|
Back stage view is definitely off.
On 2/17/2017 1:46 PM, Gene wrote:
When you just press tab, you end up in the last ribbon you
were working with. Which is why, when I instruct people, I tell
them to use the proper letter so we always start in the same
place. If you say that alt h places you in a different part of
the home tab, I don't know why. There may be some sort of
design problem with ribbons in certain versions of Microsoft
Office. But those are not inherent faults in ribbons. When I
use ribbons in Wordpad or Windows Live Mail or Microsoft Word
Starter, I always start in exactly the same place when I use alt
h. What I'm saying is that it sounds as though you are blaming
ribbons for something that is actually bad design in this or
that program. And also, I don't know if back stage view has
anything to do with this, Is back stage view on or off?
gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
OK, here goes with examples.
I am told to press alt + H for the home tab. When I land on
it, sometimes I land on a different tab than the clipboard tab.
It can be anywhere other than that or back on clipboard tab.
When I press the alt key by itself, sometimes I wind up on the
home tab and sometimes on the file tab.
That's just for starters. It gets weirder when I get into the
tabs in Excel. Sometimes items I want to choose in the insert
tab aren't there or don't operate properly.
The shortcuts provided by people from other lists usually work,
but even those sometimes delay and lock up speech.
I am using Windows Explorer and Excel for examples and NVDA and
JAWS for screen readers.
On 2/17/2017 10:05 AM, Gene wrote:
At this point, I am extremely skeptical. It is irrational
behavior and I strongly suspect there is some other
explanation for what people are reporting.
When I go through ribbons, combinations of keys are
announced to get to the item or take an action such as short
cuts in a menu. They always work just as they always work in
menus. If something sounds completely illogical, considerable
skepticism is in order.
I've used ribbons in Word 10 starter, Windows Live Mail and
wordpad. I have never observed such behavior and I've never
seen this allegation regarding inconsistency on the three
lists I follow dealing with Windows one way or another.
If someone can furnish definite examples and if those
examples are replicable by others, I'll consider such
evidence. otherwise, the sheer irrationality of the proposal
causes me to be extremely skeptical.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact
same position as they would in traditional pull down menus.
This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been
told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's
why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only
sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with
ribbons in complex programs.
On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the
list. And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because
that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to
everyone. I do believe that for the majority or most users,
if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult
to use.
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again,
if desired. The essence of working with ribbons is that you
open the ribbon bar with alt. You left or right arrow to
the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu.
Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence
of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most
simple introductory framework.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has
said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and
I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other
'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to
answer me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced
to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who
use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other
than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the
older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as
still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still
alludes
most blind people.
On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what
is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting
'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only
one you
> liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than
the only
> useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If
you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old
version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old
version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available
from
> individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other
list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to
work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not
for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a
number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was
the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have
removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto
the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm
loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files
that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not
begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very
helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email
any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting
'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.
I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I
had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same
messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is
experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down
exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm
as my mail client. It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the
up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message. Now, I have to
hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message. Also I hear the word pane is this
the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with
NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana
boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
When you just press tab, you end up in the last
ribbon you were working with. Which is why, when I instruct people, I tell
them to use the proper letter so we always start in the same place. If you
say that alt h places you in a different part of the home tab, I don't know
why. There may be some sort of design problem with ribbons in certain
versions of Microsoft Office. But those are not inherent faults in
ribbons. When I use ribbons in Wordpad or Windows Live Mail or Microsoft
Word Starter, I always start in exactly the same place when I use alt h.
What I'm saying is that it sounds as though you are blaming ribbons for
something that is actually bad design in this or that program. And also, I
don't know if back stage view has anything to do with this, Is back stage
view on or off?
gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
OK, here goes with examples.
I am told to press alt + H for the home tab. When I land on it,
sometimes I land on a different tab than the clipboard tab. It can be
anywhere other than that or back on clipboard tab.
When I press the alt key by itself, sometimes I wind up on the home tab and
sometimes on the file tab.
That's just for starters. It gets weirder when I get into the tabs in
Excel. Sometimes items I want to choose in the insert tab aren't there or don't
operate properly.
The shortcuts provided by people from other lists usually work, but even
those sometimes delay and lock up speech.
I am using Windows Explorer and Excel for examples and NVDA and JAWS for
screen readers.
On 2/17/2017 10:05 AM, Gene wrote:
At this point, I am extremely skeptical. It is irrational behavior
and I strongly suspect there is some other explanation for what people are
reporting.
When I go through ribbons, combinations of keys are announced to get to
the item or take an action such as short cuts in a menu. They always
work just as they always work in menus. If something sounds completely
illogical, considerable skepticism is in order.
I've used ribbons in Word 10 starter, Windows Live Mail and
wordpad. I have never observed such behavior and I've never seen this
allegation regarding inconsistency on the three lists I follow dealing with
Windows one way or another.
If someone can furnish definite examples and if those examples are
replicable by others, I'll consider such evidence. otherwise, the sheer
irrationality of the proposal causes me to be extremely skeptical.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position
as they would in traditional pull down menus. This is what I have not
only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who
teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the
only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in
complex programs.
On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list.
And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket
generalization that may not apply to everyone. I do believe that for
the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be
difficult to use.
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if
desired. The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the
ribbon bar with alt. You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to
use as you do when moving to a menu. Then instead of up or down
arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of
understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory
framework.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has
said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I
ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on
the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer
me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced
to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.
None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other
than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately
some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for
save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex
programs still alludes
most blind people.
On 2/16/2017
11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to
your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst
blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via
blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian
Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message
----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday,
February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading
mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one.
You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons.
That is different than the only
> useable one. The later
version is perfectly useable. If you are
> willing to use
ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft
doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but
the full installer for the old version is available from
>
individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version
that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well
for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original
Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent:
Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda]
problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows
Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions
knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old
style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
>
download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over
tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support
for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook
express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc
displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20
Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very
helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any
more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via
blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian
Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message
----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday,
February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading
mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must
admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a
look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the
message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read,
but most time (even on the same messages), it read
fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone
else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone
can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read
automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary
Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>>
wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I
just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client.
It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow
key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message. Now, I
have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will
be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary
kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
--
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material
Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA
E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>>
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>
Twitter:
@NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They
ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee
on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!" --
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
OK, here goes with examples.
I am told to press alt + H for the home tab. When I land on it,
sometimes I land on a different tab than the clipboard tab. It
can be anywhere other than that or back on clipboard tab.
When I press the alt key by itself, sometimes I wind up on the
home tab and sometimes on the file tab.
That's just for starters. It gets weirder when I get into the
tabs in Excel. Sometimes items I want to choose in the insert tab
aren't there or don't operate properly.
The shortcuts provided by people from other lists usually work,
but even those sometimes delay and lock up speech.
I am using Windows Explorer and Excel for examples and NVDA and
JAWS for screen readers.
On 2/17/2017 10:05 AM, Gene wrote:
At this point, I am extremely skeptical. It is irrational
behavior and I strongly suspect there is some other explanation
for what people are reporting.
When I go through ribbons, combinations of keys are announced
to get to the item or take an action such as short cuts in a
menu. They always work just as they always work in menus. If
something sounds completely illogical, considerable skepticism
is in order.
I've used ribbons in Word 10 starter, Windows Live Mail and
wordpad. I have never observed such behavior and I've never
seen this allegation regarding inconsistency on the three lists
I follow dealing with Windows one way or another.
If someone can furnish definite examples and if those
examples are replicable by others, I'll consider such evidence.
otherwise, the sheer irrationality of the proposal causes me to
be extremely skeptical.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact
same position as they would in traditional pull down menus.
This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been
told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's
why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure
way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons
in complex programs.
On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the
list. And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because
that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to
everyone. I do believe that for the majority or most users,
if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to
use.
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if
desired. The essence of working with ribbons is that you open
the ribbon bar with alt. You left or right arrow to the
ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu. Then
instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of
understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple
introductory framework.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has
said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I
ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get
on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to
answer me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to
use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who
use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than
memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the
older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as
still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still
alludes
most blind people.
On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is
not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting
'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only
one you
> liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the
only
> useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If
you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old
version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version
any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available
from
> individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list
members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to
work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for
others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a
number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the
version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed
as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto
the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm
loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that
emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not
begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any
more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting
'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I
just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had
to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same
messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is
experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down
exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as
my mail client. It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up
arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message. Now, I have to
hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the
way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA
E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana
boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
At this point, I am extremely skeptical. It
is irrational behavior and I strongly suspect there is some other explanation
for what people are reporting.
When I go through ribbons, combinations of keys are
announced to get to the item or take an action such as short cuts in a
menu. They always work just as they always work in menus. If
something sounds completely illogical, considerable skepticism is in
order.
I've used ribbons in Word 10 starter, Windows Live
Mail and wordpad. I have never observed such behavior and I've never seen
this allegation regarding inconsistency on the three lists I follow dealing with
Windows one way or another.
If someone can furnish definite examples and if
those examples are replicable by others, I'll consider such evidence.
otherwise, the sheer irrationality of the proposal causes me to be extremely
skeptical.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as
they would in traditional pull down menus. This is what I have not only
experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach
the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only
sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex
programs.
On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list. And
I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket
generalization that may not apply to everyone. I do believe that for the
majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be
difficult to use.
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if
desired. The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon
bar with alt. You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as
you do when moving to a menu. Then instead of up or down arrowing, you
tab or shift tab.
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding
the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has
said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I
ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on
the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer
me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to
use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None
who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than
memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of
the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as
still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still
alludes
most blind people.
On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's
Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely
present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of
windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via
blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian
Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday,
February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading
mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one. You
mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons. That is
different than the only
> useable one. The later version is
perfectly useable. If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is
just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide
the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer
for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it.
I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as
well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to
work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for
others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene-----
Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29
AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda]
problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows
Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions
knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old
style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download
and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the
latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for
Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook
express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays
of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it
costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do
me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
>
Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via
blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian
Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday,
February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading
mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit
I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
>>
and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to
press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on
the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get
some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and
particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>>
and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>>
Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb
16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>>
wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I
just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client.
It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow
key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message. Now, I
have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will
be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary
kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
--
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material
Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA
E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>>
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>
Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They
ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on
a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
I use them too, but they simply aren't as easy or reliable for blind users. If you are sighted and things become rearranged in the ribbon structure, you simply skim with your eyes--a matter of less than a second or two and you find what you need. With access technology, if things get rearranged it's tab, shift + Tab, control + left/right arrow ETC. until you relocate what you need.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/16/2017 2:53 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote: No one said that blind people don't use ribbons but I can't say I get any joy out of using them, or what microsoft sees, unless I am totally dumb just about every program I have granted some of them are old have not any ribbons at all.
On 17/02/2017 5:42 a.m., Gene wrote:
It's not a question of bait. You didn't say clearly that you were expressing your opinion. You didn't indicate that many people are using the later version. If you had said something like, I don't use the later version because I don't like ribbons, that would have been one thing. If you had said that many blind people use the program but you don't for this or that reason, that would have been a fair statement. But your statement could far too easily be misinterpreted as saying that the later version is unuseable. If you make such ambiguous statements, then I comment on them because you are writing in such a way that many people may interpret what you say as a general statement that the program is unuseable. Just saying the phrase "to me" and then saying that a program is unuseable because it has ribbons is too easy to be misinterpreted unless you are more clear in your explanation of what you mean.
And while many blind people don't like ribbons, many blind people use ribbons regularly and use the new version of the program.
I don't care which version people use. I care about statements that are easily misinterpreted and that may cause people considering what program and version to use to believe that a program is unuseable when that is far from the case.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an uncommon
view amongst blind users of windows.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you liked
because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only useable one. The
later version is perfectly useable. If you are willing to use ribbons, it
is just as useable as the old version.
Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer but
the full installer for the old version is available from individuals who
have it. I have it and I expect other list members have it as well.
Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in Windows 7
and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the 20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi Gary,
I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?
Regards
Quentin.
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
wrote:
Hi All,
I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same
position as they would in traditional pull down menus. This is
what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by
those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the
short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to
keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in
complex programs.
On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the
list. And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that
is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone. I
do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are
properly taught, they will not be difficult to use.
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if
desired. The essence of working with ribbons is that you open
the ribbon bar with alt. You left or right arrow to the ribbon
you want to use as you do when moving to a menu. Then instead
of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of
understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple
introductory framework.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said
in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I
ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get
on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer
me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to
use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than
memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the
older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still
work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still
alludes
most blind people.
On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is
not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one
you
> liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the
only
> useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If you
are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old
version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version
any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list
members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work
in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for
others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a
number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the
version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as
a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the
latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm
loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that
emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not
begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any
more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I
just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had
to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages),
it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is
experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down
exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as
my mail client. It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up
arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit
the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the
way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA
E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
At this point, we don't know if you would have this
problem if you went back to an earlier version of NVDA. You should go back
and see. You could try a portable version and see if you have the same
problem while leaving the current version installed or you could uninstall the
current version and install an earlier one. But according to your message,
your problem is much more than just not being able to use the up arrow when
reading a message.
We don't know if something happened to Outlook that
is coincidentally causing the problem or if they new version is the cause.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi Gene,
After I read your message I wanted t go back and read it line by
line. I wasn’t able to do this. I had to use the alt tab keys to
change the focus so I could read your message. I don’t remember this
happeneing with nvda 2016.4.Hi
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
first, have you checked to make sure skim reading
is still enabled? The update may have incorrectly changed the
setting.
If the command is still correct, you may wish to
read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to
find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said
earlier. this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that
it might do what you are describing. That raises the possibility that the
problem might be addressed by the developers. It looks to me as though it
is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if
skim reading is enabled. Here is the description from the manual, which I
just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick
navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All,
rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your
e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a
message. What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to
move up a line when you can't. NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking
and starts to read from the current line.
While I understand why this worked in older versions,
since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea if the
developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works
correctly in general. My suggestion of using the read to end command
should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what is
expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command is
incorrectly implemented in a later version. And if it is, the developers
would be expected to address the problem.
I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set
NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not, in
any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would quickly get used to
the new command.
It's better to use correct commands in general.
Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in
this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.
Gene
----- Original
Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Whether it used to work or not, that isn't
documented or expected behavior. I have no idea if this might be restored
or why the behavior has changed. Simply issue the usual read to end
command when you open a message. I don't use thunderbird and I can't
comment on this behavior stopping. But I can tell you that when I was
learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got
message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read,
was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working
with. If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard
layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing
something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.
You may have to experiment to see how long to wait
after opening a message before issuing the command.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary
Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi Brian, When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a
message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject
line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any
help. -----Original Message----- From: Brian's Mail list
account Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM To:
nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading
mail Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you
use the older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on
windows 10, it seldom works
verywell. Brian bglists@... Sent via
blueyonder. Please address personal email
to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display
name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Metzler "
<gmtravel@...> To:
<nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13
PM Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi All, I just
updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will
be? Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary
kn4ox
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
Just to be sure. Is this live mail or Thunderbird? I have seen comments about both on this thread
I now no longer use Live mail but often the behaviour of a client is also affected by how its set up to read mail. It could well be that some subtle changes in the way html is seen is affecting any html display in the client.
Really if you can go back and forth between versions and get a problem with the latest RC release you have to raise an issue on github or at least report it on the development list, or maybe get somebody else to do it. Howwever if others cannot get the effect to show, it is entirely possible its something weird going on just on your machine, and those are often the most difficult problems to track down.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi Gene,
After I read your message I wanted t go back and read it line by line. I wasn’t able to do this. I had to use the alt tab keys to change the focus so I could read your message. I don’t remember this happeneing with nvda 2016.4.Hi
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
first, have you checked to make sure skim reading is still enabled? The update may have incorrectly changed the setting.
If the command is still correct, you may wish to read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said earlier. this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that it might do what you are describing. That raises the possibility that the problem might be addressed by the developers. It looks to me as though it is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if skim reading is enabled. Here is the description from the manual, which I just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All, rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a message. What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to move up a line when you can't. NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking and starts to read from the current line.
While I understand why this worked in older versions, since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea if the developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works correctly in general. My suggestion of using the read to end command should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what is expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command is incorrectly implemented in a later version. And if it is, the developers would be expected to address the problem.
I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not, in any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would quickly get used to the new command.
It's better to use correct commands in general. Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior. I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed. Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message. I don't use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping. But I can tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working with. If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.
You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message before issuing the command.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi Brian,
When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks
for any help.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi All,
I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
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Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
Hi Gene,
After I read your message I wanted t go back and read it line by
line. I wasn’t able to do this. I had to use the alt tab keys to
change the focus so I could read your message. I don’t remember this
happeneing with nvda 2016.4.Hi
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
first, have you checked to make sure skim reading
is still enabled? The update may have incorrectly changed the
setting.
If the command is still correct, you may wish to
read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to
find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said
earlier. this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that
it might do what you are describing. That raises the possibility that the
problem might be addressed by the developers. It looks to me as though it
is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if
skim reading is enabled. Here is the description from the manual, which I
just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick
navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All,
rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your
e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a
message. What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to
move up a line when you can't. NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking
and starts to read from the current line.
While I understand why this worked in older versions,
since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea if the
developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works
correctly in general. My suggestion of using the read to end command
should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what is
expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command is
incorrectly implemented in a later version. And if it is, the developers
would be expected to address the problem.
I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set
NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not, in
any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would quickly get used to
the new command.
It's better to use correct commands in general.
Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in
this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.
Gene
----- Original
Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Whether it used to work or not, that isn't
documented or expected behavior. I have no idea if this might be restored
or why the behavior has changed. Simply issue the usual read to end
command when you open a message. I don't use thunderbird and I can't
comment on this behavior stopping. But I can tell you that when I was
learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got
message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read,
was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working
with. If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard
layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing
something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.
You may have to experiment to see how long to wait
after opening a message before issuing the command.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary
Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi Brian, When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a
message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject
line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any
help. -----Original Message----- From: Brian's Mail list
account Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM To:
nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading
mail Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you
use the older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on
windows 10, it seldom works
verywell. Brian bglists@... Sent via
blueyonder. Please address personal email
to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display
name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Metzler "
<gmtravel@...> To:
<nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13
PM Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi All, I just
updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will
be? Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary
kn4ox
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Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
Hi Brian,
When I was using nvda 2016.4 and I opened an e mail I could press the up
arrow key to by pass reading the subject line. Now, when I hit the up
arrow key nothing is spoken.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Brian
Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Gary,
Does the issue you described
"resolve itself" somewhat like it did in my case? I'm just wondering if
this is an annoyance that it's possible to get past and it doesn't recur again
or can you make it happen each and every time you start up WLM 2012 or regain
focus on the window?
I'm not doubting that it doesn't
occur, but if it can't be replicated then it can't be addressed.
P.S. Thread drift happens. It appears that the usual looping back
to the original topic is occurring, too.
--
Brian
I don't find an
uninformed hatred a "principled position" that
I need to respect in any way.
~
Ellen
Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004
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Earlier today, Brian gave a link to download his
tutorial. It is:
The link to download mine is:
You may want to look at both.
One thing that is worth mentioning, even though
this is an NV
DA list ist that JAWS used to have, and may still have, a butg
that causes many of the short cut sequences which are called something
like key tips, in ribbons, not to be announced when you tab to them.
NVDA doesn't have this problem. In JAWS, if these are not announced, use
the command JAWS key tab to hear information including the key tip for the item
you are on.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons
though. And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I
can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface. I don't have the need
right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it
all works. On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote: > Yes, but
Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for
doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's
necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons. > >
Gene > ----- original Message ----- > > From: Rosemarie
Chavarria > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io> Subject: Re:
[nvda] problem reading mail > > > Hi,
Gene, > > > > I had bought the book because at that time
I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate
the ribbon in wordpad. > > > >
Rosemarie > > > > > > > > From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene > Sent: Thursday, February
16, 2017 4:32 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io> Subject: Re:
[nvda] problem reading mail > > > > Brian sent a
discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and
have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If
doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of
working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something
may well not be necessary. > > > > Gene > >
----- original Message ----- > > From: Rosemarie
Chavarria > > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22
PM > > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail > > > >
Hi, > > The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a
section about learning the ribbon. > > > > -----Original
Message----- > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss > Sent: Thursday,
February 16, 2017 3:55 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io> Subject: Re:
[nvda] problem reading mail > > Hmmm I will have to investigate in
that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the
day. > If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read
it. > > > > On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie
Chavarria wrote: >> Hi,
Brian, >> >> >> >> I think what helped me
learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille
Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the
Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with
you here. It's not about going backward but
advancing. >> >> >> >>
Rosemarie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel >> Sent:
Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io>> Subject:
Re: [nvda] problem reading mail >> >> >> >>
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote: >> >>
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have
ribbons. >> >> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much
anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively
recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that
way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as
they're being updated.of >> >> And it really doesn't matter,
one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been
the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of
Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in
Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc. >> >> None of
us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When
they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and
resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's
no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for
that matter) cut your teeth on. >> >> I also think that there
is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play
here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc.,
were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions
for "intuitive" to be possible. >> >> I recall hating the
ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already
knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click
in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great
deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I
did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no
easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the
help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every
several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is
utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is
for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product
first appeared on the
market. >> > > > > > > > > >
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I can't think of a place where you could go for formal training.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:37 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though. And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface. I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works. On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote: Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.
Gene
----- original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi, Gene,
I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.
Gene
----- original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi,
The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.
On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,
I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
|
|
|
I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though.
And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface.
I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote: Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.
Gene
----- original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi, Gene,
I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.
Gene
----- original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi,
The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.
On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,
I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
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Hi, Gene, Sometimes buying a tutorial is helpful--especially if you don't have anybody to show you what to do. There is a course about word processing that Hadley School teaches. Not only do you learn about the ribbon but you learn everything else about word processing. Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons. ----- original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi, Gene, I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad. Rosemarie Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. ----- original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi,
The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.
On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>
|
|
|
Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the
book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons
section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section
concerning ribbons.
Gene
----- original Message -----
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi,
Gene,
I had
bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7.
It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.
Rosemarie
Brian sent a discussion
of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to
the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so
doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working
with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well
not be necessary.
----- original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, February
16, 2017 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem
reading mail
Hi,
The book is mainly
about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda]
problem reading mail
Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my
wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a
book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.
On 17/02/2017 11:34
a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi,
Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the
ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also
took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there
was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not
about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
>
Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re:
[nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017
at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software
I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you
metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very
common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are
menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now
heading into Universal App interface design as they're being
updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether
ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto
standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were
introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7
functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose
the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there
are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a
decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an
interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter)
cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's
too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The
multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way
"intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be
possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning
passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my
"greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard
shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was
not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but
surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the
menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or
brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and
almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to
me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been
using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the
market.
>
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Hi, Gene, I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad. Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. ----- original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hi,
The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.
On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>
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Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons
and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.
Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions
or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want
to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.
Gene
----- original Message -----
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi, The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there
is a section about learning the ribbon. -----Original
Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday,
February 16, 2017 3:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.ioSubject: Re: [nvda]
problem reading mail Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my
wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day. If there is a
book on ribbons then I will buy and read it. On 17/02/2017 11:34
a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: > Hi,
Brian, > > > > I think what helped me learn about the
ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also
took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there
was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not
about going backward but advancing. > > > >
Rosemarie > > > > > > > > From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel > Sent: Thursday,
February 16, 2017 12:00 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io> Subject: Re:
[nvda] problem reading mail > > > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2017
at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote: > > Ie every other bit of software
I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons. > > Then you
metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very
common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are
menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now
heading into Universal App interface design as they're being
updated.of > > And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether
ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto
standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were
introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7
functions like Windows Explorer, etc. > > None of us gets to choose
the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there
are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a
decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an
interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter)
cut your teeth on. > > I also think that there is a lot of "what's
too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The
multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way
"intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be
possible. > > I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning
passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my
"greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard
shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was
not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but
surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the
menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or
brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and
almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to
me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been
using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the
market. >
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Hi,
The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day. If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it. On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: Hi, Brian,
I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
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Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: Hi, Brian,
I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
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first, have you checked to make sure skim reading
is still enabled? The update may have incorrectly changed the
setting.
If the command is still correct, you may wish to
read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to
find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said
earlier. this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that
it might do what you are describing. That raises the possibility that the
problem might be addressed by the developers. It looks to me as though it
is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if
skim reading is enabled. Here is the description from the manual, which I
just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick
navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All,
rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your
e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a
message. What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to
move up a line when you can't. NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking
and starts to read from the current line.
While I understand why this worked in older versions,
since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea
if the developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works
correctly in general. My suggestion of using the read to end command
should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what
is expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command
is incorrectly implemented in a later version. And if it is, the
developers would be expected to address the problem.
I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set
NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not,
in any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would
quickly get used to the new command.
It's better to use correct commands in general.
Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in
this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.
Gene
----- Original
Message -----
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Whether it used to work or not, that isn't
documented or expected behavior. I have no idea if this might be restored
or why the behavior has changed. Simply issue the usual read to end
command when you open a message. I don't use thunderbird and I can't
comment on this behavior stopping. But I can tell you that when I was
learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got
message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read,
was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working
with. If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard
layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing
something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.
You may have to experiment to see how long to wait
after opening a message before issuing the command.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
Hi Brian, When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message
I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1
this no longer works. Thanks for any help. -----Original
Message----- From: Brian's Mail list account Sent: Thursday, February 16,
2017 5:13 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.ioSubject: Re: [nvda]
problem reading mail Well I don't think that should happen at all. What
happens if you use the older version. I'd also advise against using a
portable version on windows 10, it seldom works verywell. Brian bglists@...Sent via
blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting
'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " < gmtravel@...> To:
< nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent:
Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM Subject: [nvda] problem reading
mail Hi All, I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using
wlm as my mail client. It used to be when I open a message I would hit
the up arrow key and nvda would start reading the message. Now, I have
to hit the key for it to read the message. Also I hear the word pane is
this the way it will be? Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary
kn4ox
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