn't work, likely because the table isn't an actual HTML table and thus NVDA can't  traverse it as such. Thanks again.

Luke


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 2:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?

try pressing alt+ctrl+down arrow when in a table.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Robinett" <lukelistservs@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 12:26 PM
Subject: [nvda] Navigation similar to the “vertical navigation” voiceover feature?


Hi folks,
imagine I’ve got a webpage open and there is information on it that is visually laid out like a table but is not traversable as a table using NVDA.
I am on a column heading and I want to move focus directly below it to the first cellof that column. In iOS, there’s a rotor option called “vertical navigation” that allows me to do this easily. Is there any such functionality in NVDA? Unfortunately, the only way I’v found  to get to that cell is to press control + down arrow repeatedly,traveling through all The other column headings first, making it sometimes impossible to know when I’ve actually arrived at the first item under that original column heading. I hope the description of the problem makes sense. Thank you for any tips or strategies.

Luke