problems with a punctuation mark


Giles Turnbull
 

Hi all, this is not a major problem, just a minor irritation!

a couple of Facebook friends of mine, probably due to something in their language settings (one friend is in Belarus), use a pair of ′ symbols instead of quote marks. NVDA reads them as "prime". An recent example was ′′book′′.

I tried adding an entry for the ′′ into the NVDA dictionary, but NVDA still reads it as "Prime prime". I selected it should be the whole word in an attempt to get it to say "quote" for the pair of prime symbols, but still no success. I tried this in the default dictionary, voice dictionary and temporary dictionary, with no success.

I wondered if I might be able to find the ′ symbol in the symbol pronunciations list, but I presume that wouldn't work because, assuming I could specify that NVDA should say "quote" instead of "prime", it would double it because two of the ′ symbols are used.

Does anybody have any suggestions why I can't change the narration of the ′′ pair via one of the dictionaries, and whether there's another way to achieve the result?

Thanks,

Giles


 

Giles,

It sounds like you're trying to define something for two single apostrophes (read prime singularly, and prime prime in a pair). 

I would try a regex match on: 
''(.*)''    [That's apostrophe apostrophe left parenthesis dot asterisk right parenthesis apostrophe apostrophe]
with the replacement string being:
quote \1 quote

and see how that works.  Do it in the default dictionary, as this regex match is not likely at all to match anything but this odd case.  If it happens to catch something else, then we can work on figuring out how to limit what it catches further.  But the combination of two successive single quote marks is almost unheard of in typical written English.  (Let's not get in to mathematical notation here, and I doubt you're using that anyway.)

It's interesting, as I've never seen anything that does two apostrophes/single quote marks as a substitution for the much more common double quote mark.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Gene
 

This may be a synthesizer problem, not a screen-reader problem. I'm not sure what you would do in that case. I get no such words when I use either E-Speak or Via Voice.


Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Giles Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 11:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

Hi all, this is not a major problem, just a minor irritation!

a couple of Facebook friends of mine, probably due to something in their language settings (one friend is in Belarus), use a pair of ′ symbols instead of quote marks. NVDA reads them as "prime". An recent example was ′′book′′.

I tried adding an entry for the ′′ into the NVDA dictionary, but NVDA still reads it as "Prime prime". I selected it should be the whole word in an attempt to get it to say "quote" for the pair of prime symbols, but still no success. I tried this in the default dictionary, voice dictionary and temporary dictionary, with no success.

I wondered if I might be able to find the ′ symbol in the symbol pronunciations list, but I presume that wouldn't work because, assuming I could specify that NVDA should say "quote" instead of "prime", it would double it because two of the ′ symbols are used.

Does anybody have any suggestions why I can't change the narration of the ′′ pair via one of the dictionaries, and whether there's another way to achieve the result?

Thanks,

Giles


 

Gene,

Just curious what you get for the following line:

''Gene''

Using OneCore I get Gene prime, which is really interesting. Particularly because I get tick (which is not unexpected) if I start going character by character from the start of the line.

It would be better, if it's not being done by some weird automation, for the originators not to use two single quotes in place of a single double quote character.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Gene
 

I'm not sure what is being used. In the one example given with the marks, if I read them character by character, I hear apostrophe, not tick. If I read the line, I don't hear anything. I tried using double apostrophes using my keyboard, announced as ticks, in Notepad, preceding and following a word and I hear tick tick, if I have punctuation set to read that sign.

So there are two questions, what is being used and what synthesizer is being used.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 5:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

Gene,

Just curious what you get for the following line:

''Gene''

Using OneCore I get Gene prime, which is really interesting. Particularly because I get tick (which is not unexpected) if I start going character by character from the start of the line.

It would be better, if it's not being done by some weird automation, for the originators not to use two single quotes in place of a single double quote character.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

~ Anton Chekhov


Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

 

I was going to mention the Tick.  Why is it pronounced Tick, when it should be Apostrophe or Single Quote? I have changed it in mine, but it’s an odd default pronunciation.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 25 March 2021 22:05
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

 

Gene,

Just curious what you get for the following line:

''Gene''

Using OneCore I get Gene prime, which is really interesting. Particularly because I get tick (which is not unexpected) if I start going character by character from the start of the line.

It would be better, if it's not being done by some weird automation, for the originators not to use two single quotes in place of a single double quote character.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 08:21 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Why is it pronounced Tick, when it should be Apostrophe or Single Quote?
-
Steve,

I could swear that this was just discussed here, but it could have been on the JAWS group.

In programming circles in particular, when going through characters, brevity is valued.  It is a lot faster to say/hear tick for either apostrophe or single quote.  It is also very common for exclamation point to be announced as bang.

It's nothing more than a design choice based on a specific jargon convention.  It really can speed things up if you do a lot of character by character checking.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


 

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:05 PM, Giles Turnbull wrote:
′′book′′
-
Giles,

         After what's been mentioned in the two parallel topics about this, I would recommend you construct your regular expression using copy and paste.  Then, after having copied an actual example in, change the word that is between the quotation characters to:  (.*)
By doing this you are insured that whatever characters they are using are what are going in to your regex, and the bit of the regex I've given above captures the actual word that's between the two.   Presuming you still want those read as quote, the replacement string:
quote \1 quote
will get that result.

I am presuming you have a default dictionary that's not nearly as whacky as mine has become as a direct result of testing all of these sorts of things and failing to consistently clean up afterward.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Giles Turnbull
 

Hi to those who have replied. I normally use SAPI5 voice Zira, and occasionally Hazel. I just tried using the eSpeak synthesiser and the result is the same.

I did wonder if it might be the fact that I have the NVDA Speech settings option for automatic language switching toggled on, but I just toggled it off and that hasn't made any difference. I've noticed this in one friend posting from Minsk in Belarus, and another in Germany. The only comparable thing I've ever encountered is when viewing Word documents written in English by somebody in Germany, when a full stop gets spoken as "punkt", which is the German full stop punctuation mark. But, like others have noted, I can't imagine why somebody would use two single apostrophes as opposed to a double quote mark.

I did try the regular expression entry that Brian suggested, with no effect. I also tried changing the tick marks in the search and replacement fields (the tick / apostrophe does not seem to be not the same as a ′ symbol since NVDA says "tick" for the apostrophe but "prime" for the symbol) ... and there is still no change to NVDA saying "prime".

My only other thought is that I've only noticed this on Facebook and I know the Belarussian friend's posts reach me via Facebook's translation service. I cannot remember whether the German case had been translated. Much in the same way that OCR can render punctuation symbols as letters, maybe it is interpretting a double quote mark as being two prime symbols .. in fact, I'd go as far as to say that's highly likely! I will make enquiries about it :)

Thanks all

Giles .


Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

dictionary that's not nearly as whacky as mine has become as a direct result of testing all of these sorts of things and failing to consistently clean up
afterward
Which is why you have a temporary dictionary. :)

But, you can always delete %appdata%\nvda\speechdicts\default.dic
(%appdata%\nvda\default.dic, %appdata%\nvda\default-en.dic, in earlier versions)

Luke


Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Steve Nutt wrote:

I was going to mention the Tick.  Why is it pronounced Tick, when it should be Apostrophe or Single Quote? I have changed it in mine, but it’s an odd
default pronunciation.
Many screen readers have traditionally done that. ESpeak, as a voice, always has. I think the old IBM screen reader did as well, and possibly some of the other DOS screen readers.

A tick, is the British/Australian English term for what we in the US call a check mark. How that became the acceptable substitute term for the apostrophe, I have no idea, except that it's shorter, as Brian said. As far as I know, the apostrophe and the checkmark have never really looked alike.

Luke


 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 06:23 PM, Luke Davis wrote:
Which is why you have a temporary dictionary. :)
-
Yeah, so I can forget all the effort I've put in, and tricks I've found, over time when "the next generation" of a question comes up again! ;-)

And that's only half in jest.  I have a much smaller default dictionary than I imagine many "daily driver" users of NVDA have, but almost all of it is regex items, many of which I slaved over.  I know darned well I'd forget 'em if I just removed 'em, and if I put them somewhere else I couldn't find 'em as quickly!
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Monte Single
 

Nol, a check mark is a check mark, it is that little mark the teacher put on your answer when it was correct.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: March 26, 2021 4:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Steve Nutt wrote:

I was going to mention the Tick. Why is it pronounced Tick, when it
should be Apostrophe or Single Quote? I have changed it in mine, but it’s an odd default pronunciation.
Many screen readers have traditionally done that. ESpeak, as a voice, always has. I think the old IBM screen reader did as well, and possibly some of the other DOS screen readers.

A tick, is the British/Australian English term for what we in the US call a check mark. How that became the acceptable substitute term for the apostrophe, I have no idea, except that it's shorter, as Brian said. As far as I know, the apostrophe and the checkmark have never really looked alike.

Luke


Steve Nutt
 

It can, but it doesn’t consider beginning users, who would be confused by it.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 26 March 2021 13:35
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 08:21 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Why is it pronounced Tick, when it should be Apostrophe or Single Quote?

-
Steve,

I could swear that this was just discussed here, but it could have been on the JAWS group.

In programming circles in particular, when going through characters, brevity is valued.  It is a lot faster to say/hear tick for either apostrophe or single quote.  It is also very common for exclamation point to be announced as bang.

It's nothing more than a design choice based on a specific jargon convention.  It really can speed things up if you do a lot of character by character checking.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Steve Nutt
 

Hi Luke,

For myself, I change it to Apostrophe, because as soon as I hear the first syllable I know what it is and can interrupt it. Tick makes no sense at all.

All the best

Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: 26 March 2021 22:46
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021, Steve Nutt wrote:

I was going to mention the Tick. Why is it pronounced Tick, when it
should be Apostrophe or Single Quote? I have changed it in mine, but it’s an odd default pronunciation.
Many screen readers have traditionally done that. ESpeak, as a voice, always has. I think the old IBM screen reader did as well, and possibly some of the other DOS screen readers.

A tick, is the British/Australian English term for what we in the US call a check mark. How that became the acceptable substitute term for the apostrophe, I have no idea, except that it's shorter, as Brian said. As far as I know, the apostrophe and the checkmark have never really looked alike.

Luke


Louise Pfau
 

Using "bang" for the exclamation mark doesn't make sense for North American users either, since it's not called that in North America. Both "Espeak NG" and "Windows OneCore" call it "Bang", and I couldn't figure out what was meant.

Louise


 

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 02:50 PM, Louise Pfau wrote:
Using "bang" for the exclamation mark doesn't make sense for North American users either, since it's not called that in North America.
-
And so does NVDA itself.  Check the punctuation settings.

While this is not "dirt common" for someone trying to describe that punctuation in an English class, or when discussing it, it is very, very common in computing circles worldwide, and has been for decades.  I first learned bang as an alternative name for exclamation point back in the very early 1980s, and not in the context of screen readers.  Brevity is important when an auditory stream is involved and, as such, hearing bang increases speed significantly.  "Bang,bang,bang," reads a heck of a lot faster than "exclamation point,exclamation point,exclamation point."

But regardless of what the "short version" of certain punctuation marks might be chosen, someone's not going to be familiar with them initially.  That's where asking comes in, along with changing if you really just can't stand it.

Another one, not discussed here and not nearly as common as either tick or bang is hook for question mark.  Same concept.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Arlene
 

Hi, I’ve seen that with windoweyes and I think they do it with Jaws if you want it to. NVDA’S had been using Bang as the exclamation mark for some time. I have Jaws say Bang just as NVDA does.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Louise Pfau
Sent: March 30, 2021 11:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

 

Using "bang" for the exclamation mark doesn't make sense for North American

users either, since it's not called that in North America.  Both "Espeak NG"

and "Windows OneCore" call it "Bang", and I couldn't figure out what was

meant.

 

Louise

 

 

 

 

 

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

It was actually easy for me to figure out. In 1994 when I was about 12 years of age I would play around with the shift numbers and memorise what the bang and at was in braille as well as i would emboss them. So for me bang means exclaim, and you would say "bang!" to mean it. Like "bang! Bang!" he's dead."

Hope that somewhat helps

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On 30 Mar 2021, at 11:50, Louise Pfau wrote:

Using "bang" for the exclamation mark doesn't make sense for North American users either, since it's not called that in North America. Both "Espeak NG" and "Windows OneCore" call it "Bang", and I couldn't figure out what was meant.

Louise