|
With Spanish you'll just have to switch back and forth, or you
could practice listening to English with a Spanish voice for
parts of the page where both languages are heavily mixed. It's not
so hard once you get used to it.
Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see
yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in
on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the
Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the
time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever
you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though,
so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols
being properly identified, of course.
On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David
Goldfield wrote:
Sharni-Lee wrote:
> I need it to read the English text
as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,
As I wrote this can only happen if the
Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code
when switching to a new language. The code is normally
hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of
text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When
writing English text a similar code needs to be entered
which tells the Web site, “the following text is in
English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching
enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.
I need it to read the English text as normal and the
Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage
in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently
do this and this could pose problems when learning. The
ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield
wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web page
the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language
attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or
displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth
language to Japanese if English is still being used as the
default or primary language.
Of course, if the synth has been set to
Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then
this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology
Specialist
NVDA
Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement
list to receive news, events and information regarding the
blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language
switching turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you
are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest, once
you're certain that automatic language switching is turned
on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a
try, if for no other reason than testing. It does support
text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version
21H2, Build 19044
The difference
between a top-flight creative man and the hack is
his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
All I can say is, hopefully AI will be able to solve this soon so
we don't have to worry about compliance. Getting them to make
sites accessible in general is hard enough lol.
Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 5:48 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 06:42 PM, Shawn wrote:
I don't think you're going to convince a website owner
to comb through his site setting the right language attributes
for each phrase in a given language on pages where more than 1
languages are present.
-
After the fact on a general purpose website, you're almost
certainly correct.
But any website that's supposed to be about language learning, if
they care about accessibility (and that, sadly, is an "if"),
should certainly be using language marking attributes correctly.
I'd expect the same for professionally published materials where
there is frequent switching between languages, at least for
recently created materials.
I once worked with a client who was using materials that were
written in English with a lot of Swedish mixed in. Nothing could
automatically read (or OCR) this correctly as there were no
language markers and, in the case of OCR, it used either English,
or Swedish, but not both for any given pass of the document.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version
21H2, Build 19044
The difference between a
top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to
express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
This topic raises an interesting question. Do any screen-readers
currently use AI to switch languages because the screen-reader
detects a language change without the need for an attribute in the
code of the page?
Gene
On 7/24/2022 4:30 PM, David Goldfield
wrote:
Sharni-Lee wrote:
> I need it to read the English text as
normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,
As I wrote this can only happen if the Web
site uses a specific language attribute in their code when
switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but
it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m
about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English
text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web
site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA
needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog,
as well.
I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese
text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the
midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this
and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker
addon used to do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield
wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web page
the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language
attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or
displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth
language to Japanese if English is still being used as the
default or primary language.
Of course, if the synth has been set to
Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this
is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
NVDA Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement
list to receive news, events and information regarding the
blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language switching
turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you
are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest, once
you're certain that automatic language switching is turned
on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a
try, if for no other reason than testing. It does support
text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows
10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
The difference
between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his
ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
As far as I’m aware screen readers don’t use AI to detect and then switch languages.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 8:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
This topic raises an interesting question. Do any screen-readers currently use AI to switch languages because the screen-reader detects a language change without the need for an attribute in the code of the
page?
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 7/24/2022 4:30 PM, David Goldfield wrote:
Sharni-Lee wrote:
> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,
As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web
site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled
in the Voices dialog, as well.
I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do
it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese
language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.
Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
NVDA
Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email:
tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason
than testing. It does support text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
But is the language attribute supposed to change if a page is mostly
in one language and parts of a page are in another language? I had
thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the language attribute occurs
near the beginning of the code on a page and that it is used once to
identify the major language of the page.
Gene
On 7/24/2022 5:00 PM, David Goldfield
wrote:
Sharni-Lee,
No problem. I would encourage you to
contact support and ask them to use the language attribute.
For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG
criterion.
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't
see yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started
in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language
for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched
80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice
clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a
non-English word though, so at least
I won't be botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the
symbols being properly identified, of course.
On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield
wrote:
Sharni-Lee wrote:
> I need it to read the English text
as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,
As I wrote this can only happen if the
Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code
when switching to a new language. The code is normally
hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of
text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When
writing English text a similar code needs to be entered
which tells the Web site, “the following text is in
English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching
enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.
I need it to read the English text as normal and the
Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage
in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently
do this and this could pose problems when learning. The
ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield
wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web page
the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language
attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or
displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth
language to Japanese if English is still being used as the
default or primary language.
Of course, if the synth has been set to
Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then
this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology
Specialist
NVDA Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement
list to receive news, events and information regarding the
blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language
switching turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you
are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest, once
you're certain that automatic language switching is turned
on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a
try, if for no other reason than testing. It does support
text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows
10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
The difference
between a top-flight creative man and the hack is
his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
It can do that, some Wikipedia articles are set up that way like
the one for Japan.
Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 7:28 PM, Gene wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
But is the language attribute supposed to change if a page is
mostly in one language and parts of a page are in another
language? I had thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the language
attribute occurs near the beginning of the code on a page and that
it is used once to identify the major language of the page.
Gene
On 7/24/2022 5:00 PM, David Goldfield
wrote:
Sharni-Lee,
No problem. I would encourage you to
contact support and ask them to use the language attribute.
For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant
WCAG criterion.
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't
see yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started
in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language
for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched
80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice
clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a
non-English word though, so at least I won't be
botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the
symbols being properly identified, of course.
On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield
wrote:
Sharni-Lee wrote:
> I need it to read the English text
as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,
As I wrote this can only happen if the
Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code
when switching to a new language. The code is normally
hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of
text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When
writing English text a similar code needs to be entered
which tells the Web site, “the following text is in
English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching
enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.
I need it to read the English text as normal and the
Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a
passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not
currently do this and this could pose problems when
learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David
Goldfield wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web
page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the
language attribute correctly. Just having the page being
written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t
switch the synth language to Japanese if English is
still being used as the default or primary language.
Of course, if the synth has been set
to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly
then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology
Specialist
NVDA Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement
list to receive news, events and information regarding
the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language
switching turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain
you are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest,
once you're certain that automatic language switching is
turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore
Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing. It
does support text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows
10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
The difference
between a top-flight creative man and the hack is
his ability to express powerful meanings
indirectly.
~ Vance
Packard
|
|
|
Hi Sharni-Lee,
Just confirming what David said, the issue sounds like it is an issue with the pages on DuoLingo not correctly tagging the change of language.
The best approach then, is to contact DuoLingo and encourage them to add Lang attributes when the language changes on pages. I have done that myself, but would encourage anyone affected or interested to do so also - the more people report things like this, the more likely it is to get fixed.
Kind regards
Quentin.
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as
the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started
learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years
ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is
accessible with NVDA.
However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of
anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading
passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or
if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I
suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting
the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker
addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there
were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.
Is there something I am missing here?
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 08:28 PM, Gene wrote:
But is the language attribute supposed to change if a page is mostly in one language and parts of a page are in another language?
- Although it is not visible, the best way to think about the language attribute is the same way you think about a font attribute. They appear in their "on form" immediately ahead of any segment not in the main document language and their "off form" after the last character of that content. Think of something like government forms where precisely the same phrase is repeated in multiple languages one after the other. If the language attribute is appropriately applied, and the user has a text-to-speech version of a given language, the screen reader should just keep reading in the language that the specific line is written in, switching as it goes along. It's essentially a way to make the screen reader do what a multi-lingual human reader does "automatically." --
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
Hello!
Vocalizer Expressive from Tiflotecnia switch automatically the
language based in the character set used...
So, in any application, whenever a japanese character is found,
the synth will change automatically to japanese... When finding a
latin character will go back to english...
Note that this is only possible between languages using different
character sets... It will not switch between english and
portuguese or between japanese and chinese...
Best regards,
Rui Fontes
Tiflotecnia, Lda.
Às 22:03 de 24/07/2022, Sharni-Lee Ward
escreveu:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese
text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst
of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this
could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to
do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David
Goldfield wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web page
the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language
attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or
displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth
language to Japanese if English is still being used as the
default or primary language.
Of course, if the synth has been set to
Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this
is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
NVDA Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement
list to receive news, events and information regarding the
blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language switching
turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you
are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest, once
you're certain that automatic language switching is turned
on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a
try, if for no other reason than testing. It does support
text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows
10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
The difference
between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his
ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i. accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese voices.
|
|
|
Okay, I will definitely look into that. But I don't think I can
set up things in that synth so I can get two languages
simultaneously either. I need to know what I'm doing as I learn.
On 26/07/2022 8:52 pm, Josh Kennedy
wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i.
accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down
to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under
language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and
installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese
voices.
|
|
|
1. This addon/those voices are paid. I did have a cracked version
once but I do not wish to do that again.
2. I hate vocalliser. The voices sound bored and flat, I
can't get any of them to pronounce things properly, and
they honestly all put me to sleep unless they're reading something
technical like a recipe book or a list of new additions to the
Vision Australia library. Beyond that, for reportedly humanlike
voices, they sound even more inhuman than Espeak NG does, and I
can max inflection on that!
On 26/07/2022 6:04 am, Rui Fontes
wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Hello!
Vocalizer Expressive from Tiflotecnia switch automatically the
language based in the character set used...
So, in any application, whenever a japanese character is found,
the synth will change automatically to japanese... When finding
a latin character will go back to english...
Note that this is only possible between languages using
different character sets... It will not switch between english
and portuguese or between japanese and chinese...
Best regards,
Rui Fontes
Tiflotecnia, Lda.
Às 22:03 de 24/07/2022, Sharni-Lee
Ward escreveu:
I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese
text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the
midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this
and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker
addon used to do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David
Goldfield wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web page
the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language
attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or
displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth
language to Japanese if English is still being used as the
default or primary language.
Of course, if the synth has been set to
Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then
this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology
Specialist
NVDA Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement
list to receive news, events and information regarding the
blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language
switching turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you
are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest, once
you're certain that automatic language switching is turned
on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a
try, if for no other reason than testing. It does support
text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows
10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
The difference
between a top-flight creative man and the hack is
his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
Weirdly, when I had to type in something in Spanish manually,
probably because I used the acute E but possibly because it
detected this field would only have Spanish in it, NVDA did do the
switch.
On 25/07/2022 8:54 am, Shawn via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
With Spanish you'll just have to switch back and forth, or you
could practice listening to English with a Spanish voice for
parts of the page where both languages are heavily mixed. It's
not so hard once you get used to it.
Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't
see yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started
in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language
for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched
80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice
clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a
non-English word though, so at least I won't be
botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the
symbols being properly identified, of course.
On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David
Goldfield wrote:
Sharni-Lee wrote:
> I need it to read the English text
as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,
As I wrote this can only happen if the
Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code
when switching to a new language. The code is normally
hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of
text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When
writing English text a similar code needs to be entered
which tells the Web site, “the following text is in
English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching
enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.
I need it to read the English text as normal and the
Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a
passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not
currently do this and this could pose problems when
learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David
Goldfield wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web
page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the
language attribute correctly. Just having the page being
written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t
switch the synth language to Japanese if English is
still being used as the default or primary language.
Of course, if the synth has been set
to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly
then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology
Specialist
NVDA
Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement
list to receive news, events and information regarding
the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language
switching turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain
you are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest,
once you're certain that automatic language switching is
turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore
Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing. It
does support text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version
21H2, Build 19044
The difference
between a top-flight creative man and the hack is
his ability to express powerful meanings
indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
|
|
|
Actually, while I'm thinking about it, how much is the
Eloquence addon? And is it a one-time payment? I know Jaws is
subscription-based now (at least, I think that's what the deal is,
and last I heard you had to pay for new updates, which I always
thought was a d*ck move), but is the Eloquence addon by itself a
one-time payment? If so, I may consider investing in it
for circumstances such as this.
On 25/07/2022 7:10 am, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Since
Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an
option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and
I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection
settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my
discerning ears.
On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's
language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work
with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless you
add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese
Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence
read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter this,
Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page about
installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth that will
work without them.
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce594a98c5f5649b9b50908da6db8ff1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942938588515646%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wI22F3s6GmKeUfXsNNEB9S%2FA9AB83M%2BZLcgwV3FZtuQ%3D&reserved=0
Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese
was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille Tables. I
want to learn Japanese (I started learning in school, then
left school, and that was a good fifteen years ago now), and
just found out the browser version of Duolingo is accessible
with NVDA.
However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a
number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese
when reading passages, instead continuing to say
"Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over it,
"Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose are it's
unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting the
addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the
ProTalker addon has not been compatible for years, though even
if it were, there were some weird pronunciation issues with
even that.
Is there something I am missing here?
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I would suggest getting the SAPI5 Eloquence version, not the
add-on. You can use the SAPI5 version with any screen-reader that
supports SAPI5 and you don't have to worry about which version of
NVDA you use it with. NVDA supports SAPI5 regardless of version.
You can try a demo to see if it does what you want. If no one gives
information soon about where to get a demo, I'll check.
Gene
On 7/26/2022 10:33 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
Actually, while I'm thinking about it, how much is the
Eloquence addon? And is it a one-time payment? I know Jaws is
subscription-based now (at least, I think that's what the deal
is, and last I heard you had to pay for new updates, which I
always thought was a d*ck move), but is the Eloquence addon by
itself a one-time payment? If so, I may consider
investing in it for circumstances such as this.
On 25/07/2022 7:10 am, Sharni-Lee
Ward wrote:
Since
Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an
option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help,
and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection
settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my
discerning ears.
On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's
language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work
with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless
you add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese
Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence
read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter
this, Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page
about installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth
that will work without them.
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce594a98c5f5649b9b50908da6db8ff1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942938588515646%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wI22F3s6GmKeUfXsNNEB9S%2FA9AB83M%2BZLcgwV3FZtuQ%3D&reserved=0
Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that
Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille
Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started learning in
school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years
ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo
is accessible with NVDA.
However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a
number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to
Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say
"Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over
it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose
are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not
reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG.
And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for
years, though even if it were, there were some weird
pronunciation issues with even that.
Is there something I am missing here?
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More likely the web designer thought of including it for edit
boxes for Spanish, but not for other places on the page. People
are funny that way. You'd think they'd be consistent, but they're
not.
Shawn Klein
On 7/26/2022 10:29 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Weirdly, when I had to type in something in Spanish manually,
probably because I used the acute E but possibly because it
detected this field would only have Spanish in it, NVDA did do
the switch.
On 25/07/2022 8:54 am, Shawn via
groups.io wrote:
With Spanish you'll just have to switch back and forth, or
you could practice listening to English with a Spanish voice
for parts of the page where both languages are heavily mixed.
It's not so hard once you get used to it.
Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee
Ward wrote:
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't
see yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started
in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language
for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched
80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice
clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a
non-English word though, so at least I won't be
botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the
symbols being properly identified, of course.
On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David
Goldfield wrote:
Sharni-Lee wrote:
> I need it to read the English
text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,
As I wrote this can only happen if
the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their
code when switching to a new language. The code is
normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this
next block of text that I’m about to write is actually
Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code
needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the
following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to
have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as
well.
I need it to read the English text as normal and the
Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a
passage in the midst of English instructions. It does
not currently do this and this could pose problems when
learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David
Goldfield wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web
page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the
language attribute correctly. Just having the page
being written or displayed in the Japanese language
won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English
is still being used as the default or primary
language.
Of course, if the synth has been
set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking
correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology
Specialist
NVDA
Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI
announcement list to receive news, events and
information regarding the blindness assistive
technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
Do you have automatic language
switching turned on in Speech settings?
Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain
you are using Espeak as your synth? I'd also suggest,
once you're certain that automatic language switching
is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft
OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than
testing. It does support text to speech.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit,
Version 21H2, Build 19044
The
difference between a top-flight creative man and
the hack is his ability to express powerful
meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
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I don't know if OneCore Japanese voices do it, but I've come
across many of these natural voices over the years that use
non-latin alphabets that will read English in the Latin alphabet,
and their native language in their native alphabet. The English
pronunciation is sometimes amazing, and sometimes terrible like
Engrish, unfortunately the Japanese ones I've heard tend toward
the terrible side. it all depends on what you really want and what
you can teach your brain to listen to, and what you can tolerate
to save yourself from constant language switching and save your
pocketbook.
Shawn Klein
On 7/26/2022 6:49 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Okay, I will definitely look into that. But I don't think I can
set up things in that synth so I can get two languages
simultaneously either. I need to know what I'm doing as I learn.
On 26/07/2022 8:52 pm, Josh Kennedy
wrote:
one core voices
do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i. accessibility in
windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down to narrator, tab
to add voices, tab to add more voices under language packs, go
select japanese and it will be downloaded and installed. restart
NVDA and then you get one core japanese voices.
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On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 12:19 PM, Shawn wrote:
People are funny that way. You'd think they'd be consistent, but they're not.
- It often comes down to, "This is what I need, so this is what I create." That part is 100% consistent, which, of course, results in inconsistent results between (and sometimes even within) projects. --
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.
~ Vance Packard
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So I just added the one core Japanese voices just for fun, there
are 2 female and one male, and they all speak Japanesified English
otherwise known as Engrish. It says odd doh instead of add, bot
toe instead of bat, and rawng ghehjeh, or rawng gheh reggie
depending on which voice you use, instead of language. Those are a
few examples. It would take some getting used to, but if it saves
you from constantly switching languages, and you want a free
option, I think you could get used to it.
Shawn Klein
On 7/26/2022 5:52 AM, Josh Kennedy
wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i.
accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down
to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under
language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and
installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese
voices.
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If I use Sapi5, doesn't that mean I can't adjust inflection? I
don't like that idea very much...
On 27/07/2022 1:40 am, Gene wrote:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I would suggest getting the SAPI5 Eloquence version, not the
add-on. You can use the SAPI5 version with any screen-reader that
supports SAPI5 and you don't have to worry about which version of
NVDA you use it with. NVDA supports SAPI5 regardless of version.
You can try a demo to see if it does what you want. If no one
gives information soon about where to get a demo, I'll check.
Gene
On 7/26/2022 10:33 AM, Sharni-Lee
Ward wrote:
Actually, while I'm thinking about it, how much is
the Eloquence addon? And is it a one-time payment? I know Jaws
is subscription-based now (at least, I think that's what the
deal is, and last I heard you had to pay for new updates,
which I always thought was a d*ck move), but is the Eloquence
addon by itself a one-time payment? If so, I may
consider investing in it for circumstances such as this.
On 25/07/2022 7:10 am, Sharni-Lee
Ward wrote:
Since Eloquence is
paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me.
I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't
want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings
(including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning
ears.
On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch
ESpeak's language to Japanese. With some synths, they just
won't work with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at
all unless you add language packs in Windows. I just opened
a Japanese Wikipedia page with the following results.
Japanese Eloquence read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read
Japanese letter this, Chinese letter that. You may want to
check out this page about installing language packs in
Windows, or find a synth that will work without them.
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce594a98c5f5649b9b50908da6db8ff1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942938588515646%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wI22F3s6GmKeUfXsNNEB9S%2FA9AB83M%2BZLcgwV3FZtuQ%3D&reserved=0
Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that
Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged
Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started
learning in school, then left school, and that was a good
fifteen years ago now), and just found out the browser
version of Duolingo is accessible with NVDA.
However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of
a number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to
Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say
"Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over
it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose
are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not
reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG.
And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for
years, though even if it were, there were some weird
pronunciation issues with even that.
Is there something I am missing here?
|
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