problem reading mail


 

Actually what really gets my goat is that bar microsoft ribbons are not the industry standard.
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
We will just have to download system hacking tools to turn it off.
Issue is with windows updating itself we will have to rerun these hack tools every month.
This is not what I hoped.
Yes I can manage the ribbon for a few things but I still can't do a select all as such in explorer, replace multiple files at once without a tedious copy past op hitting alt y or space a bunch of times, etc.
I have managed to load the right sequences in office I need to do my job which is to say update office and check for mail in outlook but I can't say I have mastered ribbons either.
Its why I am still on win7 and will while I have a legal coppy continue.
Ofcause if ms doesn't improve, I will have to decide if I continue to stay legal and get an older computer with win7 or not.
Or simply get a win10 computer for the net, and a win7 or heck windows xp system so I can do everything else that doesn't need me to be online.
I was hoping ms would realise that ribbons are just what it thinks they have not caught on like they thought.
And I think we should have theo ption to run ribbons in office and windows or just menus as normal.

On 17/02/2017 6:28 a.m., Ron Canazzi wrote:
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you
liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only
useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If you are
willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.

Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
but the full installer for the old version is available from
individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list members
have it as well.

Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
<quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess







 

Gene,

          I just tried the restart system, followed by firing up NVDA 2017.RC1, fire up WLM 2012 and got a behavior that was different than I did the last time (or at least what I recall because I got no announcement of "pane" and I absolutely know I did previously.

This time NVDA announced the WLM 2012 splash screen, the main window opened and NVDA said "English, US" and nothing else and there appeared to be no NVDA focus on anything.  When I then hit a single tab it placed me on the reading pane for the message in the inbox that was shown as having focus and began reading it from top to bottom.  If I shift+tabbed back to the inbox message list I had focus on the message in the inbox.

The last time I did this I might have fired up WLM 2012 before NVDA, so that's the next attempt.  But whatever I did I know that when I hit tab to go to the inbox the NVDA add-on that shows you what it's got focus on had a red square around the whole inbox area and announced "pane."  How to make that recur again is the question.

Since I'm not an actual NVDA user from a "this is how I access my computer" perspective my entry points into NVDA and individual programs probably differ between invocations of NVDA, the programs, or both much more than someone who has a "keyboard routine" might - though that's pure speculation on my part.

--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



 

No one said that blind people don't use ribbons but I can't say I get any joy out of using them, or what microsoft sees, unless I am totally dumb just about every program I have granted some of them are old have not any ribbons at all.

On 17/02/2017 5:42 a.m., Gene wrote:
It's not a question of bait. You didn't say clearly that you were expressing your opinion. You didn't indicate that many people are using the later version. If you had said something like, I don't use the later version because I don't like ribbons, that would have been one thing. If you had said that many blind people use the program but you don't for this or that reason, that would have been a fair statement. But your statement could far too easily be misinterpreted as saying that the later version is unuseable. If you make such ambiguous statements, then I comment on them because you are writing in such a way that many people may interpret what you say as a general statement that the program is unuseable. Just saying the phrase "to me" and then saying that a program is unuseable because it has ribbons is too easy to be misinterpreted unless you are more clear in your explanation of what you mean.

And while many blind people don't like ribbons, many blind people use ribbons regularly and use the new version of the program.

I don't care which version people use. I care about statements that are easily misinterpreted and that may cause people considering what program and version to use to believe that a program is unuseable when that is far from the case.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an uncommon
view amongst blind users of windows.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you liked
because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only useable one. The
later version is perfectly useable. If you are willing to use ribbons, it
is just as useable as the old version.

Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer but
the full installer for the old version is available from individuals who
have it. I have it and I expect other list members have it as well.

Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in Windows 7
and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the 20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess






 

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of 

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

 

I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of 

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004

 


Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Brian

I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I updated to rc1.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I
had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference.
Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this
change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox







Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Brian V,
 
I am using wlm 2012 and I didn’t make any changes to my setup.  It worked fine in nvda 2016.4.
 
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

Gary,

          Are you using WLM 2012?   Do you have the reading pane turned on or off?

          I have just had an instance where I started up WLM 2012 (and I have the reading pane turned on) where when I tabbed to the inbox list I got nothing but "pane" when it first landed on it and the focus was actually shown as on the whole pane itself rather than a message in the inbox  Once I tabbed then Shift+tabbed things went back to normal.

          I have not, as yet, been able to replicate that "entry behavior" when I shut down WLM 2012 and restart it.  I have not restarted my machine to see if that has anything to do with the "pane" announcement.

          It's a PITA when you encounter stuff like this but can't figure out how to "force the issue" again.  Developers can't fix something they can't make happen so that they can figure out why it's happening.  If you've experienced a pattern with when this happens that would be useful to know.
--
Brian

   I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004

 


Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi All,

I thought that hijacking someone eslses message thread was poor e mail edicate? My message had nothing to do with ribbins.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian

I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I
updated to rc1.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I
had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference.
Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this
change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox







 

Gary,

        Does the issue you described "resolve itself" somewhat like it did in my case?  I'm just wondering if this is an annoyance that it's possible to get past and it doesn't recur again or can you make it happen each and every time you start up WLM 2012 or regain focus on the window?

        I'm not doubting that it doesn't occur, but if it can't be replicated then it can't be addressed.

P.S.  Thread drift happens.  It appears that the usual looping back to the original topic is occurring, too.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Gene
 

first, have you checked to make sure skim reading is still enabled?  The update may have incorrectly changed the setting.
 
If the command is still correct, you may wish to read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said earlier.  this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that it might do what you are describing.  That raises the possibility that the problem might be addressed by the developers.  It looks to me as though it is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if skim reading is enabled.  Here is the description from the manual, which I just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All, rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a message.  What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to move up a line when you can't.  NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking and starts to read from the current line. 
 
While I understand why this worked in older versions, since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea if the developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works correctly in general.  My suggestion of using the read to end command should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what is expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command is incorrectly implemented in a later version.  And if it is, the developers would be expected to address the problem. 
 
I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not, in any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would quickly get used to the new command.  
 
It's better to use correct commands in general.  Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior.  I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed.  Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message.  I don't use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping.  But I can tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working with.  If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.
 
You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message before issuing the command. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line.  In rc1 this no longer works.  Thanks
for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?  Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


 




 

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.

On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.


Gene
 

Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. 
 
Gene
----- original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>







Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

 

I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. 

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>






Gene
 

Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section.  I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons. 
 
Gene
----- original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi, Gene,

 

I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. 

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>






Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

 

Sometimes buying a tutorial is helpful--especially if you don't have anybody to show you what to do. There is a course about word processing that Hadley School teaches. Not only do you learn about the ribbon but you learn everything else about word processing.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section.  I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons. 

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi, Gene,

 

I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. 

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>





 

I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though.
And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface.
I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works.

On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote:
Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.

Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi, Gene,



I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.



Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.








Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I can't think of a place where you could go for formal training.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though.
And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface.
I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works.



On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote:
Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.

Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi, Gene,



I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.



Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.








Gene
 

Earlier today, Brian gave a link to download his tutorial.  It is:
 
The link to download mine is:
You may want to look at both. 
 
One thing that is worth mentioning, even though this is an NV
DA list ist that JAWS used to have, and may still have, a butg that causes many of the short cut sequences which are called something like  key tips, in ribbons, not to be announced when you tab to them.  NVDA doesn't have this problem.  In JAWS, if these are not announced, use the command JAWS key tab to hear information including the key tip for the item you are on.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though.
And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can
get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface.
I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would
be nice to know how it all works.



On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote:
> Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section.  I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.
>
> Gene
> ----- original Message -----
>
> From: Rosemarie Chavarria
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> Hi, Gene,
>
>
>
> I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- original Message -----
>
> From: Rosemarie Chavarria
>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
> Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
> If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.
>
>
>
> On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
>> Hi, Brian,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>>
>> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>>
>> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>>
>> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>>
>> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>>
>> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>>
>> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Brian,
 
When I was using nvda 2016.4 and I opened an e mail I could press the up arrow key to by pass reading the subject line.  Now, when I hit the up arrow key nothing is spoken. 
Hi
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

Gary,

        Does the issue you described "resolve itself" somewhat like it did in my case?  I'm just wondering if this is an annoyance that it's possible to get past and it doesn't recur again or can you make it happen each and every time you start up WLM 2012 or regain focus on the window?

        I'm not doubting that it doesn't occur, but if it can't be replicated then it can't be addressed.

P.S.  Thread drift happens.  It appears that the usual looping back to the original topic is occurring, too.
--
Brian

   I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004