NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination
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Bob Cavanaugh
Hi all,
This might not be worth it anymore depending on the future of System Access, but if System Access stays around, I think this should be fixed if at all possible. The problem is that if you inadvertantly or maybe even deliberately fire up System Access and NVDA at the same time, the whole system slows down to a point where it becomes almost unusable. Alt-tab doesn't work as expected, and applications that should run smoothly suddenly stop responding. The other thing that almost always happens is modifiers in NVDA quit working, making it quite hard to shut down NVDA once it is running. In my case, I still use System Access to go, and it happens to me most frequently when I've just shut down SA. This morning was a perfect example. I had System Access open in IE, and a stream open in Firefox. As I wanted to make a call on my Google Voice number, the plan was to close IE, shutting down SA, then fire up NVDA, and switch to Voice in the existing Firefox window. I closed IE, and System Access shut down as expected, or so I thought. I fired up NVDA, switched to Firefox, and went to Google Voice, though sometimes the effect is right away, such that I won't even be able to do that. Not long after, I noticed a dramatic slow down in performance. The solution is to open task manager, make sure more details are showing, and go down to background processes. System Access will still be running as a background process, which needs to be ended in order for performance to return to normal. This is just where it's most likely to happen to me, but in general, performance should not be this degraded when trying to run two screen readers. System Access and Narrator don't behave like this, nor do NVDA and Narrator. Bob
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On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 06:54 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
The problem is that if you inadvertantly or maybe even deliberately fire up System Access and NVDA at the same time, the whole system slows down to a point where it becomes almost unusable.- I'd guess that this would be the result if any two third-party screen readers are fired up at the same time. Narrator, as a built-in component of Windows 10 (and 8.1), is likely sui generis in terms of the resources allocated to it that isolate it from another screen reader. Just like I tell my clients you should never, ever, ever run two antivirus programs/security suites at the same time on the same machine, I say the same with regard to screen readers. Unload one before you load another. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Gene
Farther down in the message, it is stated that Bob did unload System Access but it was still running in the background. Also, running two screen-readers simultaneously, which may be done accidentally, doesn't usually slow system performance. You have the inconvenience of two screen-readers speaking simultaneously, but not the kind of slowdown described.
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The original post is unclear because first itt talks about running both at the same time while describing an incident when System Access was unloaded but continues to run. But System Accessw is going to be discontinued soon so I don't know if there would be any interest in fixing this as an update. The problem is mainly System Access, since it may continue to run in the background when it should be completely stopped when the user stops it. I think this is a problem that should be reported to them. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2020 6:22 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 06:54 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote: The problem is that if you inadvertantly or maybe even deliberately fire up System Access and NVDA at the same time, the whole system slows down to a point where it becomes almost unusable.- I'd guess that this would be the result if any two third-party screen readers are fired up at the same time. Narrator, as a built-in component of Windows 10 (and 8.1), is likely sui generis in terms of the resources allocated to it that isolate it from another screen reader. Just like I tell my clients you should never, ever, ever run two antivirus programs/security suites at the same time on the same machine, I say the same with regard to screen readers. Unload one before you load another. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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g melconian
That’s true.that’s one good thing about narrator and if something is sluggish with nvda or jaws an if you fire up narrator, narrator will detect an tell you that a second screenreader is running and to turn it off in order to make use of narrator.i think that other screen readers should learn from this concept and add this useful feature into their screen readers as well.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2020 4:22 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination
On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 06:54 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 07:29 PM, Gene wrote:
System Access was unloaded but continues to run.- Which, just for clarity on my side, means it wasn't unloaded. I use the term "unloaded," or "exited," to mean the program is not active/running in either the foreground or background. I also agree that it is unlikely that any screen reader is going to go to any effort to fix performance degradation that only occurs if or when you have another screen reader running with it concurrently. It's entirely reasonable to expect that, at any given moment, a screen reader, not multiple screen readers, will be running. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 07:30 PM, g melconian wrote:
add this useful feature [if another screen reader is running, force it to exit before moving further into starting] into their screen readers as well.- Though I don't disagree, per se, there are trade offs and dangers to this approach. I personally think that folks should be trained or train themselves to shut down one screen reader before starting another. There are things I want the user of specific types of software to have to do themselves, mostly because it promotes awareness on a number of levels. I guess it's a matter of preference, really. But I've observed over the decades that making lots of things occur "automagically" tends to result in complete obliviousness as to how things work or what one might do when something inevitably goes wrong and requires end user intervention. Knowing where the sweet spot lies between entirely manual in all respects (yuk) or fully automatic is not a simple thing, and opinions of where that spot is will differ. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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g melconian
Do agree with you bryan.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2020 4:40 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination
On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 07:30 PM, g melconian wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Gene
But if you unload a screen-reader, the process should not be running. If this is consistent behavior and it happens on other machines, it is an error in how System Access is designed. If it was going to be around longer, they might correct it but I think it is being withdrawn at the end of the year.
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2020 6:34 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 07:29 PM, Gene wrote: System Access was unloaded but continues to run.- Which, just for clarity on my side, means it wasn't unloaded. I use the term "unloaded," or "exited," to mean the program is not active/running in either the foreground or background. I also agree that it is unlikely that any screen reader is going to go to any effort to fix performance degradation that only occurs if or when you have another screen reader running with it concurrently. It's entirely reasonable to expect that, at any given moment, a screen reader, not multiple screen readers, will be running. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 07:46 PM, Gene wrote:
But if you unload a screen-reader, the process should not be running.- Agreed. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Gene
While I don't particularly have an opinion about general behavior
when you run a screen-reader while another is running, here is a
case where a screen-reader should shut down another one. If you
are installing a new screen-reader, even if it has a talking
installer, you would want your current screen-reader running when
you run the installer. If it isn't running, you would be unaware
of any error messages or anything you need to respond to such as
Windows can't verify the installer and being asked if you want to
run it. Then the currently running screen-reader should be shut
down by the installer.
If you want to install a version of NVDA by running the installer and a different version of NVDA is already running, my recollection is that the installer shuts down the currently running version before the talking installer is active.
Gene
On 12/9/2020 6:39 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 07:30 PM, g melconian wrote:
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On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 07:57 PM, Gene wrote:
If you want to install a version of NVDA by running the installer and a different version of NVDA is already running, my recollection is that the installer shuts down the currently running version before the talking installer is active.- Very common behavior for programs that allow what I call "install over installs," and these days that's most of them. I don't want any program shutting down a running instance of something that's not an earlier version of itself, ever. An arrangement where something bows out when it detects something it would conflict with, sure, e.g. Windows Security will shut itself down when another Security Suite signals it's being installed, but that's it. I wouldn't want one to be able to kill the other. That way lies a lot of potential madness, and is a security nightmare. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Blaster
I switch between SA and NVDA with no issues. I'm sure a reboot solved
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any conflicts with no permanent problems. HTH, Blaster
On 12/9/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
While I don't particularly have an opinion about general behavior when
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Fresh Start
II use NVDA, System Access and JAWS but never run them at the same time.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2020 6:46 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination But if you unload a screen-reader, the process should not be running. If this is consistent behavior and it happens on other machines, it is an error in how System Access is designed. If it was going to be around longer, they might correct it but I think it is being withdrawn at the end of the year. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2020 6:34 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 07:29 PM, Gene wrote: System Access was unloaded but continues to run.- Which, just for clarity on my side, means it wasn't unloaded. I use the term "unloaded," or "exited," to mean the program is not active/running in either the foreground or background. I also agree that it is unlikely that any screen reader is going to go to any effort to fix performance degradation that only occurs if or when you have another screen reader running with it concurrently. It's entirely reasonable to expect that, at any given moment, a screen reader, not multiple screen readers, will be running. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Bob Cavanaugh
Let me respond to everyone in one message, since there were several messages on this topic. I generally do not run to screen readers at once, simply because of the fact that it would get very annoying at times. However, I occasionally run into a situation where I suspect one screen reader is not reading some thing correctly, so I will switch over to the other to see if it reads things differently.System Access shuts down NVDA when it is loaded, and that is fine. The problem described only happens about once a week, and from what I understand it’s a problem having to do with running it on 10 Let me respond to everyone in one message, since there were several messages on this topic. I generally do not run to screen readers at once, simply because of the fact that it would get very annoying at times. However, I occasionally run into a situation where I suspect one screen reader is not reading some thing correctly, so I will switch over to the other to see if it reads things differently.
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On Dec 9, 2020, at 5:55 PM, Fresh Start <dan@jvillefreshstart.org> wrote:
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JM Casey
That’s odd, I have never seen that prompt from narrator. Note that I never would normally have two screen-readers running at the same time, but there are times when JFW or NVDA will appear to lock up and starting Narrator will at least result in a bit of access. Maybe enough o go into task maanger or issue a “taskkill” to get rid of the stuck screen-reader process.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of g melconian
Sent: December 9, 2020 07:30 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination
That’s true.that’s one good thing about narrator and if something is sluggish with nvda or jaws an if you fire up narrator, narrator will detect an tell you that a second screenreader is running and to turn it off in order to make use of narrator.i think that other screen readers should learn from this concept and add this useful feature into their screen readers as well.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 06:54 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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JM Casey
Hey Bob.
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Clearly there is something wrong with System Access if the process wont' stop even if it is supposed to be unloaded. If you are having trouble using task manager during the system slowdown, you can kill the process using the taskkill command. You shouldn't need to open a command prompt to do this. Open run box with windows + r and try typing: Taskkill /f /im systemaccess.exe Note that I don't know the name of the system access executable, so you can just substitute systemaccess.exe for whatever it really is. This will normally force anything to close quickly and efficiently.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh Sent: December 9, 2020 06:54 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] NVDA snd System Access, not a good combination Hi all, This might not be worth it anymore depending on the future of System Access, but if System Access stays around, I think this should be fixed if at all possible. The problem is that if you inadvertantly or maybe even deliberately fire up System Access and NVDA at the same time, the whole system slows down to a point where it becomes almost unusable. Alt-tab doesn't work as expected, and applications that should run smoothly suddenly stop responding. The other thing that almost always happens is modifiers in NVDA quit working, making it quite hard to shut down NVDA once it is running. In my case, I still use System Access to go, and it happens to me most frequently when I've just shut down SA. This morning was a perfect example. I had System Access open in IE, and a stream open in Firefox. As I wanted to make a call on my Google Voice number, the plan was to close IE, shutting down SA, then fire up NVDA, and switch to Voice in the existing Firefox window. I closed IE, and System Access shut down as expected, or so I thought. I fired up NVDA, switched to Firefox, and went to Google Voice, though sometimes the effect is right away, such that I won't even be able to do that. Not long after, I noticed a dramatic slow down in performance. The solution is to open task manager, make sure more details are showing, and go down to background processes. System Access will still be running as a background process, which needs to be ended in order for performance to return to normal. This is just where it's most likely to happen to me, but in general, performance should not be this degraded when trying to run two screen readers. System Access and Narrator don't behave like this, nor do NVDA and Narrator. Bob
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Richard Wells
This problem is not at all limited to System Access. I have seen
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multiple situations where I shut down JAWS and the process remained running. NVDA does it as well, but not as often. Though System Access development is stopping at the end of the year, it will continue to be around for a while. It is the only screen access program that will automatically shut down any other screen reader that is running, including JAWS, NVDA and Narrator. I too also train those I help to shut down any screen reader before starting another, even with this System Access feature.
On 12/9/2020 6:46 PM, Gene wrote:
But if you unload a screen-reader, the process should not be running.
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