Topics

nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information


Gene
 

Do many effects cause problems or mainly the cutting off after inactivity? Do developers have information about that so it can be determined if the time and effort would be worth the results?

Mhy impression is that the main problem is the cuttoff problem but that's an impression.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2020 11:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information



I really think it would be benefitial though. Audio effects probably were not designed to be used or to enhance screen reader use. Also, there only a handful of companies producing the intigrated audio chips, and discrete cards.







On 9/5/2020 11:40 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:


Hi,

This will require a close collaboration with sound card manufacturers and driver providers so an API set can be created to control this behavior.

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 9:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information





Hello Joseph,

What I think would be extremely useful, is if microsoft added a screen reader flag or something that automatically would disable all enhancements for audio cards. Often I have read on many laptops that the control panels for disabling these aren't usually accessible. NVDA then could have an option to disable them when the screen reader is enabled.



On 9/5/2020 11:28 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,

Specifically, this and some related fixes are going through testing phase at the moment.

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information





This is due to enhancements, and computer putting audio card to sleep. Stable NVDA will enclude a fix for this, but until then there are programs etc to download to stop this behavior.



On 8/30/2020 2:26 PM, UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu wrote:



I use usbheadphone not bluethoot but When you mentioned it, I relized that the problem disappears when I disconnect my headphone. I donwloaded the addon and it seems to work.
thank you very much.


 

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 01:22 PM, Sean wrote:
Also, your programming for years is not an obstacle to discussing this problem.
-
It actually could be, depending on the experience of the person(s) I'm discussing it with.  I would not expect a physicist to try to have a conversation with me about physics in the same way he or she could or would with someone who is actually another physicist.  Experience does matter, and those lacking it are willing to make certain presumptions that are often not true.  But the bigger problem is that we are now so far outside anything specifically NVDA related that it does not belong here.

I will be happy to continue this conversation on the Chat Subgroup if someone wants to start a topic there.  But as far as I'm concerned, deep-dive discussions of sound cards and their enhancements is not in any meaningful sense related to NVDA and is not appropriate here.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 


 

Hi,
This is mainly caused by power saving measures taken by the sound card based on what the driver tells it to do. Several solutions were explored by NVDA developers and add-ons community, including playing silence, not closing the audio device, and so on. The latter was chosen for 2020.3 - NVDA will try its best to not close the audio device for a while (about ten seconds or so) after speech utterance is finished).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information

Do many effects cause problems or mainly the cutting off after inactivity?
Do developers have information about that so it can be determined if the time and effort would be worth the results?

Mhy impression is that the main problem is the cuttoff problem but that's an impression.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2020 11:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information



I really think it would be benefitial though. Audio effects probably were
not designed to be used or to enhance screen reader use. Also, there only a
handful of companies producing the intigrated audio chips, and discrete
cards.







On 9/5/2020 11:40 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:


Hi,

This will require a close collaboration with sound card manufacturers and
driver providers so an API set can be created to control this behavior.

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io On Behalf Of enes
saribas
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 9:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information





Hello Joseph,

What I think would be extremely useful, is if microsoft added a screen
reader flag or something that automatically would disable all enhancements
for audio cards. Often I have read on many laptops that the control panels
for disabling these aren't usually accessible. NVDA then could have an
option to disable them when the screen reader is enabled.



On 9/5/2020 11:28 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,

Specifically, this and some related fixes are going through testing phase at
the moment.

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io On Behalf Of enes
saribas
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information





This is due to enhancements, and computer putting audio card to sleep.
Stable NVDA will enclude a fix for this, but until then there are programs
etc to download to stop this behavior.



On 8/30/2020 2:26 PM, UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu wrote:



I use usbheadphone not bluethoot but When you mentioned it, I relized that
the problem disappears when I disconnect my headphone. I donwloaded the
addon and it seems to work.
thank you very much.


Gene
 

Perhaps the easiest solution, if sound card manufacturers would cooperate, would be to have one accessible command to turn all effects off. Of course, effects should be accessible, but this would solve the immediate problem and its simplicity might make it more likely that sound card manufacturers would implement it. By sound cards, I mean onboard sound cards, if that is the correct term.

Sighted people might like one command as well if one of the posts earlier in the thread applies to many sighted users.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2020 12:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information



Hi,

I think a better approach is contacting sound card manufacturers directly and explain the situation to them. Talking to synthesizer makers may or may not help, as some synths were developed by folks no longer in business or synth makers may say that this is a sound card driver problem.

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sean
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 10:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information





I agree Enes's opinion.

Manufacturers implement many different configurations for their sound cards, and this distorts the screen reader's audio, occasionally down the synthesizers's audio, etc.

Manufacturers do not offer a good UI/accessible UI for changing settings.
This makes us dependent on someone else while changing these settings.

I have friends using Lenovo and Asus.
And they do nothing but spoil the sound of NVDA.

Also, your programming for years is not an obstacle to discussing this problem.



On 05/09/2020 20:10, enes sarıbaş wrote:



Brian, out of curiousity, what sort of issues would this cause. I really despise the software enhancements that come with soundcards, and think it is laptop manufacturerers trying to make their cheap audio hardware sound good. It interfeers with naturalness of audio, and alot of sighted users have a desire to disable signal processing as well, for a purerer music listening experience. If I find I cannot disable enhancements on my next machine easily, I will pay for an external DAC that has no signal processing for unenhanced audio, as audiophiles often do.

Additionally, the issue with documentation listing specific effects is that there is no uniformness of effects in soundcard drivers iether. Realtek for example has bathroom, running water, consert effects etc.





On 9/5/2020 12:03 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:



On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 12:48 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:



But Brian, the problem remains that these enhancements mess up audio output of NVDA, especially compression effects, due to eloquence being a formant synthesizer, probably what happens is it compresses some of the phonemes at the beginning and end of utterances.



-
Then if one is using said synthesizers the synth makers should, as part of their installation documentation, tell you specifically what should be turned off. Or, better yet, have the capability of probing whether a given something is on and turning it off (or vice versa) that is applicable to its functioning.

What you propose is a solution that would create many, many other potential problems, rather than focusing the solution on the specific situation. That never makes sense. It's asking for the law of unintended consequences to come roaring in.

And if you're going to argue with me about this, don't. Having been a programmer for many, many years I know about this sort of situation all too well and I won't be changing my mind. I've always said "tool to task" and that applies as far as "specific solution to specific problem" rather than casting an overly broad net that is very likely to catch all kinds of proverbial fish that you'd rather avoid.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde





--
Sean



Email: seantolstoyevski@...
GitHub: SeanTolstoyevski



👨‍🦯 I’m programmer. I coding often Python, sometimes Go and rarely C++.


 

Hi,
That's an ideal solution, for which I think the best course of action to bring that into "solid" existence is keep sending feedback to sound card makers. Note that this "ideal" solution has nothing to do with the actual internals of the issue that led to this thread.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 10:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information

Perhaps the easiest solution, if sound card manufacturers would cooperate, would be to have one accessible command to turn all effects off. Of course, effects should be accessible, but this would solve the immediate problem and its simplicity might make it more likely that sound card manufacturers would implement it. By sound cards, I mean onboard sound cards, if that is the correct term.

Sighted people might like one command as well if one of the posts earlier in the thread applies to many sighted users.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2020 12:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information



Hi,

I think a better approach is contacting sound card manufacturers directly
and explain the situation to them. Talking to synthesizer makers may or may
not help, as some synths were developed by folks no longer in business or
synth makers may say that this is a sound card driver problem.

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sean
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 10:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information





I agree Enes's opinion.

Manufacturers implement many different configurations for their sound cards,
and this distorts the screen reader's audio, occasionally down the
synthesizers's audio, etc.

Manufacturers do not offer a good UI/accessible UI for changing settings.
This makes us dependent on someone else while changing these settings.

I have friends using Lenovo and Asus.
And they do nothing but spoil the sound of NVDA.

Also, your programming for years is not an obstacle to discussing this
problem.



On 05/09/2020 20:10, enes sarıbaş wrote:



Brian, out of curiousity, what sort of issues would this cause. I really
despise the software enhancements that come with soundcards, and think it
is laptop manufacturerers trying to make their cheap audio hardware sound
good. It interfeers with naturalness of audio, and alot of sighted users
have a desire to disable signal processing as well, for a purerer music
listening experience. If I find I cannot disable enhancements on my next
machine easily, I will pay for an external DAC that has no signal processing
for unenhanced audio, as audiophiles often do.

Additionally, the issue with documentation listing specific effects is that
there is no uniformness of effects in soundcard drivers iether. Realtek for
example has bathroom, running water, consert effects etc.





On 9/5/2020 12:03 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:



On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 12:48 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:



But Brian, the problem remains that these enhancements mess up audio output
of NVDA, especially compression effects, due to eloquence being a formant
synthesizer, probably what happens is it compresses some of the phonemes at
the beginning and end of utterances.



-
Then if one is using said synthesizers the synth makers should, as part of
their installation documentation, tell you specifically what should be
turned off. Or, better yet, have the capability of probing whether a given
something is on and turning it off (or vice versa) that is applicable to its
functioning.

What you propose is a solution that would create many, many other potential
problems, rather than focusing the solution on the specific situation. That
never makes sense. It's asking for the law of unintended consequences to
come roaring in.

And if you're going to argue with me about this, don't. Having been a
programmer for many, many years I know about this sort of situation all too
well and I won't be changing my mind. I've always said "tool to task" and
that applies as far as "specific solution to specific problem" rather than
casting an overly broad net that is very likely to catch all kinds of
proverbial fish that you'd rather avoid.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde





--
Sean



Email: seantolstoyevski@...
GitHub: SeanTolstoyevski



👨‍🦯 I’m programmer. I coding often Python, sometimes Go and rarely C++.


 

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 01:51 PM, Gene wrote:
would be to have one accessible command to turn all effects off.
-
Gene, as Joseph has indicated, the issue with the "clipping off" of first characters or the beginning of a word is virtually always related to power-saving settings where the audio device is turned off and then turned on again on demand, but doesn't "wake" quickly enough to get the very first bit of what was intended to be played.  That, however, is completely separate from audio effects a card may or may not have.

And I'm now making an official request as moderator, which if not honored, will result in this topic being locked:  We're done talking about audio effects here, as they are not the root cause of the issue that this topic originated with.  They're also not consistent across cards, nor are their default states.  While those can have an impact on how NVDA, or any audio might be played, that's really a completely separate issue from NVDA itself (or anything that's feeding audio to the card itself).

All conversation about audio effects, specifically, needs to be moved to the Chat Subgroup or dropped.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 


Richard Wells
 

I wouldn't want a screen reader messing with my sound settings at all. If this is added, please do a check box to disable it for those who don't want it.

On 9/5/2020 11:40 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

This will require a close collaboration with sound card manufacturers and driver providers so an API set can be created to control this behavior.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 9:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information

 

Hello Joseph,

What I think would be extremely useful, is if microsoft added a screen reader flag or something that automatically would disable all enhancements for audio cards. Often I have read on many laptops that the control panels for disabling these aren't usually accessible. NVDA then could have an option to disable them when the screen reader is enabled.

On 9/5/2020 11:28 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Specifically, this and some related fixes are going through testing phase at the moment.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information

 

This is due to enhancements, and computer putting audio card to sleep. Stable NVDA will enclude a fix for this, but until then there are programs etc to download to stop this behavior.

On 8/30/2020 2:26 PM, UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu wrote:

I use usbheadphone  not bluethoot but When you mentioned it, I relized that the problem disappears when I disconnect my headphone. I donwloaded the addon and it seems to work. 
thank you very much.  


 

Hmmm I wouldn't agree with this.

For one thing the reason manufacturers add these enhancements in is so they can go cheap on the speakers.

On my aunt's new hp laptop, with enhancements speech sucks unless at full volume.

Without them the sound is so tinny and bad it sounds like someone with a cold.

With my workstation with enhancements things sound overdriven.

Without them, its fine, however a few remain active unless yyou revert back to the ms drivers.

With the ms drivers the sound is to powerfull for speakers.

I have got used to things, but not every laptop has 2 kilowatt speakers in it.

After this I switched back to my old toshiba and was quite happy I had brought this new workstation a couple years back sound is a big improvement.

As for the system control panels.

Sooner or later you will be using universal audio.

If the intel universal app is anything to go off, while bits still do not work the interfaces are web based.

With a lot of the control panels you can get buy with the mouse tracking and ocr.

At any rate none of this will happen.



On 6/09/2020 4:30 am, enes sarıbaş wrote:

Hello Joseph,

What I think would be extremely useful, is if microsoft added a screen reader flag or something that automatically would disable all enhancements for audio cards. Often I have read on many laptops that the control panels for disabling these aren't usually accessible. NVDA then could have an option to disable them when the screen reader is enabled.

On 9/5/2020 11:28 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Specifically, this and some related fixes are going through testing phase at the moment.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information

 

This is due to enhancements, and computer putting audio card to sleep. Stable NVDA will enclude a fix for this, but until then there are programs etc to download to stop this behavior.

On 8/30/2020 2:26 PM, UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu wrote:

I use usbheadphone  not bluethoot but When you mentioned it, I relized that the problem disappears when I disconnect my headphone. I donwloaded the addon and it seems to work. 
thank you very much.  


 

I have contacted realtech about some sound issues, and have never got a responce.

So you can forget that idea.

I think the real problem started years ago when someone decided to intergrate the soundcard with the display chip in my opinion.

I think that was 2014 or there about.

In fact the real issue probably started in 2000 when soundcards were onboard soundcards and you didn't have room for physical speakers and analog controlers but no one is going back on either of those concepts.



On 6/09/2020 5:34 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

I think a better approach is contacting sound card manufacturers directly and explain the situation to them. Talking to synthesizer makers may or may not help, as some synths were developed by folks no longer in business or synth makers may say that this is a sound card driver problem.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sean
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 10:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda doesn't speak first few characters of information

 

I agree Enes's opinion.

Manufacturers implement many different configurations for their sound cards, and this distorts the screen reader's audio, occasionally down the synthesizers's audio, etc.

Manufacturers do not offer a good UI/accessible UI for changing settings.
This makes us dependent on someone else while changing these settings.

I have friends using Lenovo and Asus.
And they do nothing but spoil the sound of NVDA.

Also, your programming for years is not an obstacle to discussing this problem.

On 05/09/2020 20:10, enes sarıbaş wrote:

Brian, out of curiousity, what sort of issues would this cause. I really despise the software enhancements  that come with soundcards, and think it is laptop manufacturerers trying to make their cheap audio hardware sound good. It interfeers with naturalness of audio, and alot of sighted users have a desire to disable signal processing as well, for a purerer music listening experience. If I find I cannot disable enhancements on my next machine easily, I will pay for an external DAC that has no signal processing for unenhanced audio, as audiophiles often do.

Additionally, the issue with documentation listing specific effects is that there is  no uniformness of effects in soundcard drivers iether. Realtek for example has bathroom, running water, consert effects etc.

 

On 9/5/2020 12:03 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 12:48 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

But Brian, the problem remains that these enhancements mess up audio output of NVDA, especially compression effects, due to eloquence being a formant synthesizer, probably what happens is it compresses some of the phonemes at the beginning and end of utterances.

-
Then if one is using said synthesizers the synth makers should, as part of their installation documentation, tell you specifically what should be turned off.  Or, better yet, have the capability of probing whether a given something is on and turning it off (or vice versa) that is applicable to its functioning.

What you propose is a solution that would create many, many other potential problems, rather than focusing the solution on the specific situation.  That never makes sense.  It's asking for the law of unintended consequences to come roaring in.

And if you're going to argue with me about this, don't.  Having been a programmer for many, many years I know about this sort of situation all too well and I won't be changing my mind.  I've always said "tool to task" and that applies as far as "specific solution to specific problem" rather than casting an overly broad net that is very likely to catch all kinds of proverbial fish that you'd rather avoid.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 

--
Sean

👨🦯 I’m programmer. I coding often Python, sometimes Go and rarely C++.