Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2


Shawn
 

With Spanish you'll just have to switch back and forth, or you could practice listening to English with  a Spanish voice for parts of the page where both languages are heavily mixed. It's not so hard once you get used to it.

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.


I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.


This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Shawn
 

All I can say is, hopefully AI will be able to solve this soon so we don't have to worry about compliance. Getting them to make sites accessible in general is hard enough lol.

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 5:48 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 06:42 PM, Shawn wrote:
I don't think you're going to convince a website owner to comb through his site setting the right language attributes for each phrase in a given language on pages where more than 1 languages are present.
-
After the fact on a general purpose website, you're almost certainly correct.

But any website that's supposed to be about language learning, if they care about accessibility (and that, sadly, is an "if"), should certainly be using language marking attributes correctly.  I'd expect the same for professionally published materials where there is frequent switching between languages, at least for recently created materials.

I once worked with a client who was using materials that were written in English with a lot of Swedish mixed in.  Nothing could automatically read (or OCR) this correctly as there were no language markers and, in the case of OCR, it used either English, or Swedish, but not both for any given pass of the document.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Gene
 

This topic raises an interesting question.  Do any screen-readers currently use AI to switch languages because the screen-reader detects a language change without the need for an attribute in the code of the page?

Gene

On 7/24/2022 4:30 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard



David Goldfield
 

As far as I’m aware screen readers don’t use AI to detect and then switch languages.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 8:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

This topic raises an interesting question.  Do any screen-readers currently use AI to switch languages because the screen-reader detects a language change without the need for an attribute in the code of the page?

Gene

On 7/24/2022 4:30 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Gene
 

But is the language attribute supposed to change if a page is mostly in one language and parts of a page are in another language?  I had thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the language attribute occurs near the beginning of the code on a page and that it is used once to identify the major language of the page.

Gene

On 7/24/2022 5:00 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee,

No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.

 

I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.

 

This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard



Shawn
 

It can do that, some Wikipedia articles are set up that way like the one for Japan.

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 7:28 PM, Gene wrote:

But is the language attribute supposed to change if a page is mostly in one language and parts of a page are in another language?  I had thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the language attribute occurs near the beginning of the code on a page and that it is used once to identify the major language of the page.

Gene

On 7/24/2022 5:00 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee,

No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.

 

I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.

 

This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard



Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Sharni-Lee,

Just confirming what David said, the issue sounds like it is an issue with the pages on DuoLingo not correctly tagging the change of language.

The best approach then, is to contact DuoLingo and encourage them to add Lang attributes when the language changes on pages.  I have done that myself, but would encourage anyone affected or interested to do so also - the more people report things like this, the more likely it is to get fixed.

Kind regards

Quentin.


On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 3:58 AM Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...> wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as
the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started
learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years
ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is
accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of
anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading
passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or
if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I
suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting
the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker
addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there
were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?








--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


 

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 08:28 PM, Gene wrote:
But is the language attribute supposed to change if a page is mostly in one language and parts of a page are in another language? 
-
Although it is not visible, the best way to think about the language attribute is the same way you think about a font attribute.

They appear in their "on form" immediately ahead of any segment not in the main document language and their "off form" after the last character of that content.

Think of something like government forms where precisely the same phrase is repeated in multiple languages one after the other.  If the language attribute is appropriately applied, and the user has a text-to-speech version of a given language, the screen reader should just keep reading in the language that the specific line is written in, switching as it goes along.

It's essentially a way to make the screen reader do what a multi-lingual human reader does "automatically."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Rui Fontes
 

Hello!


Vocalizer Expressive from Tiflotecnia switch automatically the language based in the character set used...

So, in any application, whenever a japanese character is found, the synth will change automatically to japanese... When finding a latin character will go back to english...

Note that this is only possible between languages using different character sets... It will not switch between english and portuguese or between japanese and chinese...


Best regards,

Rui Fontes
Tiflotecnia, Lda.
 


Às 22:03 de 24/07/2022, Sharni-Lee Ward escreveu:

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Josh Kennedy
 

one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i. accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese voices. 


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Okay, I will definitely look into that. But I don't think I can set up things in that synth so I can get two languages simultaneously either. I need to know what I'm doing as I learn.

On 26/07/2022 8:52 pm, Josh Kennedy wrote:

one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i. accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese voices. 


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

1. This addon/those voices are paid. I did have a cracked version once but I do not wish to do that again.

2. I hate vocalliser. The voices sound bored and flat, I can't get any of them to pronounce things properly, and they honestly all put me to sleep unless they're reading something technical like a recipe book or a list of new additions to the Vision Australia library. Beyond that, for reportedly humanlike voices, they sound even more inhuman than Espeak NG does, and I can max inflection on that!

On 26/07/2022 6:04 am, Rui Fontes wrote:

Hello!


Vocalizer Expressive from Tiflotecnia switch automatically the language based in the character set used...

So, in any application, whenever a japanese character is found, the synth will change automatically to japanese... When finding a latin character will go back to english...

Note that this is only possible between languages using different character sets... It will not switch between english and portuguese or between japanese and chinese...


Best regards,

Rui Fontes
Tiflotecnia, Lda.
 


Às 22:03 de 24/07/2022, Sharni-Lee Ward escreveu:

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Weirdly, when I had to type in something in Spanish manually, probably because I used the acute E but possibly because it detected this field would only have Spanish in it, NVDA did do the switch.

On 25/07/2022 8:54 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:

With Spanish you'll just have to switch back and forth, or you could practice listening to English with  a Spanish voice for parts of the page where both languages are heavily mixed. It's not so hard once you get used to it.

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.


I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.


This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Actually, while I'm thinking about it, how much is the Eloquence addon? And is it a one-time payment? I know Jaws is subscription-based now (at least, I think that's what the deal is, and last I heard you had to pay for new updates, which I always thought was a d*ck move), but is the Eloquence addon by itself a one-time payment? If so, I may consider investing in it for circumstances such as this.

On 25/07/2022 7:10 am, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Since Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning ears.

On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless you add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter this, Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page about installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth that will work without them.

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce594a98c5f5649b9b50908da6db8ff1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942938588515646%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=wI22F3s6GmKeUfXsNNEB9S%2FA9AB83M%2BZLcgwV3FZtuQ%3D&amp;reserved=0

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?

















Gene
 

I would suggest getting the SAPI5 Eloquence version, not the add-on.  You can use the SAPI5 version with any screen-reader that supports SAPI5 and you  don't have to worry about which version of NVDA you use it with.  NVDA supports SAPI5 regardless of version.

You can try a demo to see if it does what you want.  If no one gives information soon about where to get a demo, I'll check. 

Gene

On 7/26/2022 10:33 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Actually, while I'm thinking about it, how much is the Eloquence addon? And is it a one-time payment? I know Jaws is subscription-based now (at least, I think that's what the deal is, and last I heard you had to pay for new updates, which I always thought was a d*ck move), but is the Eloquence addon by itself a one-time payment? If so, I may consider investing in it for circumstances such as this.

On 25/07/2022 7:10 am, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Since Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning ears.

On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless you add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter this, Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page about installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth that will work without them.

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce594a98c5f5649b9b50908da6db8ff1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942938588515646%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=wI22F3s6GmKeUfXsNNEB9S%2FA9AB83M%2BZLcgwV3FZtuQ%3D&amp;reserved=0

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?


















Shawn
 

More likely the web designer thought of including it for edit boxes for Spanish, but not for other places on the page. People are funny that way. You'd think they'd be consistent, but they're not.

Shawn Klein

On 7/26/2022 10:29 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Weirdly, when I had to type in something in Spanish manually, probably because I used the acute E but possibly because it detected this field would only have Spanish in it, NVDA did do the switch.

On 25/07/2022 8:54 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:

With Spanish you'll just have to switch back and forth, or you could practice listening to English with  a Spanish voice for parts of the page where both languages are heavily mixed. It's not so hard once you get used to it.

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.


I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.


This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Shawn
 

I don't know if OneCore Japanese voices do it, but I've come across many of these natural voices over the years that use non-latin alphabets that will read English in the Latin alphabet, and their native language in their native alphabet. The English pronunciation is sometimes amazing, and sometimes terrible like Engrish, unfortunately the Japanese ones I've heard tend toward the terrible side. it all depends on what you really want and what you can teach your brain to listen to, and what you can tolerate to save yourself from constant language switching and save your pocketbook.

Shawn Klein

On 7/26/2022 6:49 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Okay, I will definitely look into that. But I don't think I can set up things in that synth so I can get two languages simultaneously either. I need to know what I'm doing as I learn.

On 26/07/2022 8:52 pm, Josh Kennedy wrote:
one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i. accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese voices. 


 

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 12:19 PM, Shawn wrote:
People are funny that way. You'd think they'd be consistent, but they're not.
-
It often comes down to, "This is what I need, so this is what I create."   That part is 100% consistent, which, of course, results in inconsistent results between (and sometimes even within) projects.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Shawn
 

So I just added the one core Japanese voices just for fun, there are 2 female and one male, and they all speak Japanesified English otherwise known as Engrish. It says odd doh instead of add, bot toe instead of bat, and rawng ghehjeh, or rawng gheh reggie
depending on which voice you use, instead of language. Those are a few examples. It would take some getting used to, but if it saves you from constantly switching languages, and you want a free option, I think you could get used to it.

Shawn Klein

On 7/26/2022 5:52 AM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i. accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese voices. 


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

If I use Sapi5, doesn't that mean I can't adjust inflection? I don't like that idea very much...

On 27/07/2022 1:40 am, Gene wrote:

I would suggest getting the SAPI5 Eloquence version, not the add-on.  You can use the SAPI5 version with any screen-reader that supports SAPI5 and you  don't have to worry about which version of NVDA you use it with.  NVDA supports SAPI5 regardless of version.

You can try a demo to see if it does what you want.  If no one gives information soon about where to get a demo, I'll check. 

Gene

On 7/26/2022 10:33 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Actually, while I'm thinking about it, how much is the Eloquence addon? And is it a one-time payment? I know Jaws is subscription-based now (at least, I think that's what the deal is, and last I heard you had to pay for new updates, which I always thought was a d*ck move), but is the Eloquence addon by itself a one-time payment? If so, I may consider investing in it for circumstances such as this.

On 25/07/2022 7:10 am, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Since Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning ears.

On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless you add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter this, Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page about installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth that will work without them.

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce594a98c5f5649b9b50908da6db8ff1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942938588515646%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=wI22F3s6GmKeUfXsNNEB9S%2FA9AB83M%2BZLcgwV3FZtuQ%3D&amp;reserved=0

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?