Topics

NVDA adding and changing settings

Grant Metcalf
 

When saving a document NVDA does not say "Document saved." How does one add this save command to NVDA to be read when a document is saved? I prefer not to have to scroll around the screen to find this information. Also, if there are other Windows commands that can be added I would appreciate knowing how to add them as well.
Gratefully yours.
Listening for His shout!
Grant Metcalf - A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
Email: the.gems@...
Home: (650) 589-6890
Cell: (650) 278-3084
Website: http://bartimaeus.us/

Arlene
 

Grant! In my win 7 box, I had outlook 2010. I used NVDA for when I had to write a document in word. When I went to save it. NVDA did not ask you if you want to save the document. I can’t remember how I did it using it. I had to close NVDA down and get Jaws up. I had to save the document using jaws cause Jaws does ask you if you want to save your document. I told it yes. I don’t have word now that I have win ten. If I did. I’d retest NVDA and try to save a document using NVDA. I’d try to find how one does it.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Grant Metcalf
Sent: November 6, 2019 7:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

When saving a document NVDA does not say "Document saved."  How does one add

this save command to NVDA to be read when a document is saved? I prefer not

to have to scroll around the screen to find this information. Also, if there

are other Windows commands that can be added I would appreciate knowing how

to add them as well.

Gratefully yours.

Listening for His shout!

Grant Metcalf - A.K.A. Grandpa DOS

Email: the.gems@...

Home: (650) 589-6890

Cell: (650) 278-3084

Website: http://bartimaeus.us/

 

 

 

 

Grant Metcalf
 

Hi Arlene,
Using Notepad in Win7 the control-s command saves my document. What I do not hear in NVDA is the question “do you want to save the document” and the statement “document saved.”
I use Window-Eyes and it tells me what I want and like to hear! I was doing some editing earlier this evening using NVDA and found other differences on the QBraille display I use. If and when it becomes necessary to only use NVDA it will take some getting used to on my Win10 PC since it does not use Window-Eyes. There are days when Grandpa DOS wishes he could go back to DOS again!
Thanks for your reply.
Listening for His shout!
Grant

Chris Mullins
 

Hi

I have been using screen readers for years, though not WindowEyes, and cannot remember a time when i relied on a “document saved” message appearing.  When editing a document in Word or Notepad, Control+s is the shortcut to save your document without exiting from it.  Using this shortcut implies that you want to save your document contents at that point. If you then use alt+f4 to close the document, it will close. 

If your document contains unsaved changes and you try to close it using Alt+f4, you will get a message asking if you want to save the document or not  .  At this point you have 3 choices:

you can press the ‘Save’ button – saves the document and closes it  

You can press the ‘don’t Save’ button – Closes the document without saving it. **

You can press the ‘Cancel’ button – returns focus to the document which remains open.

 

** Word contains options to auto-save a document at timed intervals whilst editing.  If this feature is active, when choosing not to save, you may get a further choice to disregard all changes or only those made since a particular auto-save point.

 

So, in a nutshell, if you want to be asked if you want to save or not, don’t bother with Control+s, just press alt+f4.   If there are unsaved changes you will get the Save/Don’t Save dialog, if you haven’t changed anything the document will close.

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Grant Metcalf
Sent: 7 November 2019 07:06
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi Arlene,

Using Notepad in Win7 the control-s command saves my document. What I do not hear in NVDA is the question “do you want to save the document” and the statement “document saved.”

I use Window-Eyes and it tells me what I want and like to hear! I was doing some editing earlier this evening using NVDA and found other differences on the QBraille display I use. If and when it becomes necessary to only use NVDA it will take some getting used to on my Win10 PC since it does not use Window-Eyes. There are days when Grandpa DOS wishes he could go back to DOS again!

Thanks for your reply.

Listening for His shout!

Grant

Sarah k Alawami
 

I never ever hear document saved, never have ever since I started learning how to use doss in 1994 or so. But yeah control s and if you hear nothing you can assume the document has ben saved.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.

to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Nov 2019, at 3:56, Chris Mullins wrote:

Hi

I have been using screen readers for years, though not WindowEyes, and cannot remember a time when i relied on a “document saved” message appearing.  When editing a document in Word or Notepad, Control+s is the shortcut to save your document without exiting from it.  Using this shortcut implies that you want to save your document contents at that point. If you then use alt+f4 to close the document, it will close. 

If your document contains unsaved changes and you try to close it using Alt+f4, you will get a message asking if you want to save the document or not  .  At this point you have 3 choices:

you can press the ‘Save’ button – saves the document and closes it  

You can press the ‘don’t Save’ button – Closes the document without saving it. **

You can press the ‘Cancel’ button – returns focus to the document which remains open.

 

** Word contains options to auto-save a document at timed intervals whilst editing.  If this feature is active, when choosing not to save, you may get a further choice to disregard all changes or only those made since a particular auto-save point.

 

So, in a nutshell, if you want to be asked if you want to save or not, don’t bother with Control+s, just press alt+f4.   If there are unsaved changes you will get the Save/Don’t Save dialog, if you haven’t changed anything the document will close.

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Grant Metcalf
Sent: 7 November 2019 07:06
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi Arlene,

Using Notepad in Win7 the control-s command saves my document. What I do not hear in NVDA is the question “do you want to save the document” and the statement “document saved.”

I use Window-Eyes and it tells me what I want and like to hear! I was doing some editing earlier this evening using NVDA and found other differences on the QBraille display I use. If and when it becomes necessary to only use NVDA it will take some getting used to on my Win10 PC since it does not use Window-Eyes. There are days when Grandpa DOS wishes he could go back to DOS again!

Thanks for your reply.

Listening for His shout!

Grant

Gene
 

It sounds as though NVDA isn't reading the save as dialog when the file has never been saved before.  If the file has been saved before, there is no save as dialog.  The new version of the file is saved.  If it isn't, because the control s command didn't work for some reason, when you try to close the program, you will be asked if you want to save the changes, so you will know if you need to save the message.  but the save as dialog should be read when it appears when you first save the document.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi

I have been using screen readers for years, though not WindowEyes, and cannot remember a time when i relied on a “document saved” message appearing.  When editing a document in Word or Notepad, Control+s is the shortcut to save your document without exiting from it.  Using this shortcut implies that you want to save your document contents at that point. If you then use alt+f4 to close the document, it will close. 

If your document contains unsaved changes and you try to close it using Alt+f4, you will get a message asking if you want to save the document or not  .  At this point you have 3 choices:

you can press the ‘Save’ button – saves the document and closes it  

You can press the ‘don’t Save’ button – Closes the document without saving it. **

You can press the ‘Cancel’ button – returns focus to the document which remains open.

 

** Word contains options to auto-save a document at timed intervals whilst editing.  If this feature is active, when choosing not to save, you may get a further choice to disregard all changes or only those made since a particular auto-save point.

 

So, in a nutshell, if you want to be asked if you want to save or not, don’t bother with Control+s, just press alt+f4.   If there are unsaved changes you will get the Save/Don’t Save dialog, if you haven’t changed anything the document will close.

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Grant Metcalf
Sent: 7 November 2019 07:06
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi Arlene,

Using Notepad in Win7 the control-s command saves my document. What I do not hear in NVDA is the question “do you want to save the document” and the statement “document saved.”

I use Window-Eyes and it tells me what I want and like to hear! I was doing some editing earlier this evening using NVDA and found other differences on the QBraille display I use. If and when it becomes necessary to only use NVDA it will take some getting used to on my Win10 PC since it does not use Window-Eyes. There are days when Grandpa DOS wishes he could go back to DOS again!

Thanks for your reply.

Listening for His shout!

Grant

Gene
 

You can't ever assume anything when you issue a command without feedback.  I issue commands, now and then and, even though I issue them correctly, I have to issue them again.  But there is a way to check very easily.  Close the document or the program and see if you are asked if you want to save the changes.
 
And we are discussing what happens in terms of no feedback when you save an already saved document.  We don't know if the person is discussing that or discussing the lack of a save as dialog the first time a document is saved.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I never ever hear document saved, never have ever since I started learning how to use doss in 1994 or so. But yeah control s and if you hear nothing you can assume the document has ben saved.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.

to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Nov 2019, at 3:56, Chris Mullins wrote:

Hi

I have been using screen readers for years, though not WindowEyes, and cannot remember a time when i relied on a “document saved” message appearing.  When editing a document in Word or Notepad, Control+s is the shortcut to save your document without exiting from it.  Using this shortcut implies that you want to save your document contents at that point. If you then use alt+f4 to close the document, it will close. 

If your document contains unsaved changes and you try to close it using Alt+f4, you will get a message asking if you want to save the document or not  .  At this point you have 3 choices:

you can press the ‘Save’ button – saves the document and closes it  

You can press the ‘don’t Save’ button – Closes the document without saving it. **

You can press the ‘Cancel’ button – returns focus to the document which remains open.

 

** Word contains options to auto-save a document at timed intervals whilst editing.  If this feature is active, when choosing not to save, you may get a further choice to disregard all changes or only those made since a particular auto-save point.

 

So, in a nutshell, if you want to be asked if you want to save or not, don’t bother with Control+s, just press alt+f4.   If there are unsaved changes you will get the Save/Don’t Save dialog, if you haven’t changed anything the document will close.

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Grant Metcalf
Sent: 7 November 2019 07:06
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi Arlene,

Using Notepad in Win7 the control-s command saves my document. What I do not hear in NVDA is the question “do you want to save the document” and the statement “document saved.”

I use Window-Eyes and it tells me what I want and like to hear! I was doing some editing earlier this evening using NVDA and found other differences on the QBraille display I use. If and when it becomes necessary to only use NVDA it will take some getting used to on my Win10 PC since it does not use Window-Eyes. There are days when Grandpa DOS wishes he could go back to DOS again!

Thanks for your reply.

Listening for His shout!

Grant

Grant Metcalf
 

Gene,
Thank you for suggesting using the alt-f4 command to see if the document needs to be saved. That will be of some help to Grandpa DOS. Still wish I could hear “document saved”, however, when using the control-s command. :_)
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
Email: the.gems@...
Home: (650) 589-6890
Cell: (650) 278-3084

Sarah k Alawami
 

I don't quite understand why you heard that and we don't. I just never need to hear it, not on any platform I use. I just like I said assume. You don't need to really hear it but just alt f4 or how ever you get out of the windows, control w also works and if you get that prompt you will know you did not invoke the save dialogue. If you saved and got that dialogue and you invoked the control s you will know it just saved as it should just work.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.

to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Nov 2019, at 9:04, Grant Metcalf wrote:

Gene,
Thank you for suggesting using the alt-f4 command to see if the document needs to be saved. That will be of some help to Grandpa DOS. Still wish I could hear “document saved”, however, when using the control-s command. :_)
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
Email: the.gems@...
Home: (650) 589-6890
Cell: (650) 278-3084

Chris Mullins
 

Hi

Control+s and pressing the save button on the dialog displayed after pressing Alt+f4 will display the SaveAs dialog when used on an untitled Notepad file.  Either NVDA is very slow to give it focus or Notepad is slow to display it but it does eventually turn up.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 7 November 2019 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

It sounds as though NVDA isn't reading the save as dialog when the file has never been saved before.  If the file has been saved before, there is no save as dialog.  The new version of the file is saved.  If it isn't, because the control s command didn't work for some reason, when you try to close the program, you will be asked if you want to save the changes, so you will know if you need to save the message.  but the save as dialog should be read when it appears when you first save the document.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 5:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi

I have been using screen readers for years, though not WindowEyes, and cannot remember a time when i relied on a “document saved” message appearing.  When editing a document in Word or Notepad, Control+s is the shortcut to save your document without exiting from it.  Using this shortcut implies that you want to save your document contents at that point. If you then use alt+f4 to close the document, it will close. 

If your document contains unsaved changes and you try to close it using Alt+f4, you will get a message asking if you want to save the document or not  .  At this point you have 3 choices:

you can press the ‘Save’ button – saves the document and closes it  

You can press the ‘don’t Save’ button – Closes the document without saving it. **

You can press the ‘Cancel’ button – returns focus to the document which remains open.

 

** Word contains options to auto-save a document at timed intervals whilst editing.  If this feature is active, when choosing not to save, you may get a further choice to disregard all changes or only those made since a particular auto-save point.

 

So, in a nutshell, if you want to be asked if you want to save or not, don’t bother with Control+s, just press alt+f4.   If there are unsaved changes you will get the Save/Don’t Save dialog, if you haven’t changed anything the document will close.

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Grant Metcalf
Sent: 7 November 2019 07:06
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi Arlene,

Using Notepad in Win7 the control-s command saves my document. What I do not hear in NVDA is the question “do you want to save the document” and the statement “document saved.”

I use Window-Eyes and it tells me what I want and like to hear! I was doing some editing earlier this evening using NVDA and found other differences on the QBraille display I use. If and when it becomes necessary to only use NVDA it will take some getting used to on my Win10 PC since it does not use Window-Eyes. There are days when Grandpa DOS wishes he could go back to DOS again!

Thanks for your reply.

Listening for His shout!

Grant

Gene
 

I don't know why, but for some reason, this isn't standard behavior, at least as NVDA and JAWS are concerned.  Does a sighted person see anything indicating that an already saved document is resaved?  You would think there would be some sort of indication, but I don't know and the lack of an indication from JAWS and NVDA may mean that none is given.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene,
Thank you for suggesting using the alt-f4 command to see if the document needs to be saved. That will be of some help to Grandpa DOS. Still wish I could hear “document saved”, however, when using the control-s command. :_)
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
Email: the.gems@...
Home: (650) 589-6890
Cell: (650) 278-3084

Gene
 

Grant and all
 
Since, in my experience, there are times when a command needs to be issued twice, issuing control so twice, pausing briefly between times, will be just about certain to save the document.  So if you issue the command twice, the likelihood of both times failing is so small that there is no need to worry.  I'm not thinking of times when you are going to close the document, I'm thinking of times when you do some work and you want to save your work before adding or changing more in the document.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I don't quite understand why you heard that and we don't. I just never need to hear it, not on any platform I use. I just like I said assume. You don't need to really hear it but just alt f4 or how ever you get out of the windows, control w also works and if you get that prompt you will know you did not invoke the save dialogue. If you saved and got that dialogue and you invoked the control s you will know it just saved as it should just work.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.

to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Nov 2019, at 9:04, Grant Metcalf wrote:

Gene,
Thank you for suggesting using the alt-f4 command to see if the document needs to be saved. That will be of some help to Grandpa DOS. Still wish I could hear “document saved”, however, when using the control-s command. :_)
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
Email: the.gems@...
Home: (650) 589-6890
Cell: (650) 278-3084

Grant Metcalf
 

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 

Gene
 

Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

Gene
 

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

Gene
 

I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

Quentin Christensen
 

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Gene
 

If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Quentin Christensen
 

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message.  Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent.  You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"  The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager