[Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA


Gene
 

When I'm on a web page and I need to use something other than enter or space bar to try to get something to work, I try left click and activate object. If one doesn't work, the other may. Whatever the intent, you need to know both and know that one may work where the other doesn't.

Also, unless you know a command works in both layouts, you need to specify which keyboard layout you are giving a command for.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Davis
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 5:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Mostly designed for use with object navigation (to get you where regular navigation keys like the arrows and tab can't get to), I must confess I haven't
looked at the technicalities of exactly how the behaviour differs, but great that it works as a solution here :)
Well, we won't know that until the OP tries it.

I still want him to test COM reg fix, and shift+enter, space, etc. as well.

Luke


David Russell
 

Hello NVDA,

Luke, Gene, Brian, Quentin, and all interested, thank you for your
input thus far.

As mentioned, the website in question is: www.webull.com.

You can only apply if a US citizen, or once your picture national ID
has been affixed. I could not read the application prior to my wife
adding my ID, nor can you.
That being said, here is the part of the application that is giving me trouble.
See below.
Investment Information
This information is collected to better understand your investment
profile. Your information is encrypted and securely transmitted.
FAQ
How to make a selection for investment experience?
Do you do a hard pull of my credit report or a soft pull?
Investment Profile
How much investment experience do you have?
Choose One
Note: Enter key does not work on the line "Choose one." Earlier, the
page down and enter were able to be utilized though with repeated
attempts. Back to application sample.
What's your overall investment objective?
Choose One
How long do you plan to invest your money?
Choose One
The global stock market is often volatile. If your entire investment
portfolio lost 10% of its value in a month during a market decline,
what would you do?
Choose One
Financial Information
How important is liquidity to you?
Choose One
What is your approximate yearly income?
Choose One
What is your approximate total net worth?
Choose One
What is the approximate total value of your cash and liquid investments?
Choose One
Continue

Each part of this app needs to be completed before one may continue.
Now you have knowledge of this entire issue. Thanks in advance; I will
read the daily summary over the weekend!
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com


Gene
 

Are these combo boxes? You said that enter doesn't work on the line choose one. How are you moving? When you get to choose one, down arrow to see if there is a combo box or other structures. the line choose one could just be text and you work with what is below it.
Don't tab through the form. Look at everything by down arrowing. If you tab through unfamiliar forms, you may miss information or structures.

If you down arrow and don't see structures you can work with, we may or may not be able to help with that.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: David Russell
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 8:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Navigating With Mouse Keys CT

Hello NVDA,

Luke, Gene, Brian, Quentin, and all interested, thank you for your
input thus far.

As mentioned, the website in question is: www.webull.com.

You can only apply if a US citizen, or once your picture national ID
has been affixed. I could not read the application prior to my wife
adding my ID, nor can you.
That being said, here is the part of the application that is giving me trouble.
See below.
Investment Information
This information is collected to better understand your investment
profile. Your information is encrypted and securely transmitted.
FAQ
How to make a selection for investment experience?
Do you do a hard pull of my credit report or a soft pull?
Investment Profile
How much investment experience do you have?
Choose One
Note: Enter key does not work on the line "Choose one." Earlier, the
page down and enter were able to be utilized though with repeated
attempts. Back to application sample.
What's your overall investment objective?
Choose One
How long do you plan to invest your money?
Choose One
The global stock market is often volatile. If your entire investment
portfolio lost 10% of its value in a month during a market decline,
what would you do?
Choose One
Financial Information
How important is liquidity to you?
Choose One
What is your approximate yearly income?
Choose One
What is your approximate total net worth?
Choose One
What is the approximate total value of your cash and liquid investments?
Choose One
Continue

Each part of this app needs to be completed before one may continue.
Now you have knowledge of this entire issue. Thanks in advance; I will
read the daily summary over the weekend!
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com


Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually it's not knowledge for me. I don't use, and have never used a number pad so I just assumed that they were known as slash and dash. Not devide and minus. Same with star and times. I never actually had a sighted person draw them out with wiki sticks for me to feel. Or, maybe I did when I was little but I don't remember.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 8 Apr 2021, at 15:56, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

If someone wishes to write it this way, have at it.  But we're back to one of those things on which we're likely to never agree.  I believe that very common conventions, across many forms of documentation, for referring to number pad keys need to be known by "the average computer user."  It is no help to make documentation longer, and more complicated, assuming that this is not something commonly known, in my opinion.

Asterisk as the multiply operator and slash as the divide operator predate the PC, and have been in use in that way on many adding machines for decades now, particularly after the PC appeared.

Numpad multiply and numpad divide need to be understood under those terms, and I'd rather the rare person who doesn't already know them do what Mr. Russell did and ask.  There's nothing wrong with having a very occasional gap in common knowledge and asking to fill it in.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Chris Smart
 

Gosh, you should try a full-size keyboard sometime.




On 2021-04-09 12:49 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually it's not knowledge for me. I don't use, and have never used a number pad so I just assumed that they were known as slash and dash. Not devide and minus. Same with star and times. I never actually had a sighted person draw them out with wiki sticks for me to feel. Or, maybe I did when I was little but I don't remember.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 8 Apr 2021, at 15:56, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

If someone wishes to write it this way, have at it.  But we're back to one of those things on which we're likely to never agree.  I believe that very common conventions, across many forms of documentation, for referring to number pad keys need to be known by "the average computer user."  It is no help to make documentation longer, and more complicated, assuming that this is not something commonly known, in my opinion.

Asterisk as the multiply operator and slash as the divide operator predate the PC, and have been in use in that way on many adding machines for decades now, particularly after the PC appeared.

Numpad multiply and numpad divide need to be understood under those terms, and I'd rather the rare person who doesn't already know them do what Mr. Russell did and ask.  There's nothing wrong with having a very occasional gap in common knowledge and asking to fill it in.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


 

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 12:49 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't use, and have never used a number pad
-
Which, Sarah, makes you a member of a very tiny minority of computer users, sighted or blind.   Again, knowing when one is far from the mean in a bell curve distribution is a pretty vital skill.

One does not create documentation "for the masses" that covers each and every rare eventuality.  In fact, if one wants it to be as succinct as possible, one avoids doing precisely that.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


David Russell
 

Hello NVDA,

Gene, and all, the problem occurs with this application form, (see
sample in my previous post) that each question has the "choose one"
command. The combo-box may be embedded on the line that says, choose
one.
I was using page down and enter, or enter and page down to force the
combo-box to open on earlier application questions, such as address,
city, and state; the state to choose was in a combo-box.
I had to often repeat page down enter, or enter page down, to get it
to behave as wanted.

If I down arrow, as in the sample sent, other questions follow until
the end and one reads
Continue
I guess the question is more how to force a combo-box to open if it is
truly embedded.

Luke, I am reluctant to try the thing you suggested in NVDA tools, I
am unaware of that feature.

Sorry to hear that shift-control-f doesn't work, but will try Jackie's
suggestion, NVDA-enter on the line in question.
Cheers,

David
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com


 

A quick reminder to the membership that's reading this topic (or I should say, topics, which is the problem):  The group rules strongly discourage the intentional splitting of topics unless there is an actual spin-off conversation not related to the original one, which happens.

This topic was the original one, and there have been two split from it, one entitled, "Activating The Mouse CT," and the other, "Activating The Mouse CT2."  But all of these are about the same issues at hand.  I have been merging these in to the original topic on the archive, but I would really appreciate it if subsequent follow-ups are made to only the topic entitled, "Activating the Mouse with NVDA", moving forward to keep everything together for this particular tightly-related cluster of issues. It makes my life much easier, and the archive far easier to search for those who do so later.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


David Russell
 

Hello NVDA,

The issue turned out to be turning screen reading mode on to fill in
the combo-boxes.
Hot keys were read to do this. I will not share them as they may be
unique to the webull.com program. Yay and thanks!

--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com
PS27:14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen
thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.


Sarah k Alawami
 

I have. I hate it. It was on a desktop in 2009 or so. I turned off desktop nav and used laptop layout as for me it is much much faster. My hands get tired easily so if I don't have to move them a lot, that is good. I can work longer hours doing what I love.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2021, at 9:54, Chris Smart wrote:

Gosh, you should try a full-size keyboard sometime.




On 2021-04-09 12:49 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually it's not knowledge for me. I don't use, and have never used a number pad so I just assumed that they were known as slash and dash. Not devide and minus. Same with star and times. I never actually had a sighted person draw them out with wiki sticks for me to feel. Or, maybe I did when I was little but I don't remember.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 8 Apr 2021, at 15:56, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

If someone wishes to write it this way, have at it.  But we're back to one of those things on which we're likely to never agree.  I believe that very common conventions, across many forms of documentation, for referring to number pad keys need to be known by "the average computer user."  It is no help to make documentation longer, and more complicated, assuming that this is not something commonly known, in my opinion.

Asterisk as the multiply operator and slash as the divide operator predate the PC, and have been in use in that way on many adding machines for decades now, particularly after the PC appeared.

Numpad multiply and numpad divide need to be understood under those terms, and I'd rather the rare person who doesn't already know them do what Mr. Russell did and ask.  There's nothing wrong with having a very occasional gap in common knowledge and asking to fill it in.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Chris Smart
 

Ok, I just hope you can teach the other keyboard style as well.

Even the notebook I use sometimes has a numpad.



On 2021-04-09 5:09 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I have. I hate it. It was on a desktop in 2009 or so. I turned off desktop nav and used laptop layout as for me it is much much faster. My hands get tired easily so if I don't have to move them a lot, that is good. I can work longer hours doing what I love.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2021, at 9:54, Chris Smart wrote:

Gosh, you should try a full-size keyboard sometime.




On 2021-04-09 12:49 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually it's not knowledge for me. I don't use, and have never used a number pad so I just assumed that they were known as slash and dash. Not devide and minus. Same with star and times. I never actually had a sighted person draw them out with wiki sticks for me to feel. Or, maybe I did when I was little but I don't remember.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 8 Apr 2021, at 15:56, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

If someone wishes to write it this way, have at it.  But we're back to one of those things on which we're likely to never agree.  I believe that very common conventions, across many forms of documentation, for referring to number pad keys need to be known by "the average computer user."  It is no help to make documentation longer, and more complicated, assuming that this is not something commonly known, in my opinion.

Asterisk as the multiply operator and slash as the divide operator predate the PC, and have been in use in that way on many adding machines for decades now, particularly after the PC appeared.

Numpad multiply and numpad divide need to be understood under those terms, and I'd rather the rare person who doesn't already know them do what Mr. Russell did and ask.  There's nothing wrong with having a very occasional gap in common knowledge and asking to fill it in.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Nope. I don't even bother learning it. Right now due to my brain issue I tend to forget as soon as I'm told, and I have to repeat things probably 20 or 30 times until I get it. But I'm one who will just stick with what I know to avoid any stress on my battered brain.

For the person with the truly embedded combo box if you tab can you then hit alt down arrow to open the "one" combo box and hope it is the right one when looking at context?

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2021, at 14:12, Chris Smart wrote:

Ok, I just hope you can teach the other keyboard style as well.

Even the notebook I use sometimes has a numpad.



On 2021-04-09 5:09 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I have. I hate it. It was on a desktop in 2009 or so. I turned off desktop nav and used laptop layout as for me it is much much faster. My hands get tired easily so if I don't have to move them a lot, that is good. I can work longer hours doing what I love.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 Apr 2021, at 9:54, Chris Smart wrote:

Gosh, you should try a full-size keyboard sometime.




On 2021-04-09 12:49 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually it's not knowledge for me. I don't use, and have never used a number pad so I just assumed that they were known as slash and dash. Not devide and minus. Same with star and times. I never actually had a sighted person draw them out with wiki sticks for me to feel. Or, maybe I did when I was little but I don't remember.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 8 Apr 2021, at 15:56, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

If someone wishes to write it this way, have at it.  But we're back to one of those things on which we're likely to never agree.  I believe that very common conventions, across many forms of documentation, for referring to number pad keys need to be known by "the average computer user."  It is no help to make documentation longer, and more complicated, assuming that this is not something commonly known, in my opinion.

Asterisk as the multiply operator and slash as the divide operator predate the PC, and have been in use in that way on many adding machines for decades now, particularly after the PC appeared.

Numpad multiply and numpad divide need to be understood under those terms, and I'd rather the rare person who doesn't already know them do what Mr. Russell did and ask.  There's nothing wrong with having a very occasional gap in common knowledge and asking to fill it in.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Gene
 

I see no reason to believe I am unique. I took a good training course, I looked at screen-reader documentation in the late nineties when I was first learning Windows, and I didn't have the slash and star keys described as divide or multiply. I learned it later, I don't recall how. for all I know, I may have learned it by using the key describer. On what do you base your contention or assumption that blind computer users generally know this?

All I said is that the keys be identified as both when discussing mouse movement. that is not unreasonable, given what I suspect is the experience of a good many blind people. If your impression is based on formerly sighted people knowing this, that isn't a valid basis. People who were blind when they start learning about computers may well not have been taught these numpad keys as mathematical functions.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 11:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 12:49 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't use, and have never used a number pad-
Which, Sarah, makes you a member of a very tiny minority of computer users, sighted or blind. Again, knowing when one is far from the mean in a bell curve distribution is a pretty vital skill.

One does not create documentation "for the masses" that covers each and every rare eventuality. In fact, if one wants it to be as succinct as possible, one avoids doing precisely that.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

~ Richard M. Nixon


Gene
 

Evidently, you are saying you don't find a combo box or any structure corresponding to those lines. That's what I wanted to clarify. Your talk of using page down or enter and page down is confusing because that isn't the way to open combo boxes. You use enter on a combo box to go into forms mode or turn off browse mode, whatever your screen-reader calls it. If a combo box contains java script, once you are in forms mode. the command to open the combo box is control down arrow. You never use page down for this purpose with or without control. If you wish, you can issue the open command on any combo box whether it uses JAVA Script or not, though it will only affect the operation if it has JAVA script.

Since you are saying that you see no combo box, it may be there but not accessible to a screen-reader. You may not be able to work with it.

I have two suggestions. They are worth trying, but I'm doubtful they will work.

One is to try another browser and another screen-reader. You never know what the result might be. To discuss which other browser would be good to try, we have to know which one you are using now.

Here is the other suggestion:
If you are using JAWS, turn off the virtual PC cursor with JAWS key z. Now, tab and see if you see a combo box you didn't see before. Once you have finished looking, use the same command, JAWS key z to turn on the virtual pc cursor again.

If you are using NVDA, use the command NVDA key space to do the same thing and tab as discussed above. When finished, use the same command, NVDA space bar, to turn on browse mode again.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: David Russell
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 12:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Activating The Mouse CT

Hello NVDA,

Gene, and all, the problem occurs with this application form, (see
sample in my previous post) that each question has the "choose one"
command. The combo-box may be embedded on the line that says, choose
one.
I was using page down and enter, or enter and page down to force the
combo-box to open on earlier application questions, such as address,
city, and state; the state to choose was in a combo-box.
I had to often repeat page down enter, or enter page down, to get it
to behave as wanted.

If I down arrow, as in the sample sent, other questions follow until
the end and one reads
Continue
I guess the question is more how to force a combo-box to open if it is
truly embedded.

Luke, I am reluctant to try the thing you suggested in NVDA tools, I
am unaware of that feature.

Sorry to hear that shift-control-f doesn't work, but will try Jackie's
suggestion, NVDA-enter on the line in question.
Cheers,

David
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com


David Moore
 

I was totally blind in high school in the early '80s! I learned then, that the Slash and star keys Ment divide or multiply! I don't remember how, either someone told me, but I did a lot of calculations on in IBM PC in the middle 80s. I cannot imagine that a totally blind person could use a computer for any length of time and not know that! This concerns me a great deal! I have always had many sided friends, family, and others describing things for me! I believe that is the root problem here for so many blind individuals. They do not have enough sided people in their life describing and interacting with what they do as a blind person. I have cited friends who I have taught English one Braille to, alphabet and numbers, and they can use a slate and stylus. These friends are so interested in how I do things. I think we need to learn how a sided person sees, does, and how the sided persons experience is when they work with technology. It really helps me, I know that, to visualize in if I know how a screen of a phone looks to a sided person, it helps me so much to visualize that in my head. Caveat, though, I did have a little reading vision until I was 12. Maybe that is the entire difference for me, I don't know! I actually learned as a child how everything looked like in print! I wonder if that makes a difference right there! Take care guys, very interesting discussion.


On Fri, Apr 9, 2021, 5:56 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I see no reason to believe I am unique.  I took a good training course, I
looked at screen-reader documentation in the late nineties when I was first
learning Windows, and I didn't have the slash and star keys described as
divide or multiply.  I learned it later, I don't recall how.  for all I
know, I may have learned it by using the key describer.  On what do you base
your contention or assumption that blind computer users generally know this?

All I said is that the keys be identified as both when discussing mouse
movement.  that is not unreasonable, given what I suspect is the experience
of a good many blind people.  If your impression is based on formerly
sighted people knowing this, that isn't a valid basis.  People who were
blind when they start learning about computers may well not have been taught
these numpad keys as mathematical functions.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 11:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 12:49 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't use, and have never used a number pad-
Which, Sarah, makes you a member of a very tiny minority of computer users,
sighted or blind.   Again, knowing when one is far from the mean in a bell
curve distribution is a pretty vital skill.

One does not create documentation "for the masses" that covers each and
every rare eventuality.  In fact, if one wants it to be as succinct as
possible, one avoids doing precisely that.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless
you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon











Luke Davis
 

Back to the original issue, David Russell wrote:

Gene, and all, the problem occurs with this application form, (see
sample in my previous post) that each question has the "choose one"
command. The combo-box may be embedded on the line that says, choose
one.
Along with the excellent suggestions from others, may I suggest that when you get to the line with the combo box on it, you press the letter f, to jump to the next formfield? This might move you to whatever these combo boxes are.
Then try the space key to "activate" them (or do as others have suggested).

I do remind you to check your browse mode settins, and make sure you have "use browse mode on page load" checked. Also perhaps uncheck the one before it: "use screen layout when supported".
I described the first of these in an earlier message to you.

> I was using page down and enter, or enter and page down to

I'm not sure where you got page down in this context, but I'm pretty sure it has no value for moving between or within fields, and in fact will make you miss lots of content.

If I down arrow, as in the sample sent, other questions follow until
the end and one reads
Continue
Continue should say "button" after it. If it doesn't, your settings are very strange.

Luke, I am reluctant to try the thing you suggested in NVDA tools, I
am unaware of that feature.
It's in the user manual. And it can't hurt anything.
But that's your choice.

Luke


tim
 

True, the only way someone would know them keys is if you used a accounting calculator, because the num pad is laid out the same key pattern.
That is why you see the same key pattern on standard 104 keyboards.
I learned it in accounting classes, and when I taught dos/windows it was never gone over in class. Assumed, because typing being a requirement. And yes, in college your are expected to know some stuff. They don't spoon feed.


tim
 

I can under stan some not knowing, because if you used a laptop not all have num pads.
Personally I don't like them, about ripped a pinky off speed typing.

On 4/9/2021 6:12 PM, David Moore wrote:
I was totally blind in high school in the early '80s! I learned then, that the Slash and star keys Ment divide or multiply! I don't remember how, either someone told me, but I did a lot of calculations on in IBM PC in the middle 80s. I cannot imagine that a totally blind person could use a computer for any length of time and not know that! This concerns me a great deal! I have always had many sided friends, family, and others describing things for me! I believe that is the root problem here for so many blind individuals. They do not have enough sided people in their life describing and interacting with what they do as a blind person. I have cited friends who I have taught English one Braille to, alphabet and numbers, and they can use a slate and stylus. These friends are so interested in how I do things. I think we need to learn how a sided person sees, does, and how the sided persons experience is when they work with technology. It really helps me, I know that, to visualize in if I know how a screen of a phone looks to a sided person, it helps me so much to visualize that in my head. Caveat, though, I did have a little reading vision until I was 12. Maybe that is the entire difference for me, I don't know! I actually learned as a child how everything looked like in print! I wonder if that makes a difference right there! Take care guys, very interesting discussion.
On Fri, Apr 9, 2021, 5:56 PM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com <mailto:gsasner@gmail.com>> wrote:
I see no reason to believe I am unique.  I took a good training
course, I
looked at screen-reader documentation in the late nineties when I
was first
learning Windows, and I didn't have the slash and star keys
described as
divide or multiply.  I learned it later, I don't recall how.  for all I
know, I may have learned it by using the key describer.  On what do
you base
your contention or assumption that blind computer users generally
know this?
All I said is that the keys be identified as both when discussing mouse
movement.  that is not unreasonable, given what I suspect is the
experience
of a good many blind people.  If your impression is based on formerly
sighted people knowing this, that isn't a valid basis.  People who were
blind when they start learning about computers may well not have
been taught
these numpad keys as mathematical functions.
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 11:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Activating the Mouse with NVDA
On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 12:49 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't use, and have never used a number pad-
Which, Sarah, makes you a member of a very tiny minority of computer
users,
sighted or blind.   Again, knowing when one is far from the mean in
a bell
curve distribution is a pretty vital skill.
One does not create documentation "for the masses" that covers each and
every rare eventuality.  In fact, if one wants it to be as succinct as
possible, one avoids doing precisely that.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win
unless
you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.
       ~ Richard M. Nixon


David Russell
 

Hello NVDA,

For the sake of update or summary, thanks everyone for your input into
this topic.
I am curious to know a little more about the option to use what is
called 'screen reader mode.'
Is this a way for websites to make their offerings or content more
accessible to those using screen readers?

Can a website detect when someone is visiting their website and
cookies gather what browser they are using and specialized
peripherals?
On Thursday, it appeared I was just one of the fray interested in
applying to webull.com. On Friday, the screen reader mode option was
read to me.

I gather from the information in the NVDA manual, and that found at
other websites like computer hope.com, that there are different ways
to use the mouse together with NVDA. Is that a correct assumption?

Like Sarah, I too learn what I have to do in order to accomplish what
I do on the computer or any mobile device. Hence, my skills, too, are
perhaps limited or defined.

I will check back when the daily summary appears in my inbox on Sunday
to read what replies may appear. Again, much thanks!

--
David C. Russell, Author


 

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 10:28 PM, tim wrote:
And yes, in college your are expected to know some stuff. They don't spoon feed.
-
And the issue of spoon-feeding aside, as I don't think that's exactly what's being asked for here, there is, as I have asserted earlier, every reason for software developers for Windows, in the year 2021, to believe that they do not and should not have to discuss certain Windows basics as part of their training manuals and certain terminology, either.

People can, and will, occasionally have gaps in their knowledge.  I have gaps in my knowledge.  I had to get a lot of instruction on the concept of the virtual cursor when I first started working with screen readers.  But I don't expect that the documentation on how to use a screen reader is likely even to discuss the virtual cursor because it's an "under the hood" feature that the end user really has no need to know much about in "daily driving" with a screen reader.

If something is unfamiliar in a given piece of documentation then the appropriate course of action is to ask about it.  Sometimes, and only sometimes, it is absolutely apropriate to update the documentation.  Others it's appropriate to leave it be because the majority of readers will know the terminology already, or ask about it once.  That's why it's always handy to have a section dedicated to standard notation in a given piece of documentation as abbreviations often get used, e.g., NVDA+{whatever}, where NVDA in that context could be either INSERT or CAPS LOCK, depending on the keyboard layout.  But I don't want, "NVDA+N (INSERT+N for desktop, CAPS LOCK+N for laptop keyboard layouts, respectively)" everywhere NVDA+N is used.  There is every reason that the reader of something like the NVDA User Guide should have probably either reviewed, or will look up, the concept of the NVDA key when they're unfamiliar with that notation.

You cannot and should not presume "blank slates" when writing documentation because it then becomes an ever expanding task when you cannot make reasonable base assumptions about the skill sets of individuals coming to that documentation. 
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon