Topics

locked Prepared to be banned from list, but I'll air my views anyway.


Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

Hi list.  I was quite offended by Mr. brian Module, Moderator Royal's attitude when messages about NVDA's problems with Visual Studio 2019 was discussed earlier today.  Before saying anything else, I want to remind him of two facts.

1.  The NVDA community, if we can call it that, is spread over the word, over different time zones.  It is not any of our fault if we can't see a message posted at 4 PM EST in the US, because it is for example, 4 AM here in Singapore, South-east Asia where I live, and all things being equal, I should have been still asleep, that early in the morning.

2.  Perhaps he doesn't realize that other people too belong to other lists, that messages from those lists came in between the original message and the appropriate replies.  The original message sent by Yeti also affected my interaction with NVDA and Visual Studio, so I replied instinctively, or does he forget that we humans do sometimes act on instinct?  I get the feeling that because few of us list members use Visual Studio with NVDA, he deems it unimportant and thus having the authority to sweep the concern of the minority as swiftly as he can under the proberbial carpet, uses that power afforded to him to do so.  As has been said, Mr Brian, you have the privilige of sight and can run through your mail in no time, something the rest of us can't, and so that's why we have to use NVDA in the first place.  Your action was authoritarian to say the least, and I am saying it now, out loud at the risk of being banned.  If we call this a community, if things like time difference and message intervals cannot even be allowed, let alone be tolerated, then I am prepared to be banned by this list, or any NVDA apheliated lists because i am at the end of my tether, as far as your authoritarian moderation style is concerned.  And good luck.


Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

I would tend to agree that Brian does tend to be a bit heavy handed with his moderation. Probably my turn to get banned now, but if he doesn't like criticism, that makes it even worse.

All the best

Steve

--
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
T: +44(0)1438-742286
M: +44(0)7956-334938
F: +44(0)1438-759589
E: steve@comproom.co.uk
W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jaffar Sidek
Sent: 10 February 2021 14:56
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Prepared to be banned from list, but I'll air my views anyway.

Hi list. I was quite offended by Mr. brian Module, Moderator Royal's attitude when messages about NVDA's problems with Visual Studio 2019 was discussed earlier today. Before saying anything else, I want to remind him of two facts.

1. The NVDA community, if we can call it that, is spread over the word, over different time zones. It is not any of our fault if we can't see a message posted at 4 PM EST in the US, because it is for example, 4 AM here in Singapore, South-east Asia where I live, and all things being equal, I should have been still asleep, that early in the morning.

2. Perhaps he doesn't realize that other people too belong to other lists, that messages from those lists came in between the original message and the appropriate replies. The original message sent by Yeti also affected my interaction with NVDA and Visual Studio, so I replied instinctively, or does he forget that we humans do sometimes act on instinct? I get the feeling that because few of us list members use Visual Studio with NVDA, he deems it unimportant and thus having the authority to sweep the concern of the minority as swiftly as he can under the proberbial carpet, uses that power afforded to him to do so. As has been said, Mr Brian, you have the privilige of sight and can run through your mail in no time, something the rest of us can't, and so that's why we have to use NVDA in the first place. Your action was authoritarian to say the least, and I am saying it now, out loud at the risk of being banned. If we call this a community, if things like time difference and message intervals cannot even be allowed, let alone be tolerated, then I am prepared to be banned by this list, or any NVDA apheliated lists because i am at the end of my tether, as far as your authoritarian moderation style is concerned. And good luck.


 

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 09:56 AM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
I was quite offended by Mr. brian
-
In a word:  Tough.  Being a moderator is about imposing order, not making friends.  I suggest you both take the following to heart, and cut the crap with whining about not liking the decisions I, or any other, moderator makes in public.  There is a correct venue for that, and it's by sending complaints to the owner email address:  nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io.   This topic is now locked.

List Updates: Please Read  (Sent April 11, 2020), from Nimer Jaber, Group Owner, stated:

  • This list is not a democracy.
    • A list member took liberties with questioning a moderator on a topic in public, and questioning why topics are locked. Let me be quite clear: It is not acceptable to question a moderator on list in respect of a thread being locked, or any other reason. If a thread is locked, this is not out of a desire to infringe on your rights... As participants on this list, you are bound by the Groups.io terms of service. Furthermore, you are bound by any rules that I, the list owner, along with Brian, the list moderator, and NVAccess decide to impose. Even if the rule is something you disagree with. If you disagree with it, or you cannot abide by it, please unsubscribe. This isn't to say that policies we enact will be unreasonable, however it is your choice whether you are able to follow the rules imposed by an entity when you use a service or product that entity provides.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


 

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 09:56 AM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
Perhaps he doesn't realize that other people too belong to other lists, that messages from those lists came in between the original message and the appropriate replies.
-
This needs to be addressed directly.  That's precisely the reason that the following is included in the group rules, sent out to every new subscriber, and in the monthly reminder message:

In order to make your experience, and those of all other members, as pleasant as they can be, we ask members to follow these practices:

1.  Use threaded or conversation view in your e-mail client program or webmail and reading through the entirety of a topic before replying.  It gets you completely up to speed and avoids a lot of repetition.  If you choose not to use threaded/conversation view, please take the time to read through all messages from the group that are in your inbox prior to adding any reply to the group.  It’s the only way you can be sure you’re up to speed on any topic when not using threaded/conversation view.

2.  Reading through all new topics before replying, as topics have a tendency to get split upon occasion and often an answer ends up being in a separate topic.

---------
Any member who is unwilling or unable to do this is now on notice, again, that it is an expectation of ALL group members ALL the time.

If you cannot, or will not, the previous message quoting the list owner gives clear direction about what you should do.



 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Tony Malykh
 

This is Tony, the  author of many NVDA add-ons and occasional contributor to NVDA core.

I would like to join Jaffar Sidek and express my discontent with Brian Vogel's  moderation policy of this list. While I was not involved in said discussion, I've had arguments with Brian before, and I  disagree with his moderation policy.
Brian, I know this message violates half of your rules, but you locked the previous thread, and you don't allow any other ways of expressing opinions, so you leave me no other choice to speak up.
Brian, your moderation style is hurting this community. Instead of letting people talk to each other to solve their accessibility issues you lock threads under excuses that they violate rules that you yourself imposed. You give warnings to people left and right for missing some other email on the list. In general your moderation policy creates an atmosphere of fear instead of collaboration. People are afraid to ask and answer questions.
My previous attempts of communicating this privately to you led nowhere, your typical response is "I am tired of people complaining about my moderation style."
Your list of rules is incomplete - I actually read it - and it is always hard to predict which grey area topics you would think are appropriate for the list and which ones are not. My request for clarification was unanswered. And this becomes a big deal since you enforce those not-so-clear and not-so-well-defined set of rules vigorously. To us this feels like toss of a coin: we never know whether you'll consider certain topic to be violating or not.
Regarding reading all the previous emails on the thread - I personally don't see a big problem when someone didn't read another email on the thread. Brian, you are sighted, so seeing the tree of emails is much easier for you. For blind people  it is much more complicated to keep the structure of emails in the head, so try to forgive them once in a while. Moreover, some people on this list are old, and as people get older, it is harder and harder to keep tree-like structures of emails in the head. So giving out strict warnings to blind people for not being able to keep track of all the emails - seems to me ridiculously harsh policy.

The ultimate question we should ask is whether this list is better than it was before Brian started to moderate it or not. I still remember this list before Brian, and indeed there were a few off-topic threads, that were mildly annoying, but that wasn't a big deal. Now with Brian people are more scared to ask questions. People are scared to respond. All an all, if we view this mailing list as a tool for people to exchange thoughts on NVDA, solutions to problems, etc, I believe the effectiveness of this tool went down after Brian  started to moderate it.
I myself don't show up here often anymore, partly because it is no longer enjoyable. I am the author of many NVDA add-ons (such as Bluetooth Audio, BrowserNav, SentenceNav, TextNav and others)and I have contributed a few PRs to NVDA core, most notably fast browse mode. If I spent a month working on an add-on, I wish to be able to tell people about it. While Brian has never locked my threads about my add-ons, he locked a closely related thread regarding SSH accessibility, with an excuse that "less than 10% people on this list know what is SSH." So I don't have much confidence that tomorrow Brian won't lock my thread about another add-on, with a similar excuse, give me a strict warning, and tell me "he's tired of people like me."
Since it is possible that after this message I will get banned for speaking up, you guys know whom to blame if I won't be able to answer questions regarding my add-ons on this mailing list.

To all the subscribers: this thread  is likely to be locked by Brian (if it will ever go through), so feel free to reply to me privately if you feel unhappy with Brian as well.
Best regards
Tony


Mike Capelle <mcap@...>
 

This is why I would recommend subscribing to the blindtech list:
blindtech+subscribe@groups.io
We also have a chat discussion list, where you can have lengthy discussions. It is called blind-talk.
To subscribe to the blind-talk list, send a message to:
blind-talk+subscribe@groups.io
blind-talk:
Blind-talk+subscribe@groups.io
I will now exit this group.
Thanks.
Mike.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Prepared to be banned from the list as well

This is Tony, the author of many NVDA add-ons and occasional
contributor to NVDA core.

I would like to join Jaffar Sidek and express my discontent with Brian
Vogel's moderation policy of this list. While I was not involved in
said discussion, I've had arguments with Brian before, and I disagree
with his moderation policy.
Brian, I know this message violates half of your rules, but you locked
the previous thread, and you don't allow any other ways of expressing
opinions, so you leave me no other choice to speak up.
Brian, your moderation style is hurting this community. Instead of
letting people talk to each other to solve their accessibility issues
you lock threads under excuses that they violate rules that you yourself
imposed. You give warnings to people left and right for missing some
other email on the list. In general your moderation policy creates an
atmosphere of fear instead of collaboration. People are afraid to ask
and answer questions.
My previous attempts of communicating this privately to you led nowhere,
your typical response is "I am tired of people complaining about my
moderation style."
Your list of rules is incomplete - I actually read it - and it is always
hard to predict which grey area topics you would think are appropriate
for the list and which ones are not. My request for clarification was
unanswered. And this becomes a big deal since you enforce those
not-so-clear and not-so-well-defined set of rules vigorously. To us this
feels like toss of a coin: we never know whether you'll consider certain
topic to be violating or not.
Regarding reading all the previous emails on the thread - I personally
don't see a big problem when someone didn't read another email on the
thread. Brian, you are sighted, so seeing the tree of emails is much
easier for you. For blind people it is much more complicated to keep
the structure of emails in the head, so try to forgive them once in a
while. Moreover, some people on this list are old, and as people get
older, it is harder and harder to keep tree-like structures of emails in
the head. So giving out strict warnings to blind people for not being
able to keep track of all the emails - seems to me ridiculously harsh
policy.

The ultimate question we should ask is whether this list is better than
it was before Brian started to moderate it or not. I still remember this
list before Brian, and indeed there were a few off-topic threads, that
were mildly annoying, but that wasn't a big deal. Now with Brian people
are more scared to ask questions. People are scared to respond. All an
all, if we view this mailing list as a tool for people to exchange
thoughts on NVDA, solutions to problems, etc, I believe the
effectiveness of this tool went down after Brian started to moderate it.
I myself don't show up here often anymore, partly because it is no
longer enjoyable. I am the author of many NVDA add-ons (such as
Bluetooth Audio, BrowserNav, SentenceNav, TextNav and others)and I have
contributed a few PRs to NVDA core, most notably fast browse mode. If I
spent a month working on an add-on, I wish to be able to tell people
about it. While Brian has never locked my threads about my add-ons, he
locked a closely related thread regarding SSH accessibility, with an
excuse that "less than 10% people on this list know what is SSH." So I
don't have much confidence that tomorrow Brian won't lock my thread
about another add-on, with a similar excuse, give me a strict warning,
and tell me "he's tired of people like me."
Since it is possible that after this message I will get banned for
speaking up, you guys know whom to blame if I won't be able to answer
questions regarding my add-ons on this mailing list.

To all the subscribers: this thread is likely to be locked by Brian (if
it will ever go through), so feel free to reply to me privately if you
feel unhappy with Brian as well.
Best regards
Tony


Ali Savas
 

Hello all,

I would like to keep this very short. I haven't followed all the
discussions here, so I can't judge Brian's behavior.

However, if this is supposed to be a list from users for users, all
questions should be allowed here that is related to NVDA, no matter how
technical it gets or not. In Germany we also have mailing lists where
all kinds of topics are discussed and nobody complains about it, even if
it is mainly about a major product.

So if nobody knows what SSH is, they just don't read it and that's it.
The main thing is that the topic has something to do with NVDA and SSH.

Ali


 
Edited

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 12:28 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:
I would like to join Jaffar Sidek and express my discontent with Brian Vogel's  moderation policy of this list.
-
And, as a long term member, you know very well that I have stated, repeatedly, that complaints about moderation are not going to be tolerated on the forum in public.  The group owner has stated the same:

List Updates: Please Read  (Sent April 11, 2020), from Nimer Jaber, Group Owner, stated:

  • This list is not a democracy.
    • A list member took liberties with questioning a moderator on a topic in public, and questioning why topics are locked. Let me be quite clear: It is not acceptable to question a moderator on list in respect of a thread being locked, or any other reason. If a thread is locked, this is not out of a desire to infringe on your rights... As participants on this list, you are bound by the Groups.io terms of service. Furthermore, you are bound by any rules that I, the list owner, along with Brian, the list moderator, and NVAccess decide to impose. Even if the rule is something you disagree with. If you disagree with it, or you cannot abide by it, please unsubscribe. This isn't to say that policies we enact will be unreasonable, however it is your choice whether you are able to follow the rules imposed by an entity when you use a service or product that entity provides.

The above is not up for negotiation.  If these sorts of topics continue, I will put members starting them on moderated status, and feel no compunction for doing so.  If you have issues with moderation, whether here, or on other Groups.io groups, the appropriate way to express those is by writing to the group owner, using the email address Groups.io provides, and making your case.

This topic is now locked.  And I am stating, unequivocally, that anyone who starts another one in public will be instantly put on moderated status.  That's the convention and that's the rule expressed in the Admin Notice quoted above. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel