Problem with Office and NVDA


Kelly, Kathleen
 

Hi, I am having difficulty with NVDA and Microsoft Office. Word, etc. crashes when NVDA is running. I have been told: "Screen reader software often move through website or documents by using only the keyboard, as this provides precise navigation. Hitting ‘Tab’ advances a user to the next item on a page. However, such tools extensively use the graphics hardware capability to render and can cause such behavior." Any ideas? Thanks, Kate


Monte Single
 

Hi,

 

Which version of office are you using?

Are you using a web based version such as office 365?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kelly, Kathleen
Sent: September 19, 2021 9:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA

 

Hi, I am having difficulty with NVDA and Microsoft Office. Word, etc. crashes when NVDA is running. I have been told: "Screen reader software often move through website or documents by using only the keyboard, as this provides precise navigation. Hitting ‘Tab’ advances a user to the next item on a page. However, such tools extensively use the graphics hardware capability to render and can cause such behavior." Any ideas? Thanks, Kate


Kelly, Kathleen
 

Thanks -- 365. 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Monte Single via groups.io <mrsingle@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 11:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Hi,

 

Which version of office are you using?

Are you using a web based version such as office 365?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kelly, Kathleen
Sent: September 19, 2021 9:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA

 

Hi, I am having difficulty with NVDA and Microsoft Office. Word, etc. crashes when NVDA is running. I have been told: "Screen reader software often move through website or documents by using only the keyboard, as this provides precise navigation. Hitting ‘Tab’ advances a user to the next item on a page. However, such tools extensively use the graphics hardware capability to render and can cause such behavior." Any ideas? Thanks, Kate


 

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:24 AM, Monte Single wrote:
Are you using a web based version such as office 365?
-
There is a huge difference between having a strong connection to cloud storage (and other bits), which Microsoft 365 does, and web-based.

Microsoft 365 is not web-based in any conventional sense of that term.  There is an online version of Office, which is part of Microsoft 365, but most people using Microsoft 365 are using the installed versions of the various office applications.

If the online version is what happens to be in use here, that needs to be clearly stated, as it's an entirely different animal.  It's way more akin to Google Docs.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Kelly, Kathleen
 

I am using student version downloaded from a university in the US. It is free, offered to every student enrolled. I am using a new laptop with 8RAM. Almost everything except Office, McAffee and NVDA was removed to fix the issue. It still crashed. 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel via groups.io <britechguy@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:24 AM, Monte Single wrote:
Are you using a web based version such as office 365?
-
There is a huge difference between having a strong connection to cloud storage (and other bits), which Microsoft 365 does, and web-based.

Microsoft 365 is not web-based in any conventional sense of that term.  There is an online version of Office, which is part of Microsoft 365, but most people using Microsoft 365 are using the installed versions of the various office applications.

If the online version is what happens to be in use here, that needs to be clearly stated, as it's an entirely different animal.  It's way more akin to Google Docs.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Gene
 

I hope  you weren't too inconvenienced by having almost everything removed.  I am not a tech and those who are may disagree, but this seems to me like incompetent troubleshooting.  Crash information is kept in logs.  Did those trying to figure out the problem look at the logs before doing anything else?


Also, what is the default setting for NVDA and use of UIA, I believe is the acronym.  Could this be the problem? 


Gene

On 9/19/2021 11:00 AM, Kelly, Kathleen wrote:
I am using student version downloaded from a university in the US. It is free, offered to every student enrolled. I am using a new laptop with 8RAM. Almost everything except Office, McAffee and NVDA was removed to fix the issue. It still crashed. 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel via groups.io <britechguy@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:24 AM, Monte Single wrote:
Are you using a web based version such as office 365?
-
There is a huge difference between having a strong connection to cloud storage (and other bits), which Microsoft 365 does, and web-based.

Microsoft 365 is not web-based in any conventional sense of that term.  There is an online version of Office, which is part of Microsoft 365, but most people using Microsoft 365 are using the installed versions of the various office applications.

If the online version is what happens to be in use here, that needs to be clearly stated, as it's an entirely different animal.  It's way more akin to Google Docs.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

Remove McAfee, for starters.  It would not shock me, one bit, if that fixes the problem right there.

You have never mentioned what comes back if you hit the Windows Key, type winver, and hit enter.  Knowing the Windows Version and build is a basic piece of information.  Also the make and model of the PC is a bit help.  Essentially, when seeking help on technical issues one really needs to offer the information about the ecosystem in use:
1. Make & Model of PC
2. Windows version and build
3. Version for each piece of software believed to be involved (NVDA, Word (or Office as a whole), and Windows)

I presume your Office is an installed version, as that's what most universities offer.  If it's not, then you would not be working with Word as a program, but in a web browser as a web app.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Kelly, Kathleen
 


Thanks, a Microsoft engineer was the individual who removed most of the applications, trying to narrow down the issue. The university tried to help, contacting Microsoft Premier Support -- because I have no Office 365 license (Free student download.) "Screen reader software often move through website or documents by using only the keyboard, as this provides precise navigation. Hitting ‘Tab’ advances a user to the next item on a page. However, such tools extensively use the graphics hardware capability to render and can cause such behavior." -- was actually the opinion of a Microsoft engineer who looked at the log files. Both applications worked just fine, and together, until early July... 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Gene via groups.io <gsasner@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 12:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

I hope  you weren't too inconvenienced by having almost everything removed.  I am not a tech and those who are may disagree, but this seems to me like incompetent troubleshooting.  Crash information is kept in logs.  Did those trying to figure out the problem look at the logs before doing anything else?


Also, what is the default setting for NVDA and use of UIA, I believe is the acronym.  Could this be the problem? 


Gene

On 9/19/2021 11:00 AM, Kelly, Kathleen wrote:
I am using student version downloaded from a university in the US. It is free, offered to every student enrolled. I am using a new laptop with 8RAM. Almost everything except Office, McAffee and NVDA was removed to fix the issue. It still crashed. 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel via groups.io <britechguy@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:24 AM, Monte Single wrote:
Are you using a web based version such as office 365?
-
There is a huge difference between having a strong connection to cloud storage (and other bits), which Microsoft 365 does, and web-based.

Microsoft 365 is not web-based in any conventional sense of that term.  There is an online version of Office, which is part of Microsoft 365, but most people using Microsoft 365 are using the installed versions of the various office applications.

If the online version is what happens to be in use here, that needs to be clearly stated, as it's an entirely different animal.  It's way more akin to Google Docs.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Kelly, Kathleen
 

*Please read below...


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel via groups.io <britechguy@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 12:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
Remove McAfee, for starters.  It would not shock me, one bit, if that fixes the problem right there.

You have never mentioned what comes back if you hit the Windows Key, type winver, and hit enter.  Knowing the Windows Version and build is a basic piece of information.  Also the make and model of the PC is a bit help.  Essentially, when seeking help on technical issues one really needs to offer the information about the ecosystem in use:
1. Make & Model of PC 

*Dell Inspiron 3505
Device name DESKTOP-9ECR6D3
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 3450U with Radeon Vega Mobile Gfx     2.10 GHz
Installed RAM 8.00 GB (5.89 GB usable)
System type 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch Touch support with 256 touch points

2. Windows version and build

*Edition Windows 10 Home
Version 21H1
Installed on ‎2/‎26/‎2021
OS build 19043.1237
Experience Windows Feature Experience Pack 120.2212.3530.0

3. Version for each piece of software believed to be involved (NVDA, Word (or Office as a whole), and Windows)

It affects Microsoft Word and Outlook -- which is what I use...

I presume your Office is an installed version, as that's what most universities offer.  If it's not, then you would not be working with Word as a program, but in a web browser as a web app.

*Microsoft is download -- installed on the computer. 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 12:51 PM, Kelly, Kathleen wrote:
Hitting ‘Tab’ advances a user to the next item on a page. However, such tools extensively use the graphics hardware capability to render and can cause such behavior." --
-
And, I'm sad to say, this is an engineer who does not know what he or she is talking about.  Screen readers and Office have been working together, very well, for many years now.  I haven't had a graphics hardware connected crash from a screen reader for longer than I can remember.

I really don't know exactly "where you are" as far as having stuff on your computer that you cannot or do not wish to lose.  But I'd be very strongly tempted to do a completely clean reinstall of Windows and then install the screen reader(s) and Office.

If you have issues after that, then contact the MS Disability Help Desk.

I strongly suspect that things are messed up in a very profound way from all the noodling around it sounds like has been done.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 12:59 PM, Kelly, Kathleen wrote:
*Dell Inspiron 3505
Device name DESKTOP-9ECR6D3
-
The fact that the device name includes, "DESKTOP," on a laptop unit is peculiar.

I would really suggest, at this point, that you start from scratch, and by that, I mean really from scratch, starting with a completely clean reinstall of Windows 10 (which has the added advantage of getting rid of Dell bloatware).  If you don't want to go quite that far then, at the very least do a Repair Install using a freshly downloaded copy of the ISO file.  Nuke McAfee before doing either one.  Windows Defender is top-tier software and far less likely to cause interaction issues.

Doing a Completely Clean (Re)install of Windows 10 Using Media Creation Tool to Fetch the Win10 ISO File

Doing a Completely Clean (Re)install of Windows 10 Using Media Creation Tool to Create Bootable Win10 Install Media on a USB Thumb Drive

Doing a Windows 10 Repair Install or Feature Update Using the Windows 10 ISO file


All three of the above download as docx files.  If you wish to try the Repair Install, then you would have the ISO file already if you reached the stage where you wanted to do a completely clean reinstall, so you could jump to the step after having downloaded it.

If you were to wish to do a completely clean reinstall of Windows immediately, then I'd create the bootable media directly to the USB drive using the Media Creation Tool.


 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Kenny Cheung
 

Don't think you would have to do a clean install from a flash drive. If you start typing in reset in the start menu it gives you options to do a clean install of windows.

Kenny


On 9/19/21 13:34, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 12:59 PM, Kelly, Kathleen wrote:
*Dell Inspiron 3505
Device name DESKTOP-9ECR6D3
-
The fact that the device name includes, "DESKTOP," on a laptop unit is peculiar.

I would really suggest, at this point, that you start from scratch, and by that, I mean really from scratch, starting with a completely clean reinstall of Windows 10 (which has the added advantage of getting rid of Dell bloatware).  If you don't want to go quite that far then, at the very least do a Repair Install using a freshly downloaded copy of the ISO file.  Nuke McAfee before doing either one.  Windows Defender is top-tier software and far less likely to cause interaction issues.

Doing a Completely Clean (Re)install of Windows 10 Using Media Creation Tool to Fetch the Win10 ISO File

Doing a Completely Clean (Re)install of Windows 10 Using Media Creation Tool to Create Bootable Win10 Install Media on a USB Thumb Drive

Doing a Windows 10 Repair Install or Feature Update Using the Windows 10 ISO file


All three of the above download as docx files.  If you wish to try the Repair Install, then you would have the ISO file already if you reached the stage where you wanted to do a completely clean reinstall, so you could jump to the step after having downloaded it.

If you were to wish to do a completely clean reinstall of Windows immediately, then I'd create the bootable media directly to the USB drive using the Media Creation Tool.


 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


 

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 01:37 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:
Don't think you would have to do a clean install from a flash drive. If you start typing in reset in the start menu it gives you options to do a clean install of windows.
-
You could do a Reset as well, but it is not as "clean" as either a Repair Install with the ISO nor a completely clean reinstall.

When I am trying to start with an utterly clean slate, which I am here, I suggest a repair install first, as it does a more extensive housecleaning as far as Windows goes than a Reset does, then a completely clean reinstall.

But one can try a Reset if one prefers.  In any case, getting to a "known clean" or "much cleaner" Windows install is the first order of business here.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Lukasz Golonka
 

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:34:35 -0700
"Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

Device name DESKTOP-9ECR6D3
-
The fact that the device name includes, "DESKTOP," on a laptop unit is peculiar.
Not Really. Windows 10 starts the default name of the computer,
regardless if it is a desktop or laptop, with the 'desktop' suffix for a
long time now so the only conclusion which can be drawn from this name
is that it has not been changed from the default.

--
Regards
Lukasz


 

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 02:11 PM, Lukasz Golonka wrote:
Windows 10 starts the default name of the computer,
regardless if it is a desktop or laptop, with the 'desktop' suffix for a
long time now so the only conclusion which can be drawn from this name
is that it has not been changed from the default.
-
That's a change (even if it's a long ago change).  In my day-to-day travels, setting up a completely new machine for a client only happens once every few years, so I tend t, forget what I see as default system names.  It also doesn't help, I suppose, that I always change them to something meaningful so that when they show up on a list of network connected devices, even on a different device, it's pretty obvious which device is which.

And you'd think that MS would do some "hardware type detection" when setting these default names, but . . .
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Kelly, Kathleen
 


Gaurav Singh

SUPPORT ENG

Office Core


I can provide his telephone number and email if you would like. 

I was surprised that he indicated that it was a incompatibility with NVDA because of the US ADA/WCAG law that requires digital accessibility… It would appear that it is Microsoft’s responsibility to do accessibility audits to make sure their upgrades work with screen readers…?


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel via groups.io <britechguy@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 1:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 12:51 PM, Kelly, Kathleen wrote:
Hitting ‘Tab’ advances a user to the next item on a page. However, such tools extensively use the graphics hardware capability to render and can cause such behavior." --
-
And, I'm sad to say, this is an engineer who does not know what he or she is talking about.  Screen readers and Office have been working together, very well, for many years now.  I haven't had a graphics hardware connected crash from a screen reader for longer than I can remember.

I really don't know exactly "where you are" as far as having stuff on your computer that you cannot or do not wish to lose.  But I'd be very strongly tempted to do a completely clean reinstall of Windows and then install the screen reader(s) and Office.

If you have issues after that, then contact the MS Disability Help Desk.

I strongly suspect that things are messed up in a very profound way from all the noodling around it sounds like has been done.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Kelly, Kathleen
 

Thanks, it was reset — by Microsoft. 

But the operating system was not uninstalled and reloaded…

Kate


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel via groups.io <britechguy@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 1:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 01:37 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:
Don't think you would have to do a clean install from a flash drive. If you start typing in reset in the start menu it gives you options to do a clean install of windows.
-
You could do a Reset as well, but it is not as "clean" as either a Repair Install with the ISO nor a completely clean reinstall.

When I am trying to start with an utterly clean slate, which I am here, I suggest a repair install first, as it does a more extensive housecleaning as far as Windows goes than a Reset does, then a completely clean reinstall.

But one can try a Reset if one prefers.  In any case, getting to a "known clean" or "much cleaner" Windows install is the first order of business here.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Kelly, Kathleen
 

Thanks. It is factory specification — and the only two applications I downloaded to the device was student Office 365 and NVDA. 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Lukasz Golonka via groups.io <lukasz.golonka@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2021 2:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with Office and NVDA
 
WARNING: This email originated from outside of USF. Do NOT click links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:34:35 -0700
"Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> wrote:

> > Device name DESKTOP-9ECR6D3
> -
> The fact that the device name includes, "DESKTOP," on a laptop unit is peculiar.

Not Really. Windows 10 starts the default name of the computer,
regardless if it is a desktop or laptop, with the 'desktop' suffix for a
long time now so the only conclusion which can be drawn from this name
is that it has not been changed from the default.

--
Regards
Lukasz






 

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 04:10 PM, Kelly, Kathleen wrote:
I can provide his telephone number and email if you would like. 
-
I don't need it.

Millions of people use MS-Office with Screen Readers, NVDA being among them.  While there is the odd problem here and there, they simply work together.

He is ill-informed.  Period, end of sentence.  And it would not be the first time that someone in technical support was neither technical nor supportive.  And when it comes to assistive technology, unless you're talking with someone who either uses it or specializes in assisting with it, then their advice has to be taken with a boulder of salt, not a grain, when they make assertions that are easily disproven.

If you're someone using assistive technology of any kind I'd suggest you get in touch with Microsoft Windows & Office Accessibility Support (US).  Pick your contact method from any one of the options on that page.  If your preference happens to be by phone, and you're in the USA, then (800) 936-5900.  If you are in the UK, see: UK Microsoft & Windows Accessibility Support Webpage 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.