|
The point of using a computer is changing though.
I like my ai I like my control
But I have friends in the now generation, they want their system to work.
If it breaks they run the recovery disk and assume it will work.
Users want the systems to work.
They don't care if they can only use a certain thing.
Technitions and those that want to will still be able to hack in or get in and use their systems if they want but it will probably be a hobby thing like model trains are now.
Using a computer completely open, or heck driving a petrol car.
That may be strange now but driving a car will become a thing of the past.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/28/2018 4:06 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: Glen,
I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a waste of time.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
|
|
|
To be honest all businesses use windows, windows is what everyone uses.
I have a lot of stuff on windows.
I don't think windows will ever end or rather not end like that ms are pushing for a unified interface, a unified os.
Its happening with touch it will happen with things.
We will still have desktop terminals and such.
I don't see us ever loosing those.
Even in startrek where its all ai and such, people still type.
True its terminals, and large mainframes and computer grids but we will still have the basic things.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/28/2018 4:20 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote: As far as desktop systems, I suspect Microsoft is going to move away from them after Windows 10, and desktop systems will be left to Linux.
I think Microsoft will simply sell security upgrades to Windows 7 and 10, with 10 being their last official desktop style operating system.
Thankfully Linux has accessibility built into the main distributions.
If we see Windows discontinuing for desktop systems, we may hope for the developers of NVDA to move over to the Open source Linux platform.
Glenn the uncertain prognosticator
LOL
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Glen,
I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a waste of time.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .
~ Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6.
None of that matters anymore.
I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore.
I have training for my keynote.
All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself.
I admit it was good at that time but its not current.
Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote: Gene,
The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.
If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?
We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.
Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.
I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Because of poor training.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi Gene,
I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .
~ Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
brian <sackriderbrian45@...>
Gene how do you suggest that blind people obtain more than
screen reader? Nvda is free and you can't make payments on the
comercial screenreaders. Are you willing to start a fund for the
purchasse of screen readers or are you going to advocate that
thecompanies offer payment plans? I use nvda because it's all
that I can aford and rember that most blind people are living on
disability or ssi income and don't forget about the 80
unimployment rate of the blind. Your suggesion is a very good one
but it's not doable for the majority of the blind how do you hope
to change this? If you ask your commission for the blind you will
be told that only for a job if even then you will have to write up
a business plan. If you ask your local lions club you might be
told no or we would like to but that would take all of our budget
for the whole year. As I said your idea is not wrong but how can
it be done? This one reason that more blind people don't have a
computer it was for me for years. Your screen reader should never
cost more than the cost of a good high end pc. If you are lucky
enough to live in a town that has a local liberary for the blind
then might have a work station but thats not the case for alot of
blind people. It seems like every once in a while this comes up
that blind people should have this or that with no suggestion as
to how to bring this about it should just happen. We are not
richas some people seem to think we are. As to the matter of
proper training on the use of internet and screen reader it does
not seem tobe available. Training centers and rehab centers are
not doing this. It's just learn on your own thats been the case
for me and I am sure foralot of many blind people. When can we
get the proper training how will we get there and who will pay for
it? Blind people are just not tought problem solving skills at
many training centers. It's just basic survivle skills and no
more even if you request it.
Brian Sackrider
On 9/27/2018 1:52 PM, Gene wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I didn't say that this isn't
occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that
are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general
statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as
so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't
refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was
discussing how so many blind people don't realize the
advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the
Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my
last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try
other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do
something well, they might be able to do the thing better or
well using another screen-reader.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem
With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene,
All
it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone,
and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and
give up using a computer.
I
have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS,
and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of
inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come
to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that
happens to work.
It
sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it
is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I
don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of
training.
I
think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less
Blind people being able to access pages.
I
don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I
hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
That's largely
because of poor training, however. Not for everything,
but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten
or fifteen commands that are different for a different
screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.
Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
a different screen-reader may use different screen review
commands and a different command for read title bar and
certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would
be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use
screen-reader commands.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Wednesday,
September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site
Although
this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for
those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as
generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are
left behind.
Glenn
From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io
<nvda@nvda.groups.io> On
Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With
Submit Button On My Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy
Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is
unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea,
because it is, but you also have to understand that
accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch
up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not
going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers
catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing
a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased
security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't
work under one screen reader might work under another if you
happen to have a system with two or more screen readers
available. That can help to tease out where the issue might
lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit,
Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology
of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to
one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for
another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .
~ Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 02:35 PM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:
The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.
From the perspective of being unaffordable, particularly for those who lose their vision later in life, I have a lot of sympathy and agreement. Most of these services come through government agencies that serve special populations, and they've been subject to budget cut after budget cut after budget cut for decades now since tax cutting has become a "government sacrament" for those most politically active and influential. From "beyond their interest level," well, then, tough toenails. I can't make anyone, sighted or blind, do something they're not interested in doing, and it's no one else's job to decide that interest for any individual. And I actually disagree that the knowledge requirements of using a screen reader significantly outstrip those of sighted "point and click" users. The access method is certainly less convenient, as we're talking about using audition to replace vision in what is a visual media, but a huge amount of what's being taught is not screen reader specific, but is using the computer via the keyboard to do the same things that sighted people do with the mouse. Under Windows, just as there are multiple "clicking routes" to a given destination there are typically multiple "keyboard shortcutting routes" too. Instructors face a conundrum, in both cases, of teaching as many of these routes as possible, often with resulting information overload, or teaching one or two. Most of what people using screen readers are doing via the keyboard is not in any way related to the screen reader, but is related to the operating system/application program keyboard shortcuts. For many sighted folks (now pretty old at this point) who came to computers during the age of DOS and monochrome monitors, before WYSIWYG, they are still more comfortable with using the keyboard to do a very large number of what most of the rest of the sighted world, including myself, do by point and click. If Microsoft had ever jettisoned the use of keyboard shortcuts to parallel pretty much every point and click equivalent, even the hope of accessibility would have been down the tubes in the PC world a long time ago. I also teach primarily individuals who are adults who are in the process of losing their vision or recently blind. Most go through a period where they are dealing with the emotional baggage that this development carries with it, and they need to process that first. If I am referred someone who is still in the emotionally devastated and not yet ready to move forward yet stage, I do everything in my power to defer the training. They're not ready for it. By contrast, once they've done the processing of adjusting to the "new normal" for them I find that those who really want to get back to using the computer independently dive in to screen reader training with gusto. They're often less frustrated than I am at some of the accessibility issues we encounter. I've been driven nearly insane over the last 1.5 to 2 years at some of the developments in the world of web design and keep hoping we're going to reach a state of relative stasis again rather than constant rapid change. I also keep hoping that someone gets the point across that it simply is not done to make one web object with which people are already intimately familiar look like another with which they're equally familiar, but that it's not. --
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .
~ Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
I didn't say that no one would ever have problems
figuring out changes. But if people apply what I taught in my Internet
tutorial, they would have looked at the page, starting at the top when they
couldn't find what they were looking for. I teach other ways of finding
things and, if they fail, I tell people, you will have to just start reading the
page. Page after page now has buttons that say things like navigation menu
or some sort of descriptive phrase and thedy often say "collapsed." It
doesn't take superhuman deductive capaties to figure such things out. it
takes good training. There may well be times when a blind person can't
figure out this or that change. I haven't figured out every changge I've
come across on every page. But I figured out almost all of them. The
way a lot or perhaps most blind people are taught to use the Internet is
fundamentally flawed. When you see a button that says something about menu
or navigation menu and says collapsed and you don't see things you used to see
on a page, what should you do if you are taught well? You press the space
bar on the button and see what happens.
What do you do if you no longer see a download link
if you use the links list on a page where there should b e a download
control? Use the screen-reader find command from the top of the page and
search for the word download. If you don't find it, what do you do
next? Read the page from top to bottom and see if you see a structure that
may contain the download control that you need to open. there are ways to
approach these things that should be taught.
Not everything will be able to be figured
out. MOst will be.
I am not assuming that people have the skills to do
these things at present. I hav e said repeatedly that teaching is abysmal
for a lot of blind people regarding the Internet. the world is not going
to design itself around meeting the neeeds of blind people who get poor
training. Those who provide training should have a concerted effort to
reach and educate those who are interested enough to learn and training
materials should be rewritten so that those being trained know these
things. I did an Internet tutorial years ago where one of the phrases I
used most was, "using logic and inference". That is a phrase that should
be indellibly pounded into the heads of those receiving training. Logic
and inference.
And what should you do if you have no idea what
something like these buttons do? You try activating them and see. If
logic and inference fail, you try something else. Nothing I've tried
works. I see new buttons. I have no idea what they do. Let's
find out.
In today's security environment, doing some things
may be dangerous. But activating a button that may say menu or collapsed
is very unlikely to be.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site
Gene,
Things
change that proficient screenreader users cannot adapt easily to as
well.
For
example, I did not know about menus containing hidden
options.
So I
went to a page, and I am looking for a download button.
I
jump through looking for a download button with the letter B, and that does not
work.
I
list links, and press D and find no download button, nor arrowing through them
finds anything relating to a download option.
So I
use the find command looking for the word down and find
nothing.
Without
knowing that there is a new thing where content is different and there is
something new, I can see where someone who is a casual user will find a page
inaccessible.
You
look at computer usage like all screenreader users should be at the level of the
folks on this list, and the truth is, most are not, and will never be that
proficient, so for accessibility to be a reality, things need to improve, and
become more intuitive.
Having
a button that says menu closed is easily overlooked.
Perhaps
the sighted have some graphics there indicating what is hidden in that closed
menu, but there is no description to us, we have to know to open the closed
menus and see if that gives us what we want.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday,
September 27, 2018 1:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Let's examine an
example of worthless training as opposed to good training. Years ago,
Send Space had a
download link. If people were tought something such as to use the links
list and look for the link that said download, then what would happen when Send
Space changed it from a link to a button? If they were just taught by
rote, they would likely be unable to use the page. If they had been taught
to look at and understand web pages and how to find things, they would see that
the link was now a button and then, after they saw this, be able to go on
efficiently using the page as before. How many times have I seen blind
people claim that a site is no longer acccessible after it has been
changed? It wasn't inaccessible after the change. Changes had been
made in the site and rote memorization of the old layout didn't work any
longer.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM]
Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
W/all due respect, training is
not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic
principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over,
speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of
training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it
was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into
trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing
it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that
they
were going to get themselves into situations where they
were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to
understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at
1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed
that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that
I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been
taught.
Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of
mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating
a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things,
as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility.
I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we
can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree
w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use
a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I
recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when
we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a
constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the
other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many
technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're
in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into
this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will
overall only improve,
as a general rule.
On 9/27/18, Rosemarie
Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...>
wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right.
A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
> may get to the point
where we'll be totally locked out from using the
> computer. I agree with
you about the training. If things are constantly
> changing, then what
good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
> waste of
time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
>
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On
My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
>
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that
can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a
computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days
of DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible
pages that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to
find out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It
sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
>
for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion
that it is just a matter of training.
>
> I think with this most
recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
> being able to
access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend
here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
>
Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On
Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To:
nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On
My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because
of poor training, however. Not for everything, but
> for a lot of
what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
> that are
different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
> could
do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program
commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review
commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other
commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of
what is done doesn't
> use screen-reader
commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original
Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On
My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of
using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
> us who can do that,
but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
> then the
majority of users are left behind.
>
>
Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On
Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48
AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
>
Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM,
Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible
so cal your bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a
good idea, because it is, but you also have
> to understand that
accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
> catch
up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not
going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up
to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a
certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's
really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
>
screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system
with
> two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease
out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian
- Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build
17134
>
> The psychology of adultery has
been falsified by conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous
countries, that attraction to one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious
affection for another. Everybody knows that this is
> untrue. .
.
>
>
~ Bertrand
Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be
Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a
Time
https://brighter-vision.com
|
|
|
The level of training would be available if proper
training were done by those who do it in the first place. What used to be
Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of
training. Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far
as I know.
I'm a voice in the wilderness. If blind
people would join together and demand proper training, we might get
somewhere.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site
Gene,
The
level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited
income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember,
even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted
folks would learn to use the computer.
If
they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what
the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the
Blind be any different?
We
are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have
to.
Believe
me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the
most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a
screenreader.
I
find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday,
September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Because of poor
training.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM]
Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Hi
Gene,
I
gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of
whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much
less other operating systems.
Glenn
I didn't say that this
isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out
of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people
using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore
training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.
I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using
more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people
knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to
try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something
well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another
screen-reader.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM]
Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Gene,
All
it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause
them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a
computer.
I
have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent
hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around,
unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that
happens to work.
It
sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for
screenreaders to keep up.
I
don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of
training.
I
think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being
able to access pages.
I
don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I
hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
That's largely because
of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what
people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for
a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most
of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different
screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command
for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would
be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader
commands.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Wednesday, September
26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM]
Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Although
this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do
that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority
of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48
AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
[SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens
wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank
and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is,
but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some
extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed,
and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen
readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain
thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really
generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader
might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen
readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might
lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10
Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology of
adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in
monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a
serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. .
.
~ Bertrand
Russell
|
|
|
Hi, Gene, With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds. Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place. What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training. Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know. I'm a voice in the wilderness. If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Gene, The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level. Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer. If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different? We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to. Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader. I find it disappointing, but that is the truth. Glenn Because of poor training. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Hi Gene, I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems. Glenn I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Gene, All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer. I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work. It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up. I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training. I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages. I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here. I hope I’m wrong about the trend. Glenn That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind. Glenn From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote: Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
-- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
I didn't say anything about what screen-reader
people should use. Everything I say applies as much to NVDA as to any
other good screen-reader. its training that is the problem. How to
accomplish good training for blind people in generall is a good question.
I don't havbe all the answers. I'm not sure if I have many. If a
screen-reader that is free and high quality could be created, maybe training
material can be created in a community effort as well. I leave the
question opened and we'll see what sort of suggestions we get.
Maybe one way to do it would be to build on the
already existing structure for cooperation that exists for NVDA development but
to use or adapt the framework for training development. I haven't looked
at the training material that is charged for and is available through
the NVDA site. I don't know to what extent it may begin to meet this
need. But I don't doubt that far more is needed.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site
Gene how do you suggest that blind people obtain more than
screen reader? Nvda is free and you can't make payments on the comercial
screenreaders. Are you willing to start a fund for the purchasse of screen
readers or are you going to advocate that thecompanies offer payment
plans? I use nvda because it's all that I can aford and rember that most
blind people are living on disability or ssi income and don't forget about the
80 unimployment rate of the blind. Your suggesion is a very good one but
it's not doable for the majority of the blind how do you hope to change
this? If you ask your commission for the blind you will be told that only
for a job if even then you will have to write up a business plan. If you
ask your local lions club you might be told no or we would like to but that
would take all of our budget for the whole year. As I said your idea is
not wrong but how can it be done? This one reason that more blind people
don't have a computer it was for me for years. Your screen reader should
never cost more than the cost of a good high end pc. If you are lucky
enough to live in a town that has a local liberary for the blind then might have
a work station but thats not the case for alot of blind people. It seems
like every once in a while this comes up that blind people should have this or
that with no suggestion as to how to bring this about it should just
happen. We are not richas some people seem to think we are. As to
the matter of proper training on the use of internet and screen reader it does
not seem tobe available. Training centers and rehab centers are not doing
this. It's just learn on your own thats been the case for me and I am sure
foralot of many blind people. When can we get the proper training how will
we get there and who will pay for it? Blind people are just not tought
problem solving skills at many training centers. It's just basic survivle
skills and no more even if you request it.
Brian Sackrider
On 9/27/2018 1:52 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the
Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to
say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one
screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore
training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the
Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the
advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or
elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the
thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when
one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the
thing better or well using another screen-reader.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit
Button On My Banking Site
Gene,
All
it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause
them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a
computer.
I
have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent
hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around,
unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that
happens to work.
It
sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for
screenreaders to keep up.
I
don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of
training.
I
think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
being able to access pages.
I
don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I
hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
That's largely
because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of
what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are
different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do
before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a
different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of
what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use
screen-reader commands.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Wednesday,
September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Although
this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can
do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the
majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens
wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your
bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is,
but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some
extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding
speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the
screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a
certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's
really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen
reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or
more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the
issue might lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10
Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology
of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in
monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist
with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is
untrue. . .
~ Bertrand
Russell
|
|
|
She's right!
You're talking about training and retraining and
retraining. Some of us have lives to live.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:37
PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda]
Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi,
Gene,
With
all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice
megamall site. I
i'm
sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world
won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries
online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's
no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my
sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really
accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to
have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout
of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself
on instacart but it didn't work--not even with
work-arounds.
Rosemarie
From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To:
nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem
With Submit Button On My Banking Site
The level of training
would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the
first place. What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that
evokes a bird offers a lot of training. Nothing I am describing is
taught in all that training, as far as I know.
I'm a voice in the
wilderness. If blind people would join together and demand proper
training, we might get somewhere.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Gene,
The
level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited
income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember,
even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most
sighted folks would learn to use the computer.
If
they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond
what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should
the Blind be any different?
We
are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not
have to.
Believe
me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only
the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a
screenreader.
I
find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn
Because of poor
training.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Hi
Gene,
I
gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most
of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader,
much less other operating systems.
Glenn
I didn't say that
this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that
are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about
blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the
result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to
the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize
the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or
elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the
thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when
one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the
thing better or well using another screen-reader.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Gene,
All
it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause
them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a
computer.
I
have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent
hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around,
unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that
happens to work.
It
sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for
screenreaders to keep up.
I
don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of
training.
I
think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
being able to access pages.
I
don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I
hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
That's largely
because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of
what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are
different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do
before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a
different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of
what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use
screen-reader commands.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Wednesday,
September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Although
this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can
do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the
majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48
AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
[SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens
wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your
bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is,
but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some
extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding
speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the
screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a
certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's
really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen
reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or
more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the
issue might lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10
Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology
of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in
monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist
with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is
untrue. . .
~ Bertrand
Russell
|
|
|
Hi, Sean,
When I got my very first computer, it had a demo version of Window-eyes. It had windows 98 as its operating system. I took a computer class at the Braille Institute ad they taught Jaws. I later saved up some money and bought tutorials. I pretty much did everything on my own. As far as screen readers, I learned Jaws, window-eyes and system access. Now I just use nvda AND IT SUITS MY NEEDS VERY WELL.
rOSEMARIE
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 2:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6. None of that matters anymore. I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore. I have training for my keynote. All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself. I admit it was good at that time but its not current. Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated. On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote: Gene,
The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.
If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?
We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.
Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.
I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Because of poor training.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi Gene,
I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .
~ Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
You are generalizing from a few specifics, not
proper logic. I didn't say all sites are accessible. Neither did I
say that sites don't change. My point is that proper training would allow
blind people to figure out, in most cases, how to use sites when they do change
or figure out new ones. Of course, some sites are or become
inaccessible. I'm not talking about those.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site
Hi,
Gene,
With
all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice
megamall site. I
i'm
sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world
won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online
with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer
accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister
help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've
talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use
their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get
familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it
didn't work--not even with work-arounds.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday,
September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
The level of training
would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first
place. What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a
bird offers a lot of training. Nothing I am describing is taught in all
that training, as far as I know.
I'm a voice in the
wilderness. If blind people would join together and demand proper
training, we might get somewhere.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM]
Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Gene,
The
level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited
income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember,
even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted
folks would learn to use the computer.
If
they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what
the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the
Blind be any different?
We
are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have
to.
Believe
me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the
most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a
screenreader.
I
find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn
Because of poor
training.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM]
Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Hi
Gene,
I
gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of
whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much
less other operating systems.
Glenn
I didn't say that this
isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out
of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people
using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore
training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.
I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using
more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people
knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to
try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something
well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another
screen-reader.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM]
Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Gene,
All
it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause
them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a
computer.
I
have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent
hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around,
unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that
happens to work.
It
sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for
screenreaders to keep up.
I
don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of
training.
I
think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being
able to access pages.
I
don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I
hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
That's largely because
of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what
people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for
a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most
of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different
screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command
for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would
be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader
commands.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Wednesday, September
26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM]
Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Although
this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do
that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority
of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48
AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
[SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens
wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank
and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is,
but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some
extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed,
and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen
readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain
thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really
generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader
might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen
readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might
lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10
Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology of
adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in
monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a
serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. .
.
~ Bertrand
Russell
|
|
|
I'm not talking about training and retraining and
retraining. I'm talking about proper training in the first
place.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site
She's right!
You're talking about training and retraining and
retraining. Some of us have lives to live.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:37
PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda]
Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi,
Gene,
With
all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice
megamall site. I
i'm
sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world
won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries
online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's
no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my
sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really
accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to
have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout
of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself
on instacart but it didn't work--not even with
work-arounds.
Rosemarie
From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To:
nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem
With Submit Button On My Banking Site
The level of training
would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the
first place. What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that
evokes a bird offers a lot of training. Nothing I am describing is
taught in all that training, as far as I know.
I'm a voice in the
wilderness. If blind people would join together and demand proper
training, we might get somewhere.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Gene,
The
level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited
income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember,
even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most
sighted folks would learn to use the computer.
If
they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond
what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should
the Blind be any different?
We
are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not
have to.
Believe
me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only
the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a
screenreader.
I
find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn
Because of poor
training.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Hi
Gene,
I
gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most
of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader,
much less other operating systems.
Glenn
I didn't say that
this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that
are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about
blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the
result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to
the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize
the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or
elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the
thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when
one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the
thing better or well using another screen-reader.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September
27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Gene,
All
it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause
them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a
computer.
I
have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent
hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around,
unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that
happens to work.
It
sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for
screenreaders to keep up.
I
don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of
training.
I
think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
being able to access pages.
I
don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I
hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
That's largely
because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of
what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are
different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do
before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a
different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of
what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use
screen-reader commands.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Wednesday,
September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED
SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
Although
this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can
do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the
majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48
AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
[SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking
Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens
wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your
bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is,
but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some
extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding
speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the
screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a
certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's
really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen
reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or
more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the
issue might lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10
Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology
of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in
monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist
with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is
untrue. . .
~ Bertrand
Russell
|
|
|
Hi Group,
Well as long as this thread has drifted so far off the original
topic of my submit button, I thought I would keep pushing it
further <laugh>.
Here is what I do when a series of shortcut (keys or techniques)
no longer work on a specific page. Immediately, I deduce (a mental
process that is in the current United States less and less in
fashion) that something major has changed on the page. What I do
then is to closely examine, line by line and if necessary word by
word, the page from top to bottom. Most times (at least 75% or
so) I see the problem right away: a button has replaced a link; a
group of radio buttons has replaced a group of check boxes; a menu
button exists which when pressed, reveals a series of links,
button, check boxes and so on. If that doesn't work, then I look
closely at pertinent text. I check out each word and sometimes
references by the screen reader to unlabeled links or graphics and
I start clicking on them: either by the space bar, going in and
out of forms/browse mode, or routing mouse to application cursor
and single or double clicking the item. In about 90% of the
remaining undetectable changes, this works. For the remaining 5 or
so percent, I ask sources like this list to check things out and
see if anyone else is having issues and sometimes, I get pertinent
advice from such other sources that help me solve about 75% of the
remaining 5% or so that seem at first problematic. At least for
me, that leaves about 1 or 2 percent of the pages I visit s
largely inaccessible. Sometimes, I eventually figure out a work
around and sometimes I'm out of luck. Simple human reason solves
many of what at first seem unsolvable issues or problems.
On 9/27/2018 2:30 PM, Ervin, Glenn
wrote:
Gene,
Things change that proficient
screenreader users cannot adapt easily to as well.
For example, I did not know about
menus containing hidden options.
So I went to a page, and I am looking
for a download button.
I jump through looking for a download
button with the letter B, and that does not work.
I list links, and press D and find no
download button, nor arrowing through them finds anything
relating to a download option.
So I use the find command looking for
the word down and find nothing.
Without knowing that there is a new
thing where content is different and there is something new,
I can see where someone who is a casual user will find a
page inaccessible.
You look at computer usage like all
screenreader users should be at the level of the folks on
this list, and the truth is, most are not, and will never be
that proficient, so for accessibility to be a reality,
things need to improve, and become more intuitive.
Having a button that says menu closed
is easily overlooked.
Perhaps the sighted have some
graphics there indicating what is hidden in that closed
menu, but there is no description to us, we have to know to
open the closed menus and see if that gives us what we want.
Glenn
Let's examine an example of
worthless training as opposed to good training. Years
ago,
Send Space had a download link. If
people were tought something such as to use the links list
and look for the link that said download, then what would
happen when Send Space changed it from a link to a
button? If they were just taught by rote, they would
likely be unable to use the page. If they had been taught
to look at and understand web pages and how to find
things, they would see that the link was now a button and
then, after they saw this, be able to go on efficiently
using the page as before. How many times have I seen
blind people claim that a site is no longer acccessible
after it has been changed? It wasn't inaccessible after
the change. Changes had been made in the site and rote
memorization of the old layout didn't work any longer.
----- Original Message -----
Sent:
Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:26 AM
Subject:
Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit
Button On My Banking Site
W/all due respect, training is not a waste
of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not
simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's
just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is
indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was
a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into
trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &,
knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that
they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to
understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may
at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru
expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie,
that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools
they'd
been taught.
Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of
mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby
eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved
things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating
accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we
can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be
able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've
ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example,
& when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have
to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility
guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last
century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I
think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only
improve,
as a general rule.
On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...>
wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling
me one time that it
> may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out
from using the
> computer. I agree with you about the training. If things
are constantly
> changing, then what good is it to have all that training?
It would be just a
> waste of time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With
Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
> All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for
someone, and that can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using
a computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of
DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages
that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find
out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It sure seems like more and more of this is happening,
and it is difficult
> for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a
matter of training.
>
> I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and
less Blind people
> being able to access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With
Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because of poor training, however. Not
for everything, but
> for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or
fifteen commands
> that are different for a different screen-reader and do a
lot of what you
> could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or
program commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review
commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other
commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of what
is done doesn't
> use screen-reader commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With
Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is
okay for those of
> us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally
accepted practice,
> then the majority of users are left behind.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit
Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your
bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it
is, but you also have
> to understand that accessibility will always be, to some
extent, a game of
> catch up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's
not going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up
to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a
certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's really generally helpful to check to see if what
doesn't work under one
> screen reader might work under another if you happen to
have a system with
> two or more screen readers available. That can help to
tease out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build
17134
>
> The psychology of adultery has been falsified by
conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to
one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody
knows that this is
> untrue. . .
>
> ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
Hi Group,
What you do is to get a demo of JAWS and any other paid
commercial software and use it in cases where NVDA doesn't work.
Also, if you are using Windows 10 (and hopefully any further
Windows upgrade in the future) you can use Narrator free of charge
for problem areas.
On 9/27/2018 6:09 PM, brian wrote:
Gene how do you suggest that blind people obtain more than
screen reader? Nvda is free and you can't make payments on the
comercial screenreaders. Are you willing to start a fund for
the purchasse of screen readers or are you going to advocate
that thecompanies offer payment plans? I use nvda because it's
all that I can aford and rember that most blind people are
living on disability or ssi income and don't forget about the 80
unimployment rate of the blind. Your suggesion is a very good
one but it's not doable for the majority of the blind how do you
hope to change this? If you ask your commission for the blind
you will be told that only for a job if even then you will have
to write up a business plan. If you ask your local lions club
you might be told no or we would like to but that would take all
of our budget for the whole year. As I said your idea is not
wrong but how can it be done? This one reason that more blind
people don't have a computer it was for me for years. Your
screen reader should never cost more than the cost of a good
high end pc. If you are lucky enough to live in a town that has
a local liberary for the blind then might have a work station
but thats not the case for alot of blind people. It seems like
every once in a while this comes up that blind people should
have this or that with no suggestion as to how to bring this
about it should just happen. We are not richas some people seem
to think we are. As to the matter of proper training on the use
of internet and screen reader it does not seem tobe available.
Training centers and rehab centers are not doing this. It's
just learn on your own thats been the case for me and I am sure
foralot of many blind people. When can we get the proper
training how will we get there and who will pay for it? Blind
people are just not tought problem solving skills at many
training centers. It's just basic survivle skills and no more
even if you request it.
Brian Sackrider
On 9/27/2018 1:52 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I
haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to
say. I am making a general statement about blind people using
only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of
poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to
the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't
realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on
the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said
in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing
to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader
doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing
better or well using another screen-reader.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem
With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene,
All it takes is one element that is
a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to
stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and
teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours
stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find
out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of
this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders
to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion
that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent
trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able
to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I
see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
That's largely because of poor
training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of
what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen
commands that are different for a different
screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.
Most of what people do uses Windows or program
commands. a different screen-reader may use different
screen review commands and a different command for read
title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what
people do would be the same because a lot of what is
done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
----- Original Message -----
Sent:
Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject:
Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit
Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using
multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do
that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted
practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<nvda@nvda.groups.io> On
Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With
Submit Button On My Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy
Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is
unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good
idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that
accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not
going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen
readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason
for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around
increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what
doesn't work under one screen reader might work under
another if you happen to have a system with two or more
screen readers available. That can help to tease out where
the issue might lie.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The
psychology of adultery has been falsified by
conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous
countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist
with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows
that this is untrue. . .
~ Bertrand
Russell
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 07:58 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not talking about training and retraining and retraining. I'm talking about proper training in the first place.
And part of that proper training is warning people that things will change and break, constantly, and they will be called upon to do exactly what Mr. Canazzi has said, go through the page and figure out exactly what has changed. Sometimes that means turning to your screen reader commands reference, too. Yes, this is a PITA. But if you can't or won't do this your world, for any you, as a screen reader user will just keep becoming inaccessible again and again and again with no recourse. That's seldom the case if you take the time to try to figure out what changed or ask someone you know who's sighted (or blind) and uses the same site as you do if they've noticed it change lately, and how. The fact of the matter is that for instant analysis of what's changed in a visual medium asking a friend who's sighted will often be faster. There is no sin, nor dependence, in reaching out to other people when you get stuck and it's often the fastest way to get unstuck. This is all the more true if you've tried reviewing the page and find yourself so frustrated you want to damage something or someone. No one thinks clearly once they reach that point and walking away for a while is a very good idea when that occurs. --
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .
~ Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
Hi, Brian, You're definitely right. There's nothing wrong with asking a sighted friend or relative for help if you're having trouble with a site. I tried different ways to navigate instacart but found it very difficult. That's why I ask my sister to help me place a grocery order. Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 5:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 07:58 PM, Gene wrote: I'm not talking about training and retraining and retraining. I'm talking about proper training in the first place.
And part of that proper training is warning people that things will change and break, constantly, and they will be called upon to do exactly what Mr. Canazzi has said, go through the page and figure out exactly what has changed. Sometimes that means turning to your screen reader commands reference, too.
Yes, this is a PITA. But if you can't or won't do this your world, for any you, as a screen reader user will just keep becoming inaccessible again and again and again with no recourse. That's seldom the case if you take the time to try to figure out what changed or ask someone you know who's sighted (or blind) and uses the same site as you do if they've noticed it change lately, and how. The fact of the matter is that for instant analysis of what's changed in a visual medium asking a friend who's sighted will often be faster.
There is no sin, nor dependence, in reaching out to other people when you get stuck and it's often the fastest way to get unstuck. This is all the more true if you've tried reviewing the page and find yourself so frustrated you want to damage something or someone. No one thinks clearly once they reach that point and walking away for a while is a very good idea when that occurs.
-- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
Hi, Ron, That makes perfect sense. The more tools you have, the more tasks you can get done. Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Hi Group, What you do is to get a demo of JAWS and any other paid commercial software and use it in cases where NVDA doesn't work. Also, if you are using Windows 10 (and hopefully any further Windows upgrade in the future) you can use Narrator free of charge for problem areas. On 9/27/2018 6:09 PM, brian wrote: Gene how do you suggest that blind people obtain more than screen reader? Nvda is free and you can't make payments on the comercial screenreaders. Are you willing to start a fund for the purchasse of screen readers or are you going to advocate that thecompanies offer payment plans? I use nvda because it's all that I can aford and rember that most blind people are living on disability or ssi income and don't forget about the 80 unimployment rate of the blind. Your suggesion is a very good one but it's not doable for the majority of the blind how do you hope to change this? If you ask your commission for the blind you will be told that only for a job if even then you will have to write up a business plan. If you ask your local lions club you might be told no or we would like to but that would take all of our budget for the whole year. As I said your idea is not wrong but how can it be done? This one reason that more blind people don't have a computer it was for me for years. Your screen reader should never cost more than the cost of a good high end pc. If you are lucky enough to live in a town that has a local liberary for the blind then might have a work station but thats not the case for alot of blind people. It seems like every once in a while this comes up that blind people should have this or that with no suggestion as to how to bring this about it should just happen. We are not richas some people seem to think we are. As to the matter of proper training on the use of internet and screen reader it does not seem tobe available. Training centers and rehab centers are not doing this. It's just learn on your own thats been the case for me and I am sure foralot of many blind people. When can we get the proper training how will we get there and who will pay for it? Blind people are just not tought problem solving skills at many training centers. It's just basic survivle skills and no more even if you request it. Brian Sackrider On 9/27/2018 1:52 PM, Gene wrote: I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Gene, All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer. I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work. It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up. I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training. I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages. I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here. I hope I’m wrong about the trend. Glenn That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind. Glenn From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote: Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
-- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
Glen: Arlene here! I agree with you! I know web coding is constantly
changing making it hard for screen readers to keep up with these
things. I hope you are wrong about how these pages are going to be so
inaccessible for us blind users to access sites for our use. If
whoever has a problem with the submit button on the banking site. You
may want to call your bank to get help from them. Or before you call
the bank. Why not ask a sighted friend who you trust to come over to
your house? Try doing your banking in that person's presence. Ask
your friend what he she sees at the submit button. That's if you have
any sighted friends around. If not just call the bank for help! Have
them helping you over the phone and them on the same site as you are.
then if they hear you having trouble with the submit button then ask
the worker what he she sees at the submit button! Just a thought!
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/27/18, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote: Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but
for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
use screen-reader commands.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the
issue might lie.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is
untrue. . .
~ Bertrand Russell
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Well I often use nvda and narator together with narator in scan mode for times where I need it.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/28/2018 12:02 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: Hi Group,
What you do is to get a demo of JAWS and any other paid commercial software and use it in cases where NVDA doesn't work. Also, if you are using Windows 10 (and hopefully any further Windows upgrade in the future) you can use Narrator free of charge for problem areas.
On 9/27/2018 6:09 PM, brian wrote:
Gene how do you suggest that blind people obtain more than screen reader? Nvda is free and you can't make payments on the comercial screenreaders. Are you willing to start a fund for the purchasse of screen readers or are you going to advocate that thecompanies offer payment plans? I use nvda because it's all that I can aford and rember that most blind people are living on disability or ssi income and don't forget about the 80 unimployment rate of the blind. Your suggesion is a very good one but it's not doable for the majority of the blind how do you hope to change this? If you ask your commission for the blind you will be told that only for a job if even then you will have to write up a business plan. If you ask your local lions club you might be told no or we would like to but that would take all of our budget for the whole year. As I said your idea is not wrong but how can it be done? This one reason that more blind people don't have a computer it was for me for years. Your screen reader should never cost more than the cost of a good high end pc. If you are lucky enough to live in a town that has a local liberary for the blind then might have a work station but thats not the case for alot of blind people. It seems like every once in a while this comes up that blind people should have this or that with no suggestion as to how to bring this about it should just happen. We are not richas some people seem to think we are. As to the matter of proper training on the use of internet and screen reader it does not seem tobe available. Training centers and rehab centers are not doing this. It's just learn on your own thats been the case for me and I am sure foralot of many blind people. When can we get the proper training how will we get there and who will pay for it? Blind people are just not tought problem solving skills at many training centers. It's just basic survivle skills and no more even if you request it.
Brian Sackrider
On 9/27/2018 1:52 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:*Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
*Sent:*Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:*Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and
tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./
~ Bertrand Russell
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