running beta of nvda
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Don H
Running the latest beta of NVDA on a Win 10 computer. Getting the error ding every time I go to a web page with Google Chrome. Also get a error ding when I close Google Chrome.
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Chris
Are you sure you are running the beta and not the alpha?
From: Don H
Sent: 28 September 2020 14:34 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] running beta of nvda
Running the latest beta of NVDA on a Win 10 computer. Getting the error ding every time I go to a web page with Google Chrome. Also get a error ding when I close Google Chrome.
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Don H
Yep running beta 2 of NVDA
On 9/28/2020 9:35 AM, Chris via
groups.io wrote:
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Hi, This behavior is intentional – beta is not really a stable build yet, so NVDA developers are interested in fixing major errors if possible, hence the debug tone. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 11:20 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] running beta of nvda
Yep running beta 2 of NVDA On 9/28/2020 9:35 AM, Chris via groups.io wrote:
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On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
This behavior is intentional – beta is not really a stable build yet, so NVDA developers are interested in fixing major errors if possible, hence the debug tone.- But, Joseph, if one is not experiencing major errors, and I am not, and this darned tone is being presented, that, in and of itself, is a bug. I've had it come up repeatedly when absolutely nothing I can detect is amiss. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one, and I'm happy to jump on to the, "this should not be occurring" bandwagon. You don't intentionally produce spurious indicators, ever. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041 It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white. ~ Kelley Boorn
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Hi, One counterexample, although not that intuitive, is desktop watermark shown on Windows Insider Preview builds; they are early beta quality builds so folks expect stability when considering small details. As for changing the debug tone, this will involve changes at the source code, code branch, and deployment level:
Another consideration is communicating errors that developers can catch – not only we get reports from users and try our best to reproduce certain issues, folks use tones as means of debugging and locating errors (whenever we hear a debug tone, we developers would open the NVDA log and read recent tracebacks). This is important as it then allows developers to either fix the issue right away or discuss strategies to do so in the future. For people relying on debug tones for debugging issues, it gives us an early warning so major bugs will not slip to stable releases – this is why when contributors file issues and pull request, if a beta cycle is active and a bug was discovered with a beta build, they are directed to send changes based on latest beta branch commit. At the moment beta branch is in a “suspended animation” – translators are committing localization updates, and unless critical issues are discovered, the next release from beta channel will be 2020.3 release candidate. As for making debug tones optional or suppressing it in beta releases, it should be something that must be taken care of from alpha channel first i.e. let’s ask NV Access via GitHub. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 11:43 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] running beta of nvda
On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041 It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white. ~ Kelley Boorn
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On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 02:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
As for making debug tones optional or suppressing it in beta releases, it should be something that must be taken care of from alpha channel first i.e. let’s ask NV Access via GitHub.- Works for me. But the production of error tones when there are no errors is, quite simply, a philosophical no-go for me. I don't care if some "benchmark tone" is used, but it should never be what would indicate an error condition under normal circumstances. And I really, really hope that the tone used is not hard-coded and could be "swapped out" during beta, and swapped back in for release, if there are "spare debug tones" that use error tones during beta. Ideally, those spare tones should use their own sound. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041 It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white. ~ Kelley Boorn
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Tyler Spivey
Maybe the solution here is to open issues for every single error we hear
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
that isn't a duplicate of something else, since these are obviously important enough to get the user's attention. You (and others who are part of the project) don't seem to understand that the sound is useless to most of us. It comes up so often that it's just background noise. Let's take some simple examples: 1. Restart with add-ons disabled, press control NVDA v, tab twice, hit escape, press control NVDA s to switch synth then hit enter. You'll most likely get: RuntimeError: wrapped C/C++ object of type BoxSizer has been deleted Does this matter to anyone? Probably not, since it's been there for a while. Next one. Switch to a synth which is an addon, then restart with add-ons disabled. You hear the startup sound, then the error sound. When you look, you find out that it's just NVDA not being able to load the synth, because addons are disabled, which is a completely expected case. But this shouldn't produce the sound. There are others, which come up when doing seemingly simple tasks. Alt tabbing just now is a perfect example of something I would not expect to fail: Could not register for UIA events for element Why is that important? If it can't register because of a COM Error, it should do something else, or tell you if you debug. Alt tabbing again, we get another error sound, this time for an unreachable wave player.
On 9/28/2020 11:32 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
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Hi,
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It is useful in alpha builds, but I do understand that it isn't so much for beta releases. The bigger problem isn't swapping debug tone - rather, instructing people as to how to spot these errors and reporting them using appropriate methods. This is the reason why whenever I get bug reports about add-ons (or in some cases, NVDA itself), I ask for a debug log offlist so it can be reproduced and reported to NV Access; in some cases I do come back and report additional findings and let folks know what will happen in a follow-up action. Perhaps the bigger issue would be teaching people about how to report bugs appropriately. It isn't enough to simply state that you are hearing descending tones. Users and developers would like to know possible steps taken to arrive at a specific problem, including what NVDA did versus what folks were expecting. Even though users might not be able to provide certain details, discussions on this list and elsewhere may provide necessary info for people to help debug and think about solutions (and in some cases, implement them). Although I do not say this a lot in public, but I feel it is time I say it: I take lack of detailed bug reports and the atmosphere behind lack of effective bug reporting instructions as a personal failure. Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler Spivey Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 12:09 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] running beta of nvda Maybe the solution here is to open issues for every single error we hear that isn't a duplicate of something else, since these are obviously important enough to get the user's attention. You (and others who are part of the project) don't seem to understand that the sound is useless to most of us. It comes up so often that it's just background noise. Let's take some simple examples: 1. Restart with add-ons disabled, press control NVDA v, tab twice, hit escape, press control NVDA s to switch synth then hit enter. You'll most likely get: RuntimeError: wrapped C/C++ object of type BoxSizer has been deleted Does this matter to anyone? Probably not, since it's been there for a while. Next one. Switch to a synth which is an addon, then restart with add-ons disabled. You hear the startup sound, then the error sound. When you look, you find out that it's just NVDA not being able to load the synth, because addons are disabled, which is a completely expected case. But this shouldn't produce the sound. There are others, which come up when doing seemingly simple tasks. Alt tabbing just now is a perfect example of something I would not expect to fail: Could not register for UIA events for element Why is that important? If it can't register because of a COM Error, it should do something else, or tell you if you debug. Alt tabbing again, we get another error sound, this time for an unreachable wave player. On 9/28/2020 11:32 AM, Joseph Lee wrote: Hi,
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Joseph,
The lack of detailed bug reporting is hardly limited to NVDA, and you know that as well as anyone. But as I've said before, and Tyler confirms in other instances (but at least where something shows up), getting error tones when there is no observable error makes it impossible for someone to even write a bug report. What would it say, "Everything worked just fine, but I got an error tone?." That's why the use of such when real errors have not actually occurred, or are at a level that the end user could never hope to document or influence, they're a terrible idea. I'd also hope that NVDA, like most modern software, includes telemetry to report "silent error" conditions. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041 It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white. ~ Kelley Boorn
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Roger Stewart
Doesn't NVDA have an automatic bug
reporting system? I thought that is why we have that checkbox
that says if you want to send info to the NVDA developers to make
it better. Thought it sent back something if an error occurs or
something but maybe it doesn't do that.
Roger
On 9/28/2020 4:58 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Joseph,
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Hi, No, it doesn’t do that, although we came so close to it a while back with Crash Hero. The checkbox in question is about data to be sent when NVDA checks for updates for the purpose of gathering statistics on synthesizers, braille displays and such. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 3:03 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] running beta of nvda
Doesn't NVDA have an automatic bug reporting system? I thought that is why we have that checkbox that says if you want to send info to the NVDA developers to make it better. Thought it sent back something if an error occurs or something but maybe it doesn't do that.
Roger
On 9/28/2020 4:58 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
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Quentin Christensen
The error sound plays when NVDA encounters an error (and that will be written to the log). In some (many?) cases, the program will pick this up, and try something else to do what it needs to do. In some cases, it is able to work around the problem, do whatever it was trying to do, and an end user wouldn't normally notice any problem. In Alpha and Beta builds, the error sound is played when that error is encountered, even if NVDA then goes on to work around it. In RC and stable builds, the error sound is suppressed. If you look in the log, you'll still find the error there, even if you didn't notice anything untoward while working normally. Ideally the point of the error sound is to alert the tester to the error, so they can investigate further. There has been discussion in the past about the idea of having this be configurable. This is the only issue I can find on it though which was closed a couple of years ago: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/6917. If anyone feels like creating a new issue, I think a case can be argued for the inclusion of an option, perhaps on the "Advanced" settings screen and have error sounds automatically enabled for alpha / beta builds and automatically disabled for RC / release builds. Quentin.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 8:14 AM Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
--
Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Jaffar Sidek
Hi. I have no qualms about error warnings with sound, except
that The NVDA error warning sound sounds rather loud and, to a
certain extent, too triumphant. I wish the error warning could be
made less glaring. Encountering an error is already frustrating.
Hearing such a vulgar sound multiplies the frustration even more.
Cheers!
On 29/9/2020 8:15 am, Quentin
Christensen wrote:
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Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Joseph do you know if any fixes were made concerning Bard Express. before
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
there last update we only needed to keep the program in standard mode in order to hear the annotation of a book. Since the update that ability has been taken away. Now we only get title, author and the first few words of the annotation. ****** If we can't look at ourselves, and ask, why? then where does the learning start? Family times where there is fun for every ear! http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3 Or ask your A device to play Family times on tuneIn You can also find us on your mobile device install OoTunes and search for Family times
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] running beta of nvda Hi, It is useful in alpha builds, but I do understand that it isn't so much for beta releases. The bigger problem isn't swapping debug tone - rather, instructing people as to how to spot these errors and reporting them using appropriate methods. This is the reason why whenever I get bug reports about add-ons (or in some cases, NVDA itself), I ask for a debug log offlist so it can be reproduced and reported to NV Access; in some cases I do come back and report additional findings and let folks know what will happen in a follow-up action. Perhaps the bigger issue would be teaching people about how to report bugs appropriately. It isn't enough to simply state that you are hearing descending tones. Users and developers would like to know possible steps taken to arrive at a specific problem, including what NVDA did versus what folks were expecting. Even though users might not be able to provide certain details, discussions on this list and elsewhere may provide necessary info for people to help debug and think about solutions (and in some cases, implement them). Although I do not say this a lot in public, but I feel it is time I say it: I take lack of detailed bug reports and the atmosphere behind lack of effective bug reporting instructions as a personal failure. Cheers, Joseph -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler Spivey Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 12:09 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] running beta of nvda Maybe the solution here is to open issues for every single error we hear that isn't a duplicate of something else, since these are obviously important enough to get the user's attention. You (and others who are part of the project) don't seem to understand that the sound is useless to most of us. It comes up so often that it's just background noise. Let's take some simple examples: 1. Restart with add-ons disabled, press control NVDA v, tab twice, hit escape, press control NVDA s to switch synth then hit enter. You'll most likely get: RuntimeError: wrapped C/C++ object of type BoxSizer has been deleted Does this matter to anyone? Probably not, since it's been there for a while. Next one. Switch to a synth which is an addon, then restart with add-ons disabled. You hear the startup sound, then the error sound. When you look, you find out that it's just NVDA not being able to load the synth, because addons are disabled, which is a completely expected case. But this shouldn't produce the sound. There are others, which come up when doing seemingly simple tasks. Alt tabbing just now is a perfect example of something I would not expect to fail: Could not register for UIA events for element Why is that important? If it can't register because of a COM Error, it should do something else, or tell you if you debug. Alt tabbing again, we get another error sound, this time for an unreachable wave player. On 9/28/2020 11:32 AM, Joseph Lee wrote: Hi,
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