Some mouse navigation questions
Hello Jean,
Yes, I am biased towards JAWS, let’s get that up front.
However, I do know NVDA, probably better than you know JAWS by the sound of it <Smile>.
I can honestly say that the touch cursor is more powerful from what I’ve seen so far, than object nav mode. I will concede though that you can get out of the program window with object nav, but it’s a shame you can’t with flat review mode, as I tend to deal with visual presentation a lot, being blind, and I don’t really thing that verbal feedback of the visual layout of the screen is NVDA’s forte, even though you do have the audio representing mouse movement.
All the best
Steve
Sent: 10 February 2019 18:28
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
I'm not saying the following to give you a hard time, as I explain below. You have a bias towards JAWS which I'm pointing out because it may give a false impression to some list members. please reserve such conclusions, if you can, until after you really know NVDA well. There are ways in which JAWS is more capable, such as being able to have the user define frames to perform actions that make some programs far more easy to use and, in effect, more accessible. If you use such capabilities, JAWS may be the screen-reader for you to use as your main screen-reader but you appear to underestimate the abilities of NVDA in other areas.
As far as I know, screen review is limited to the current window. But object navigation definitely has no such limitations and you can see things with it you can't see in review mode. It is equivalent to the Touch Cursor in JAWS but since I haven't used the touch cursor, I can't give a detailed comparison and contrast.
I haven't seen any list members tell you where to get material about such things as object navigation and screen review. I'll look and send you some information in another message, though I haven't followed such matters as carefully as some list members.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2019 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
Hi Jean,
What I find about screen review mode is that it seems to be restricted to the current window. Is there any way of unrestricting it?
It also doesn’t see everything on screen, probably because of the lack of video hooks, but it certainly isn’t as good as JAWS for screen review.
All the best
Steve
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 09 February 2019 18:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
The equivalent to the JAWS cursor is screen review mode. There is also object navigation which, according to what I've heard and read is equivalent to the touch cursor in NVDA. To read about screen review, you can look at the user guide
You can look at the user guide for information about object navigation but you would probably be better off using a tutorial. I'll let list members discuss which tutorial they like that deals with the subject.
You can click the mouse once you move to something using object navigation or screen review mode. Use the command NVDA key slash, the mouse left click key in JAWS and NVDA. That moves the mouse to your current position in object navigation or screen review, whichever you are using. Then press slash again, which iss left click, as I said.
I can tell you where to look in the user manual but if you want me to, ask and I'll do so in another message. I'd have to look it up.
Also, if you don't know them, you need to know screen review keys such as numpad 8 read current line in review, numpad 7, move to and read previous line. and the rest.
Also, remember to always go back to object navigation after using screen review. Certain things won't work as they should if you don't.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Barton
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2019 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
Hey guys,
so i guess what i'm trying to figure out here, ya know in jaws we have
the PC and jaws cursor. Does such an animal exist in NVDA? Obviously
there are some things we can access in jaws with the PC cursor, and
some things with the jaws cursor. Then we have the ability to route
from 1 to the other. Can we do the same thing in NVDA?
On 2/9/19, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 11:54 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>
>>
>> Unfortunately, I know of no way of efficiently navigating with the mouse
>> in NVDA, using the keyboard. If there is, again, I'd love to hear it.
>
> Please expand on what you are using in JAWS. One of the things I think is
> (or at least was) better in NVDA was how it worked in conjunction with the
> mouse.
>
> I'm trying to figure out what it is you're using that NVDA lacks, whether in
> native form or by installing any of several different add-ons.
>
> --
>
> Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
>
> *A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
> illusion is deep.*
>
> ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back
>
>
>
>
Hello Jean,
Yes, I am biased towards JAWS, let’s get that up front.
However, I do know NVDA, probably better than you know JAWS by the sound of it <Smile>.
I can honestly say that the touch cursor is more powerful from what I’ve seen so far, than object nav mode. I will concede though that you can get out of the program window with object nav, but it’s a shame you can’t with flat review mode, as I tend to deal with visual presentation a lot, being blind, and I don’t really thing that verbal feedback of the visual layout of the screen is NVDA’s forte, even though you do have the audio representing mouse movement.
All the best
Steve
From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: 10 February 2019 18:28
To:
nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation
questions
I'm not saying the following to give you a hard time, as I explain below. You have a bias towards JAWS which I'm pointing out because it may give a false impression to some list members. please reserve such conclusions, if you can, until after you really know NVDA well. There are ways in which JAWS is more capable, such as being able to have the user define frames to perform actions that make some programs far more easy to use and, in effect, more accessible. If you use such capabilities, JAWS may be the screen-reader for you to use as your main screen-reader but you appear to underestimate the abilities of NVDA in other areas.
As far as I know, screen review is limited to the current window. But object navigation definitely has no such limitations and you can see things with it you can't see in review mode. It is equivalent to the Touch Cursor in JAWS but since I haven't used the touch cursor, I can't give a detailed comparison and contrast.
I haven't seen any list members tell you where to get material about such things as object navigation and screen review. I'll look and send you some information in another message, though I haven't followed such matters as carefully as some list members.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2019 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
Hi Jean,
What I find about screen review mode is that it seems to be restricted to the current window. Is there any way of unrestricting it?
It also doesn’t see everything on screen, probably because of the lack of video hooks, but it certainly isn’t as good as JAWS for screen review.
All the best
Steve
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: 09 February 2019 18:26
To:
nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation
questions
The equivalent to the JAWS cursor is screen review mode. There is also object navigation which, according to what I've heard and read is equivalent to the touch cursor in NVDA. To read about screen review, you can look at the user guide
You can look at the user guide for information about object navigation but you would probably be better off using a tutorial. I'll let list members discuss which tutorial they like that deals with the subject.
You can click the mouse once you move to something using object navigation or screen review mode. Use the command NVDA key slash, the mouse left click key in JAWS and NVDA. That moves the mouse to your current position in object navigation or screen review, whichever you are using. Then press slash again, which iss left click, as I said.
I can tell you where to look in the user manual but if you want me to, ask and I'll do so in another message. I'd have to look it up.
Also, if you don't know them, you need to know screen review keys such as numpad 8 read current line in review, numpad 7, move to and read previous line. and the rest.
Also, remember to always go back to object navigation after using screen review. Certain things won't work as they should if you don't.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Barton
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2019 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
Hey guys,
so i guess what i'm
trying to figure out here, ya know in jaws we have
the PC and jaws
cursor. Does such an animal exist in NVDA? Obviously
there are
some things we can access in jaws with the PC cursor, and
some things with
the jaws cursor. Then we have the ability to route
from 1 to the
other. Can we do the same thing in NVDA?
On 2/9/19, Brian Vogel
<britechguy@...>
wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 11:54 AM, Steve Nutt
wrote:
>
>>
>> Unfortunately, I know of no way of
efficiently navigating with the mouse
>> in NVDA, using the keyboard.
If there is, again, I'd love to hear it.
>
> Please expand on what
you are using in JAWS. One of the things I think is
> (or at
least was) better in NVDA was how it worked in conjunction with the
>
mouse.
>
> I'm trying to figure out what it is you're using that
NVDA lacks, whether in
> native form or by installing any of several
different add-ons.
>
> --
>
>
Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build
17763
>
> *A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance
when the need for
> illusion is deep.*
>
>
~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and
Back
>
>
>
>
You’re dead right there is. As I say, if you want to interact with sighted people, then JAWS gives better visual presentation of any screen.
All the best
Steve
Sent: 11 February 2019 12:35
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
You may know JAWS better in part or in large part because I haven't used JAWS for many years, after starting to use NVDA. At times, JAWS may see things, I believe it still uses some methods to get information that NVDA doesn't, but for a lot of users, I doubt there is a meaningful difference. For some users, there is.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 4:40 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
Hello Jean,
Yes, I am biased towards JAWS, let’s get that up front.
However, I do know NVDA, probably better than you know JAWS by the sound of it <Smile>.
I can honestly say that the touch cursor is more powerful from what I’ve seen so far, than object nav mode. I will concede though that you can get out of the program window with object nav, but it’s a shame you can’t with flat review mode, as I tend to deal with visual presentation a lot, being blind, and I don’t really thing that verbal feedback of the visual layout of the screen is NVDA’s forte, even though you do have the audio representing mouse movement.
All the best
Steve
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 10 February 2019 18:28
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
I'm not saying the following to give you a hard time, as I explain below. You have a bias towards JAWS which I'm pointing out because it may give a false impression to some list members. please reserve such conclusions, if you can, until after you really know NVDA well. There are ways in which JAWS is more capable, such as being able to have the user define frames to perform actions that make some programs far more easy to use and, in effect, more accessible. If you use such capabilities, JAWS may be the screen-reader for you to use as your main screen-reader but you appear to underestimate the abilities of NVDA in other areas.
As far as I know, screen review is limited to the current window. But object navigation definitely has no such limitations and you can see things with it you can't see in review mode. It is equivalent to the Touch Cursor in JAWS but since I haven't used the touch cursor, I can't give a detailed comparison and contrast.
I haven't seen any list members tell you where to get material about such things as object navigation and screen review. I'll look and send you some information in another message, though I haven't followed such matters as carefully as some list members.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2019 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
Hi Jean,
What I find about screen review mode is that it seems to be restricted to the current window. Is there any way of unrestricting it?
It also doesn’t see everything on screen, probably because of the lack of video hooks, but it certainly isn’t as good as JAWS for screen review.
All the best
Steve
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 09 February 2019 18:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
The equivalent to the JAWS cursor is screen review mode. There is also object navigation which, according to what I've heard and read is equivalent to the touch cursor in NVDA. To read about screen review, you can look at the user guide
You can look at the user guide for information about object navigation but you would probably be better off using a tutorial. I'll let list members discuss which tutorial they like that deals with the subject.
You can click the mouse once you move to something using object navigation or screen review mode. Use the command NVDA key slash, the mouse left click key in JAWS and NVDA. That moves the mouse to your current position in object navigation or screen review, whichever you are using. Then press slash again, which iss left click, as I said.
I can tell you where to look in the user manual but if you want me to, ask and I'll do so in another message. I'd have to look it up.
Also, if you don't know them, you need to know screen review keys such as numpad 8 read current line in review, numpad 7, move to and read previous line. and the rest.
Also, remember to always go back to object navigation after using screen review. Certain things won't work as they should if you don't.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Barton
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2019 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
Hey guys,
so i guess what i'm trying to figure out here, ya know in jaws we have
the PC and jaws cursor. Does such an animal exist in NVDA? Obviously
there are some things we can access in jaws with the PC cursor, and
some things with the jaws cursor. Then we have the ability to route
from 1 to the other. Can we do the same thing in NVDA?
On 2/9/19, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 11:54 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>
>>
>> Unfortunately, I know of no way of efficiently navigating with the mouse
>> in NVDA, using the keyboard. If there is, again, I'd love to hear it.
>
> Please expand on what you are using in JAWS. One of the things I think is
> (or at least was) better in NVDA was how it worked in conjunction with the
> mouse.
>
> I'm trying to figure out what it is you're using that NVDA lacks, whether in
> native form or by installing any of several different add-ons.
>
> --
>
> Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
>
> *A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
> illusion is deep.*
>
> ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back
>
>
>
>
With JAWS, the mouse can be trouble. According to some sighted people I've asked for help, the mouse doesn't go where you want it to. At least, that's the way it was about two years ago.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 12:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
In my experience, NVDA is a lot better at using the mouse when the screen
reader is active.
With JAWS, the mouse can be trouble. According to some sighted people I've
asked for help, the mouse doesn't go where you want it to. At least, that's
the way it was about two years ago.
In my experience, NVDA is a lot better at using the mouse when the
screen reader is active.
With JAWS, the mouse can be trouble. According to some sighted people
I've asked for help, the mouse doesn't go where you want it to. At
least, that's the way it was about two years ago.
--
Nimer Jaber
Please take the time to read this signature completely as it contains
some information about the email you have just read and all
attachments contained within as well as some valuable resources and
methods for contacting me if you have any questions or wish to talk.
The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.
Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/
To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org
You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (658-0358) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!
Someone feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, but NVDA is designed
so that a low vision user can use the mouse.
JAWS, on the other hand, is strictly for someone that is totally blind.
Therefore, it would be less likely to be able to navigate by the mouse.
--
Nimer Jaber
Please take the time to read this signature completely as it contains
some information about the email you have just read and all
attachments contained within as well as some valuable resources and
methods for contacting me if you have any questions or wish to talk.
The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.
Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/
To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org
You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (658-0358) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 12:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
In my experience, NVDA is a lot better at using the mouse when the screen
reader is active.
With JAWS, the mouse can be trouble. According to some sighted people I've
asked for help, the mouse doesn't go where you want it to. At least, that's
the way it was about two years ago.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 12:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
In my experience, NVDA is a lot better at using the mouse when the screen
reader is active.
With JAWS, the mouse can be trouble. According to some sighted people I've
asked for help, the mouse doesn't go where you want it to. At least, that's
the way it was about two years ago.
But this is with a physical mouse and JAWS is being discussed with the JAWS cursor being used. It may be that JAWS gives a better representation with the JAWS cursor and NVDA with the physical mouse.Being the only (that I know of) sighted person here who routinely works with both JAWS and NVDA, I can safely assert that neither has any advantage/disadvantage with regard to how the actual mouse or mouse pad behaves when used by a sighted assistant.
At one time NVDA had what I considered to be a huge advantage with regard to the mouse tracking feature, which would announce what was under the mouse pointer if anyone moved it around the screen. JAWS also supports that now.
Both are wonky, as far as a sighted user is concerned (and my clients, too), in how they implement mouse actions, particularly drag and drop. Sometimes it seems to work precisely as expected, others not. I generally discourage the use of mouse click simulation commands except where necessary, and simulated drag and drop unless it is the only way to accomplish something. But that's just my way, others may differ.
I'd rather teach someone how to cover the mousepad, while preserving the left and right click hard buttons for actual use, or to prepare a regular mouse such that it cannot move the pointer, but that the click buttons and scroll wheel, if present, work.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.
~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back
Thanks Brian.
It was good to have updated information from an unbiased point of view.
--
Nimer Jaber
Please take the time to read this signature completely as it contains
some information about the email you have just read and all
attachments contained within as well as some valuable resources and
methods for contacting me if you have any questions or wish to talk.
The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.
Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/
To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org
You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (658-0358) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!
unbiased point of viewI wouldn't call it unbiased (though it probably is) but simply based on the fact that even when I'm tutoring individuals I still use the mouse extensively for efficiency's sake when I need to get something done to continue with my lesson. Thus, I have tons of observational experience, and wanted to share it.
Nimer's report was correct, and I was not questioning it (not that I believe he thinks I was), but this is a case where who I am and what I do involves a lot of direct experience with both products and their behaviors.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.
~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back
All I'm saying was that Brian cleared things up when he said that years ago, JAWS did not have capability to use the mouse, but that the issue has since been fixed.
Also, it was good to have the point of view of someone not involved in the discussion. You and I both had different experiences.
Brian did not and offered a third perspective in the conversation.
JAWS did not have capability to use the mouseOn this I just wish to be crystal clear: JAWS did not, at one time, have mouse tracking where whatever happened to be under the mouse pointer as it was moved about the screen was announced.
A sighted assistant could still use the mouse as usual, and a blind or visually impaired user of JAWS still had access to the mouse emulation commands (or at least they have for a number of years now - I can't remember all the way back to JAWS 10 or earlier and I long ago ditched my documentation for the really old versions).
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.
~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back
If someone wants to ask something about the way NVDA does something compared to JAWS, and even give an example of how/why they feel JAWS did something better, I don't mind that at all as it's still informative. When people start bashing one screenreader to promote another, and I don't care which one, that's where I start to see a loss of respect. To me, that's part of flaming. Let's all keep it civil.
Travis
there is absolutely no difference in using the mouse with either screen reader running. In any case, this comparison between JAWS and NVDA is sort of pointless. If you have an NVDA question, please ask, otherwise let's try to refrain from bashing other products.
thanks.
On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 10:11 AM Chris Shook <chris0309@...> wrote:
In my experience, NVDA is a lot better at using the mouse when the
screen reader is active.
With JAWS, the mouse can be trouble. According to some sighted people
I've asked for help, the mouse doesn't go where you want it to. At
least, that's the way it was about two years ago.
--
Cordially,
Nimer Jaber
Please take the time to read this signature completely as it contains
some information about the email you have just read and all
attachments contained within as well as some valuable resources and
methods for contacting me if you have any questions or wish to talk.
The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.
Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/
To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org
You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (658-0358) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!