Topics

NVDA and speaking Capital letter

William Wong
 

Hi,

I use Windows onecore voices to speak English. sometimes when it come across some letters that put together in Capital, e.g. SPX, it can read individually by speaking as S P X. but some letters, e.g. DAX, it will try to speak it as a whole word but not individually.


Any underlying rules of which word will speak individually and which word will speak as a whole?


At this point, I know I can only add speech dic for each individual word to change the way

 how nvda speak.


 nvda speak. but is there a way to tell nvda to process all capital letter as individual letter, like that of the number processing addon?

Thanks,William

 

Although I can't speak definitively, I'd have to guess that what determines whether an acronym in all capital letters gets spoken as a word is whether the letters in the sequence can be pronounced under the rules of English phonotactics or not.  Using your example D A X together can be spoken as dacks.  There is no way, under the rules of English phonotactics that SPX can be pronounced as a word.  It has to be rendered letter by letter.  Another example is NASA, which can be pronounced as a word, versus LPG, which cannot.

I know of regular expressions you could use to recognize all capital letter acronyms in a fixed number of characters, say 3 or 4 or 5, and pronounce those as their individual letters, but I do not know how to do this for an indeterminate number of sequential capital letters.  You'd also have to be somewhat careful about this, since it can quickly drive you crazy if you're reading a document that has lots of pronouncable acronyms and you end up having them broken into letters every time.  It would drive me insane to hear NASA pronounced as N A S A were I reading anything that refers to the U.S. National Aeronautical and Space Administration repeatedly by its well-known acronym.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 

William Wong
 

The regular expression you are rfering to is like this, if like 3 capital letters going together.

([A-Z])([A-Z])([A-Z])




Brian Vogel 於 1/6/2020 6:40 寫道:

Although I can't speak definitively, I'd have to guess that what determines whether an acronym in all capital letters gets spoken as a word is whether the letters in the sequence can be pronounced under the rules of English phonotactics or not.  Using your example D A X together can be spoken as dacks.  There is no way, under the rules of English phonotactics that SPX can be pronounced as a word.  It has to be rendered letter by letter.  Another example is NASA, which can be pronounced as a word, versus LPG, which cannot.

I know of regular expressions you could use to recognize all capital letter acronyms in a fixed number of characters, say 3 or 4 or 5, and pronounce those as their individual letters, but I do not know how to do this for an indeterminate number of sequential capital letters.  You'd also have to be somewhat careful about this, since it can quickly drive you crazy if you're reading a document that has lots of pronouncable acronyms and you end up having them broken into letters every time.  It would drive me insane to hear NASA pronounced as N A S A were I reading anything that refers to the U.S. National Aeronautical and Space Administration repeatedly by its well-known acronym.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 

 

Yes, that would be the regex, and the replacement would be \1 \2 \3
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 

 

brian, in espeak, how can i set it to pronunce capital letters as small letters?
for example: if all or most letters in words are in capital letters,
nvda reads them letter by letter.
for example:
UP arrow, ENd, TAB, etc.

On 6/1/20, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Although I can't speak definitively, I'd have to guess that what determines
whether an acronym in all capital letters gets spoken as a word is whether
the letters in the sequence can be pronounced under the rules of English
phonotactics or not. Using your example D A X together can be spoken as
dacks. There is no way, under the rules of English phonotactics that SPX
can be pronounced as a word. It has to be rendered letter by letter.
Another example is NASA, which can be pronounced as a word, versus LPG,
which cannot.

I know of regular expressions you could use to recognize all capital letter
acronyms in a fixed number of characters, say 3 or 4 or 5, and pronounce
those as their individual letters, but I do not know how to do this for an
indeterminate number of sequential capital letters. You'd also have to be
somewhat careful about this, since it can quickly drive you crazy if you're
reading a document that has lots of pronouncable acronyms and you end up
having them broken into letters every time. It would drive me insane to
hear NASA pronounced as N A S A were I reading anything that refers to the
U.S. National Aeronautical and Space Administration repeatedly by its
well-known acronym.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform. Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment
Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html
) , September 23, 2019



--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

Marquette, Ed
 

This is inaccurate. Whether a group of letters is pronounced as a word is a function of the rules of phonetics, as Brian says. Capitalization is irrelevant.
For instance, spx and SPX are pronounced the same way, even though one is in capital letters and one is not.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but what NVDA needs is not a rule about enunciating letters when words are in solid caps, but instead, capital recognition when reading by line, sentence, or paragraph. For instance, I do not care how spx is pronounced, but I would like to know when SPX is in all caps.
Presently, there is no way to distinguish between the two in NVDA, except by reading by character.
Similarly, when reading a legal document, a "Party" with a capital letter is likely a signatory to the contract; a "party" in lower case often is not. The whole interpretation of a contract can turn on the presence of a capital letter, but now one has to stop reading by sentence and manually check the potentially suspect word to see if it is or is not capitalized. This is not just a good thing, it is a crucial thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 12:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and speaking Capital letter

[ CAUTION - EXTERNAL SENDER ]

brian, in espeak, how can i set it to pronunce capital letters as small letters?
for example: if all or most letters in words are in capital letters, nvda reads them letter by letter.
for example:
UP arrow, ENd, TAB, etc.

On 6/1/20, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Although I can't speak definitively, I'd have to guess that what
determines whether an acronym in all capital letters gets spoken as a
word is whether the letters in the sequence can be pronounced under
the rules of English phonotactics or not. Using your example D A X
together can be spoken as dacks. There is no way, under the rules of
English phonotactics that SPX can be pronounced as a word. It has to be rendered letter by letter.
Another example is NASA, which can be pronounced as a word, versus
LPG, which cannot.

I know of regular expressions you could use to recognize all capital
letter acronyms in a fixed number of characters, say 3 or 4 or 5, and
pronounce those as their individual letters, but I do not know how to
do this for an indeterminate number of sequential capital letters.
You'd also have to be somewhat careful about this, since it can
quickly drive you crazy if you're reading a document that has lots of
pronouncable acronyms and you end up having them broken into letters
every time. It would drive me insane to hear NASA pronounced as N A S
A were I reading anything that refers to the U.S. National
Aeronautical and Space Administration repeatedly by its well-known acronym.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform. Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine
Sentiment Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html
s.com
) , September 23, 2019




--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali






This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipients above and may contain information
that is privileged, attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law. If you have received this
message in error, please notify the sender at 402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

 

Zahra,

             You do not mention the version of NVDA you are using, but I have to presume, absent any updates, that it's an ancient one.  It would still help to know.

              NVDA does not generally appear to be case sensitive, and the word up, rendered in full uppercase as UP, should still be pronounced just like lowercase up is.  Using your example:  UP arrow, ENd, TAB

NVDA 2020.1 reads it as up arrow, E N d, tab.  I can get why the mixed case might do this, as the use of multiple capitals mixed with lower case is difficult to interpret as to whether something's being styled to be read as separate letters or not.  If I change the capital E N followed by lowercase d to uppercase E, lowercase n, uppercase D, then NVDA says En D, since En is pronouncable, just like the letter N itself is pronounced, in English.

PhD is pronounced as P H D, just as I'd expect, and just as most readers who see such after an individual's name would say it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 

 

On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 09:47 AM, Marquette, Ed wrote:
The whole interpretation of a contract can turn on the presence of a capital letter, but now one has to stop reading by sentence and manually check the potentially suspect word to see if it is or is not capitalized. This is not just a good thing, it is a crucial thing.
Ed,

          Not that I'm disagreeing with your point, because I'm not, but I will say this again:  Complaining on a user group is not the way to register the need for these changes such that they will be made.

          This very issue was just discussed within the last couple of weeks.  Someone else gave the direct link to the NVDA issue on GitHub regarding same.  Those of you who want this, and I know why you want it, would be spending your time far more effectively by adding a comment to that very issue rather than complaining here.  The number of comments on a given issue in an issue tracking system is one of the primary metrics used to determine how important something is to the user community.  And the NVDA user community has the absolute luxury, and it is one, of having direct access to the issue tracking system used by NVAccess for the product.

          I am no longer going to post links to the results of archive searches.  The membership of this group must, yes, must, learn how to do effective archive searches themselves.  Searching the NVDA Group Archive. A search on the phrase "Capital Letter Recognition" gets you straight to Quentin Christensen's post giving the link to the NVDA issue.  If this is important enough to pursue, then do that search, set up a GitHub account if you don't already have one (and I'll be happy to supply step by step instructions if you need those), and click through to that issue and add your comment.  This is how things get done, and it's up to those who want them done to undertake the steps necessary.  You, in fact, were the individual to whom Quentin was responding, so this should not be news to you.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 

Marquette, Ed
 

Thank you.

I didn’t mean to complain, and I wouldn’t have brought it up separately, but since another brought it up …

But you are right about GitHub, and I’ll try the GitHub site again.  I just have not had the time.

I did try to log into GitHub once before, but something went wrong.  It was not straightforward.  I’ll give it another try when I can focus.   

I saved Quentin’s instructions.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 11:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and speaking Capital letter

 

[ CAUTION - EXTERNAL SENDER ]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 09:47 AM, Marquette, Ed wrote:

The whole interpretation of a contract can turn on the presence of a capital letter, but now one has to stop reading by sentence and manually check the potentially suspect word to see if it is or is not capitalized. This is not just a good thing, it is a crucial thing.

Ed,

          Not that I'm disagreeing with your point, because I'm not, but I will say this again:  Complaining on a user group is not the way to register the need for these changes such that they will be made.

          This very issue was just discussed within the last couple of weeks.  Someone else gave the direct link to the NVDA issue on GitHub regarding same.  Those of you who want this, and I know why you want it, would be spending your time far more effectively by adding a comment to that very issue rather than complaining here.  The number of comments on a given issue in an issue tracking system is one of the primary metrics used to determine how important something is to the user community.  And the NVDA user community has the absolute luxury, and it is one, of having direct access to the issue tracking system used by NVAccess for the product.

          I am no longer going to post links to the results of archive searches.  The membership of this group must, yes, must, learn how to do effective archive searches themselves.  Searching the NVDA Group Archive. A search on the phrase "Capital Letter Recognition" gets you straight to Quentin Christensen's post giving the link to the NVDA issue.  If this is important enough to pursue, then do that search, set up a GitHub account if you don't already have one (and I'll be happy to supply step by step instructions if you need those), and click through to that issue and add your comment.  This is how things get done, and it's up to those who want them done to undertake the steps necessary.  You, in fact, were the individual to whom Quentin was responding, so this should not be news to you.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 

 




This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipients above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender at 402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message. Thank you.

 

thanks brian for your comments.
as i always mentioned and emphasized, 2017.2 is the best version for me!
but, u p e n d etc, are pronunced by espeak as single letters rather
than complete word, for me because i use SayAll for reading.
if i navigate word by word, espeak reads capitalized words like the
way which it reads them if they are in small letters!
but i am comfortable reading using SayAll, and its very enjoyable and
pleasant even if i read hundreds or at least tens of pages!

On 6/1/20, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Zahra,

You do not mention the version of NVDA you are using, but I have to presume,
absent any updates, that it's an ancient one. It would still help to know.

NVDA does not generally appear to be case sensitive, and the word up,
rendered in full uppercase as UP, should still be pronounced just like
lowercase up is. Using your example: UP arrow, ENd, TAB

NVDA 2020.1 reads it as up arrow, E N d, tab. I can get why the mixed case
might do this, as the use of multiple capitals mixed with lower case is
difficult to interpret as to whether something's being styled to be read as
separate letters or not. If I change the capital E N followed by lowercase
d to uppercase E, lowercase n, uppercase D, then NVDA says En D, since En is
pronouncable, just like the letter N itself is pronounced, in English.

PhD is pronounced as P H D, just as I'd expect, and just as most readers who
see such after an individual's name would say it.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform. Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment
Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html
) , September 23, 2019



--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

 
Edited

On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 01:36 PM, Marquette, Ed wrote:
I didn’t mean to complain, and I wouldn’t have brought it up separately, but since another brought it up …
Ed,

             Thanks for your kind and measured response.  I want to make clear that it isn't the complaining/venting that's the issue, it's that very often it's the only thing that's happening (and this is addressed to the readership, not you specifically).

             Software development has certain conventions.  We are lucky here because there are actually a couple of members "high up" on the NVAccess team that read regularly, but that's a rare exception rather than the rule, and I'm sure that reading is constrained by more pressing commitments.  One of those conventions is the use of systems such as GitHub to track and respond to issues and suggestions.  In most cases, end users don't even have the ability to touch said systems, there's a middle-man such as the Microsoft Feedback Hub under Windows 10, where that input is then later filtered by others and entered into the actual systems used to track and prioritize issues.

              It is critically important that those reading this list realize just how lucky they are to have a method to go "straight to the source" when they encounter an issue or have a suggestion, then check if it has already been entered by someone else, in which case they should add a comment on to the end of the existing issue as appropriate, even if it's as simple as, "I'm having precisely the same problem/I would like to see this feature implemented as well," or to open a new one.  That's where the proverbial rubber meets the road.

               I have no idea what it may, or may not accomplish, but I went to that very GitHub ticket a short while ago and mentioned that traffic requesting the functionality has been very high recently here on the NVDA Group and that the issue has now been open for six years.  It has has a lot of in-depth comments regarding possible implementation options over that time, but little input from end users regarding the desire/need for said functionality.  Going on record by those who actually do need it bumps up the visibility of "old tickets," and particularly if there is a sudden increase in activity on said tickets.

                I also hadn't recalled that I already put these instructions on my Google Drive so anyone who needs them can download them, but here they are:  Creating a Github Account

 

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 

 

On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 01:38 PM, zahra wrote:
as i always mentioned and emphasized, 2017.2 is the best version for me!
Zahra,

         First, and most importantly, there are always new members reading you for the first time that have no idea of your history.  Even though I do, even I didn't recall that it was specifically NVDA 2017.2 where you stopped upgrading, though I know you continue to use Windows XP.   That's why it's really important for you to repeat, when asking any question, that you are using NVDA 2017.2 and Windows XP.

          There will not be many others, if any, who read here who are in your situation, but there may be.  They would really be the only ones who could help you with "the details" because most of us long ago went off of NVDA 2017.x and Window XP.   You are using an unsupported version of both the screen reader and Windows operating system, so what you have is what you've got, and will continue to have, unless some existing setting that you haven't tweaked (and may not have known about) is identified by someone else to assist you.

           But when you post without any information regarding what you are actually using, it is the typical expectation that you are using a supported version of NVDA and Windows by those who do not know or recall otherwise.  When you ask questions omitting that information you are going to end up getting a lot of answers that will not be applicable to you, which is why I implore you to routinely include the opening line:   Using NVDA 2017.2 on Windows XP

            And this applies generally to everyone.  It's really, really important when asking questions on software that the software version number being used, and the operating system it's being used under, are included.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 

 

brian, thanks so much for your supports and helps as always.
do you mean that all people including me, should mention our windows
and nvda version when we ask something about nvda, for example: how to
use specific feature of nvda or how to change nvda according to our
desires?
and many new members of this list, dont know me and dont know my history.
and other members may forget my case and i should recall everytime
that i post comment and request or ask something about nvda?

On 6/1/20, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 01:38 PM, zahra wrote:


as i always mentioned and emphasized, 2017.2 is the best version for me!
Zahra,

First, and most importantly, there are always new members reading you for
the first time that have no idea of your history. Even though I do, even I
didn't recall that it was specifically NVDA 2017.2 where you stopped
upgrading, though I know you continue to use Windows XP. That's why it's
really important for you to repeat, when asking any question, that you are
using NVDA 2017.2 and Windows XP.

There will not be many others, if any, who read here who are in your
situation, but there may be. They would really be the only ones who could
help you with "the details" because most of us long ago went off of NVDA
2017.x and Window XP. You are using an unsupported version of both the
screen reader and Windows operating system, so what you have is what you've
got, and will continue to have, unless some existing setting that you
haven't tweaked (and may not have known about) is identified by someone else
to assist you.

But when you post without any information regarding what you are actually
using, it is the typical expectation that you are using a supported version
of NVDA and Windows by those who do not know or recall otherwise. When you
ask questions omitting that information you are going to end up getting a
lot of answers that will not be applicable to you, which is why I implore
you to routinely include the opening line: Using NVDA 2017.2 on Windows
XP

And this applies generally to everyone. It's really, really important when
asking questions on software that the software version number being used,
and the operating system it's being used under, are included.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform. Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment
Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html
) , September 23, 2019



--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

 

On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 12:49 AM, zahra wrote:
do you mean that all people including me, should mention our windows
and nvda version when we ask something about nvda, for example: how to
use specific feature of nvda or how to change nvda according to our
desires?
Yep.   As lovely as it would be if we could all read minds, we can't.  If you look at the signature that comes along with every message I write, immediately after my name is the Windows 10 Edition, bit-depth (which is optional, but I would want to know really if someone is still using 32-bit), Version and Build numbers.  In your case for XP that would be service pack level.  If I'm asking a question about NVDA, and I have, I always mention the NVDA version I'm running.  If I have a question in regard to MS-Office, I always mention that I'm using Office 2016 (or Word 2016, etc.).  That's essential information.

When anyone is asking technical questions, the only way that both the person asking and answering can be certain that they're talking about the same things is if those very things are explicitly laid out.

It needn't be long and flowery, just there.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019