Date
1 - 20 of 32
NVDA with Win10 or Win11?
|
David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
Hello NVDA,
Opinions please. I have done some online reading comparing Windows 10 and Windows 11 for functions such as deleting files, system clean-up, and general maintenance. The upshot seems to be that Windows 11 is icon-driven when it comes to tasks selected, whereas Windows-10 is more command oriented in tasks selected. For those of you who have jumped on the Windows 11 wagon: (1) What is the command keys for choosing specific icon choices: (2) Are there any other major changes one should beware of if going to Windows 11? Off record, is there a planned date of expiration for Windows 10? Thanks in advance. I will see this in the NVDA Digest Version. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
|
|
|
Windows 10 will die in 2025. As for selections, just put the items in explorer view in details and you are back to a windows 10 like interface. I personally love it. There are some quirks, however micsosoft fixed them after a patch update. I did report those issues btw so thank God they were fixed. They were not show stoppers, just minor annoyances.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
As for nvda, I don't recall having any issues, it works very, very well w/ windows 11. I hope never to use windows 10 again actually as the experience has been wonderful. -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] NVDA with Win10 or Win11? Hello NVDA, Opinions please. I have done some online reading comparing Windows 10 and Windows 11 for functions such as deleting files, system clean-up, and general maintenance. The upshot seems to be that Windows 11 is icon-driven when it comes to tasks selected, whereas Windows-10 is more command oriented in tasks selected. For those of you who have jumped on the Windows 11 wagon: (1) What is the command keys for choosing specific icon choices: (2) Are there any other major changes one should beware of if going to Windows 11? Off record, is there a planned date of expiration for Windows 10? Thanks in advance. I will see this in the NVDA Digest Version. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
|
|
|
The differences between Windows 10 and Windows 11 are trivial on the whole, and as Sarah has already noted, you can tweak a number of the default settings that are different in Windows 11 to make it far more like Windows 10.
Anyone who is comfortable with Windows 10 is not going to feel hopelessly lost in Windows 11. The learning curve is very steep and fast, so you go to "full competence" with a baseline of Windows 10 knowledge at the start pretty darned quickly. The sunset date for Windows 10 is in January 2025, and for those who have hardware that is running Windows 10, that can actually support Windows 11, I'd suggest going to Windows 11 now. There is value in being a part of a large cohort of people who are experiencing the same thing at the same time. Issues, if any, tend to be being seen, discussed, and solved quickly and in a consistent manner. Those solutions may no longer be necessary or may change if you wait several years before "making the leap." You can see this if you search the web for "how to" make a whole bunch of tweaks under Windows 10. What was true back at Windows 1507 has often changed several times over during the progression to 22H2. It's just easier (though never without bumps) to be going with a larger group in times of change rather than waiting and being, relatively speaking, all on your lonesome a couple of years later. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. ~ Commenter Looking_in on the Washington Post, 7/10/2014 |
|
|
|
Hi all, To clarify:
Cheers, Joseph |
|
|
|
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 02:54 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Windows 10 expiration: October 2025- Correct. I'm conflating the months of the upcoming end of life for Windows 8.1 (January 2023) and Windows 10 Home & Pro (October 2025). I need to become consistent about posting these following two links, as they're definitive: Windows 10 Home and Pro Lifecycle Sheet Windows 11 Home and Pro Lifecycle Sheet-- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. ~ Commenter Looking_in on the Washington Post, 7/10/2014 |
|
|
|
Gene
This is an example of why you can't rely on what you read from
sighted users about Windows or programs. A sighted person may see a
change but to the blind user, the change may be nonexistent or
minimal.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Gene On 11/10/2022 1:54 PM, Joseph Lee
wrote:
|
|
|
|
David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
Hello NVDA,
I wish to thank Joseph, Gene, Sarah and Brian for weighing on my topic about icons in Win11 for functions versus labels, buttons, links for functions in Win10. Joseph hit the hammer on the head with regard to the post's intention. Also, it seems that it may be necessary to think about switching to Win11 during 2024 if not sooner. Thanks. To Gene, I challenge your comment about relying on advisements by sighted developers as a blind user. What is one to do as the shift toward "how to" seems to ever be moving toward the mercies of product development? My sources include: Computer Hope, here, Windows Club and MS Support articles. Thanks again. -- David C. Russell |
|
|
|
David,
Thanks for your appreciation. Now I have a request: Please use Reply to one of the messages already part of the topic you introduced when adding content. For some reason, your messages come out with capital RE at the front, minus a colon after RE, and the original title (sometimes modified). Any of these things are not typical of an email client or webmail client reply to a message, and it's causing your topics to be split, often repeatedly, as you make each reply. It seems as though you're creating these replies by hand, though I can't say that for sure. It's just a PITA to keep having to merge each of your replies back in to the original topic. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. ~ Commenter Looking_in on the Washington Post, 7/10/2014 |
|
|
|
Gene
I'm saying that if you see comments in discussions of sighted people about changes in how something displays or in some way is visually different, that doesn't necessarily mean there is any problem regarding accessibility and it doesn't mean the interface has changed as a blind person interacts with it. While it may be different, it may be minor and make little or no difference that matters.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Joseph demonstrated what I'm saying when he said that NVDA doesn't get information from the icon, but rather from what a program exposes to NVDA. So a sighted person may talk about a program being visually different or complain or commend some sort of visual change which makes no or little difference to a blind user. Gene On 11/11/2022 1:12 PM, David Russell wrote:
Hello NVDA, |
|
|
|
Gene,
I actually agree with your position overall, but I will add the proviso that it is not often when multiple visual changes occur that don't also carry over to changes for a screen reader user. Mind you, generally fully accessible ones, but if you start hearing all sorts of things that "weren't there before" it can be quite helpful to have read about what the sighted have encountered, as there are very likely to be parallels. Also, there are many times that because the sighted do take in the full screen as a unit, that they can make you aware of a change that you'd not likely stumble over if you have a "customary traversal" that doesn't quite reach where those are now in the traversal order prior to your having bailed. Joseph Lee has written, repeatedly, about what he calls information blackout that results from a screen reader only being able to have focus in one place at one time. This is very different to how visual attention works, and learning about what someone who sees is seeing can really be useful for cluing a screen reader user into something they might not otherwise know was there. It's a PITA to contantly be revisiting "the known" with a screen reader to check for changes while those of us who can see pretty much can't help but see them. They're an instant "pattern change" from what we're used to and that novelty is like a beacon in many cases. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. ~ Commenter Looking_in on the Washington Post, 7/10/2014 |
|
|
|
Gene
Perhaps the best way to respond to your comments is to say that it
is my impression that often, sighted people talk about visual
aspects of a program that have little or no effect on blind users.
I'm not talking about interface changes or new features that do, but
when I read reviews about new versions of Windows and browsers, for
example, it appears to me that a good deal of time is often used
discussing visual aspects of the program and those may have little
bearing on use of the program as a blind person.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I think reading about various changes in Windows or programs may worry blind users when in many cases, the experience of using the program will be similar when used from the keyboard with a screen-reader. Gene Gene On 11/11/2022 1:46 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Gene, |
|
|
|
Dave Grossoehme
Bryan: I'm using Thunderbird and pressing the application key and going down to reply to all. Should I be going to the bottom of the message and pressing the reply there instead. I never have had this problem before. I have used the same procedure for probably the last 10 years. I haven't changed the way this is done. Has there been something changed in the last version of TB for you to see this? Dave
On 11/11/2022 2:17 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
David, |
|
|
|
Jackie
Dave, I think he asked that of David Russell. Indeed, he addressed him
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
as David, while your first name reads Dave in your email header. Could be wrong. Have been before, will be again, probly before the day is finished. On 11/11/22, Dave Grossoehme <dave@...> wrote:
Bryan: I'm using Thunderbird and pressing the application key and going --
Jackie McBride Be a hero. Fight Scams. Learn how at www.scam911.org Also check out brightstarsweb.com & mysitesbeenhacked.com |
|
|
|
Dave Grossoehme
I agree 100% with you Bryan: The screen reader may not see the whole page or window of that screen. The naked sighted eye can see that were a screen reader will miss something. Dave
On 11/11/2022 2:46 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Gene, |
|
|
|
Hi all, I think it is helpful to know what sighted peers are saying regarding Windows 10 versus 11 - my own sources (including Windows Central and analyzing Windows Insider Program blog posts uses visual imagery to convey information); what's needed is teaching blind people about how to translate information to a form that can be understood in temrs of screen reader usage. Also, one thing that does affect screen readers: taskbar icons such as Start and program icons are now seen as UI Automation controls by NVDA. In Windows 10, taskbar icons are exposed as MSAA objects, whereas they are UIA objects in Windows 11. Among other things, this prevented mouse and touch users from interacting with taskbar icons effectively in Windows 11 (resolved as of NVDA 2022.2). The change from MSAA to UIA is due to the GUI toolkit used to code Windows 11 user interface as Windows 11 brought parts of Windows 10 and now canceled Windows 10 X interfaces. Cheers, Joseph |
|
|
|
Dave Grossoehme
Thanks for setting things on the right track. You are correct it is Dave. I thought it was better to acknowledge other then to just let it slide if I was the cause of the problem.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dave On 11/11/2022 4:02 PM, Jackie wrote:
Dave, I think he asked that of David Russell. Indeed, he addressed him |
|
|
|
On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 03:18 PM, Gene wrote:
I think reading about various changes in Windows or programs may worry blind users- And while that may be so, blind users need to learn how to interpret ALL discussions of Windows, not just those aimed at blind people. You all are a tiny minority of humanity, and most of what's written is written by sighted people for sighted people, but is quite easily "mentally translatable" with not a whole lot of effort. I do this, in reverse, translating from keyboard-shortcut-centric and screen-reader-centric language to "point and click" when I need to, and there have been plenty of instances where I have needed to. This is, and should be presumed to be, a two-way street. You (the generic you) cut yourself from myriad useful resources, and completely understandable ones, if you refuse to look at documentation, articles, etc., that are not specifically targeted to a screen reader user. This comes back to the same advice I gave when I was a therapist for individuals who suffered brain injury: "Although it may not be fair, you need to do everything you can to conform yourself as much as possible to the world at large, because the world at large is never going to conform itself to you." You really have to be able to deal with general purpose information not aimed at you. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. ~ Commenter Looking_in on the Washington Post, 7/10/2014 |
|
|
|
On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 04:14 PM, Dave Grossoehme wrote:
if I was the cause of the problem.- And you weren't. That's one of the reasons I almost always quote a brief snippet from a post from the individual I am directly replying to. In this case I had not because no other Dave/David had yet entered the picture. You came on the scene much later than the individual I was addressing, who was the originator of this topic. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. ~ Commenter Looking_in on the Washington Post, 7/10/2014 |
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
Well, I find 10 a bit awkward, but it does work and although I've not had much use of Windows 11, my computer has not got the magic chip, as far as I know all the normal keystrokes for Windows are still there. If you are a Ribbon reactionary like myself, you have to resort to keyboard shortcuts.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA with Win10 or Win11? Windows 10 will die in 2025. As for selections, just put the items in explorer view in details and you are back to a windows 10 like interface. I personally love it. There are some quirks, however micsosoft fixed them after a patch update. I did report those issues btw so thank God they were fixed. They were not show stoppers, just minor annoyances. As for nvda, I don't recall having any issues, it works very, very well w/ windows 11. I hope never to use windows 10 again actually as the experience has been wonderful. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:36 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] NVDA with Win10 or Win11? Hello NVDA, Opinions please. I have done some online reading comparing Windows 10 and Windows 11 for functions such as deleting files, system clean-up, and general maintenance. The upshot seems to be that Windows 11 is icon-driven when it comes to tasks selected, whereas Windows-10 is more command oriented in tasks selected. For those of you who have jumped on the Windows 11 wagon: (1) What is the command keys for choosing specific icon choices: (2) Are there any other major changes one should beware of if going to Windows 11? Off record, is there a planned date of expiration for Windows 10? Thanks in advance. I will see this in the NVDA Digest Version. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
Also of course, nobody is going to beat you up about using older windows, but if you do for whatever reason, you must protect your network externally, to protect the now no longer updated possible security holes.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I do find it a little odd that Win 10 is going to be unsupported so early. Many people have not yet got used to it, but as you all say, the basics of Windows is the same, its just the frills and how to achieve results that might differ, as when they went Ribbon. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA with Win10 or Win11? This is an example of why you can't rely on what you read from sighted |
|
|