problem reading mail
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Actually what really gets my goat is that bar microsoft ribbons are not the industry standard.
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Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons. We will just have to download system hacking tools to turn it off. Issue is with windows updating itself we will have to rerun these hack tools every month. This is not what I hoped. Yes I can manage the ribbon for a few things but I still can't do a select all as such in explorer, replace multiple files at once without a tedious copy past op hitting alt y or space a bunch of times, etc. I have managed to load the right sequences in office I need to do my job which is to say update office and check for mail in outlook but I can't say I have mastered ribbons either. Its why I am still on win7 and will while I have a legal coppy continue. Ofcause if ms doesn't improve, I will have to decide if I continue to stay legal and get an older computer with win7 or not. Or simply get a win10 computer for the net, and a win7 or heck windows xp system so I can do everything else that doesn't need me to be online. I was hoping ms would realise that ribbons are just what it thinks they have not caught on like they thought. And I think we should have theo ption to run ribbons in office and windows or just menus as normal.
On 17/02/2017 6:28 a.m., Ron Canazzi wrote:
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
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Gene, I just tried the restart system, followed by firing up NVDA 2017.RC1, fire up WLM 2012 and got a behavior that was different than I did the last time (or at least what I recall because I got no announcement of "pane" and I absolutely know I did previously. This time NVDA announced the WLM 2012 splash screen, the main window opened and NVDA said "English, US" and nothing else and there appeared to be no NVDA focus on anything. When I then hit a single tab it placed me on the reading pane for the message in the inbox that was shown as having focus and began reading it from top to bottom. If I shift+tabbed back to the inbox message list I had focus on the message in the inbox. The last time I did this I might have fired up WLM 2012 before NVDA, so that's the next attempt. But whatever I did I know that when I hit tab to go to the inbox the NVDA add-on that shows you what it's got focus on had a red square around the whole inbox area and announced "pane." How to make that recur again is the question. Since I'm not an actual NVDA user from a "this is how I access my computer" perspective my entry points into NVDA and individual programs probably differ between invocations of NVDA, the programs, or both much more than someone who has a "keyboard routine" might - though that's pure speculation on my part. -- I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way. ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004
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No one said that blind people don't use ribbons but I can't say I get any joy out of using them, or what microsoft sees, unless I am totally dumb just about every program I have granted some of them are old have not any ribbons at all.
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On 17/02/2017 5:42 a.m., Gene wrote:
It's not a question of bait. You didn't say clearly that you were expressing your opinion. You didn't indicate that many people are using the later version. If you had said something like, I don't use the later version because I don't like ribbons, that would have been one thing. If you had said that many blind people use the program but you don't for this or that reason, that would have been a fair statement. But your statement could far too easily be misinterpreted as saying that the later version is unuseable. If you make such ambiguous statements, then I comment on them because you are writing in such a way that many people may interpret what you say as a general statement that the program is unuseable. Just saying the phrase "to me" and then saying that a program is unuseable because it has ribbons is too easy to be misinterpreted unless you are more clear in your explanation of what you mean.
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On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons. Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc. None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on. I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible. I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market. I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way. ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004
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Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi, Brian,
I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc. None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on. I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible. I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market. I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way. ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004
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Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
Hi Brian
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I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I updated to rc1.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference. Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this change. Anyone? Does not seem to affect Outlook express. Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi Brian,
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Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
Hi Brian V,
I am using wlm 2012 and I didn’t make any changes to my setup. It
worked fine in nvda 2016.4.
From: Brian
Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Gary, Are you using WLM 2012? Do you have the reading pane turned on or off? I have just had an instance where I started up WLM 2012 (and I have the reading pane turned on) where when I tabbed to the inbox list I got nothing but "pane" when it first landed on it and the focus was actually shown as on the whole pane itself rather than a message in the inbox Once I tabbed then Shift+tabbed things went back to normal. I have not, as yet, been able to replicate that "entry behavior" when I shut down WLM 2012 and restart it. I have not restarted my machine to see if that has anything to do with the "pane" announcement. It's a PITA when you
encounter stuff like this but can't figure out how to "force the issue"
again. Developers can't fix something they can't make happen so that they
can figure out why it's happening. If you've experienced a pattern with
when this happens that would be useful to know. I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way. ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004
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Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
Hi All,
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I thought that hijacking someone eslses message thread was poor e mail edicate? My message had nothing to do with ribbins.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Metzler Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:49 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi Brian I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I updated to rc1. -----Original Message----- From: Brian's Mail list account Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference. Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this change. Anyone? Does not seem to affect Outlook express. Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi Brian,
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Gary, Does the issue you described "resolve itself" somewhat like it did in my case? I'm just wondering if this is an annoyance that it's possible to get past and it doesn't recur again or can you make it happen each and every time you start up WLM 2012 or regain focus on the window? I'm not doubting that it doesn't occur, but if it can't be replicated then it can't be addressed. P.S. Thread drift happens. It appears that the usual looping back to the original topic is occurring, too. I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way. ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004
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Gene
first, have you checked to make sure skim reading
is still enabled? The update may have incorrectly changed the
setting.
If the command is still correct, you may wish to
read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to
find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said
earlier. this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that
it might do what you are describing. That raises the possibility that the
problem might be addressed by the developers. It looks to me as though it
is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if
skim reading is enabled. Here is the description from the manual, which I
just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick
navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All,
rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your
e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a
message. What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to
move up a line when you can't. NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking
and starts to read from the current line.
While I understand why this worked in older versions,
since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea
if the developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works
correctly in general. My suggestion of using the read to end command
should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what
is expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command
is incorrectly implemented in a later version. And if it is, the
developers would be expected to address the problem.
I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set
NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not,
in any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would
quickly get used to the new command.
It's better to use correct commands in general.
Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in
this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.
Gene
----- Original Message ----- Whether it used to work or not, that isn't
documented or expected behavior. I have no idea if this might be restored
or why the behavior has changed. Simply issue the usual read to end
command when you open a message. I don't use thunderbird and I can't
comment on this behavior stopping. But I can tell you that when I was
learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got
message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read,
was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working
with. If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard
layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing
something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.
You may have to experiment to see how long to wait
after opening a message before issuing the command.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help. -----Original Message----- From: Brian's Mail list account Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows 10, it seldom works verywell. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi All, I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
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Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
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If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.
On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,
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Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi,
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The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day. If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it. On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: Hi, Brian,
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Gene
Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons
and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.
Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions
or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want
to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.
Gene
----- original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon. -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day. If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it. On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: > Hi, Brian, > > > > I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing. > > > > Rosemarie > > > > > > > > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail > > > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote: > > Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons. > > Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of > > And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc. > > None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on. > > I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible. > > I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market. >
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Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi, Gene,
I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.
Gene ----- original Message ----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi,
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Gene
Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the
book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons
section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section
concerning ribbons.
Gene
----- original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi, Gene,
I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.
Gene ----- original Message ----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi,
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Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi, Gene,
Sometimes buying a tutorial is helpful--especially if you don't have anybody to show you what to do. There is a course about word processing that Hadley School teaches. Not only do you learn about the ribbon but you learn everything else about word processing.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:24 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.
Gene ----- original Message ----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi, Gene,
I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.
Gene ----- original Message ----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi,
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I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface. I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works.
On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote:
Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.
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Rosemarie Chavarria
I can't think of a place where you could go for formal training.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:37 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though. And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface. I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works. On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote: Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.
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Gene
Earlier today, Brian gave a link to download his
tutorial. It is:
The link to download mine is:
You may want to look at both.
One thing that is worth mentioning, even though
this is an NV
DA list ist that JAWS used to have, and may still have, a butg that causes many of the short cut sequences which are called something like key tips, in ribbons, not to be announced when you tab to them. NVDA doesn't have this problem. In JAWS, if these are not announced, use the command JAWS key tab to hear information including the key tip for the item you are on. Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface. I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works. On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote: > Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons. > > Gene > ----- original Message ----- > > From: Rosemarie Chavarria > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail > > > Hi, Gene, > > > > I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad. > > > > Rosemarie > > > > > > > > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail > > > > Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. > > > > Gene > > ----- original Message ----- > > From: Rosemarie Chavarria > > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM > > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > > Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail > > > > Hi, > > The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail > > Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day. > If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it. > > > > On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: >> Hi, Brian, >> >> >> >> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing. >> >> >> >> Rosemarie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel >> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io >> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote: >> >> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons. >> >> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of >> >> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc. >> >> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on. >> >> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible. >> >> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market. >> > > > > > > > > >
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Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
Hi Brian,
When I was using nvda 2016.4 and I opened an e mail I could press the up
arrow key to by pass reading the subject line. Now, when I hit the up
arrow key nothing is spoken.
Hi
From: Brian
Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Gary, Does the issue you described "resolve itself" somewhat like it did in my case? I'm just wondering if this is an annoyance that it's possible to get past and it doesn't recur again or can you make it happen each and every time you start up WLM 2012 or regain focus on the window? I'm not doubting that it doesn't occur, but if it can't be replicated then it can't be addressed. P.S. Thread drift happens. It appears that the usual looping back
to the original topic is occurring, too. I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way. ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004
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