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Thunderbird 68.8.0: Unwanted Verbosity Is Improved But Not Fixed


David Goldfield
 

Hello.

The release notes for TB 68.8.0 indicates that the extra messages heard by screen readers has been addressed. While the situation may have improved I don't believe that this issue has been totally addressed.

1. When pressing enter to open a message NVDA begins to announce something which sounds like "loading message" but the announcement is usually cut off fairly quickly. I suspect that this could be happening more on slower machines.

2. When a message that I am composing is being automatically saved to my drafts folder the status message indicating this is clearly being announced, as in "copying message to drafts folder." Should this be happening?

3. When I press ctrl-enter to send a message I sometimes hear the beginning of a status announcement but it gets cut off very quickly and I'm not able to determine what it's trying to tell me. I guess I should load the speech viewer to better capture some of what is being announced but I don't recall hearing any of this information prior to this problem initially being introduced.


--
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi David,

I do get all three of these issues, but they are of minor concern to me.  The one thing you didn't mention is the reading of the underlying address when you tab to or arrow to a clickable link in an open message.  This is really annoying to me and happens one hundred percent of the time.

On 5/10/2020 3:27 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Hello.

The release notes for TB 68.8.0 indicates that the extra messages heard by screen readers has been addressed. While the situation may have improved I don't believe that this issue has been totally addressed.

1. When pressing enter to open a message NVDA begins to announce something which sounds like "loading message" but the announcement is usually cut off fairly quickly. I suspect that this could be happening more on slower machines.

2. When a message that I am composing is being automatically saved to my drafts folder the status message indicating this is clearly being announced, as in "copying message to drafts folder." Should this be happening?

3. When I press ctrl-enter to send a message I sometimes hear the beginning of a status announcement but it gets cut off very quickly and I'm not able to determine what it's trying to tell me. I guess I should load the speech viewer to better capture some of what is being announced but I don't recall hearing any of this information prior to this problem initially being introduced.

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


 

Copy and paste everything you just said and file a bug report. See link below.

https://www-archive.mozilla.org/support/thunderbird/bugs


Luke Davis
 

On Sun, 10 May 2020, David Goldfield wrote:

2. When a message that I am composing is being automatically saved to my drafts folder the status message indicating this is clearly being announced, as in "copying message to drafts folder." Should this be happening?
Does a sighted person see some kind of indication that this is happening?

3. When I press ctrl-enter to send a message I sometimes hear the beginning of a status announcement but it gets cut off very quickly and I'm not able to determine what it's trying to tell me. I guess I should load the speech viewer to better capture some of what is being announced
I would suggest the speech history add-on. It's a bit more convenient than the speech viewer.

Luke


 

Here's the direct link to filing a TB bug. The developers are not on this list.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Thunderbird


 

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 02:42 PM, Luke Davis wrote:
Does a sighted person see some kind of indication that this is happening?
If said content is coming from the status bar, then yes, at least provided the status bar is set to be viewed, and it is by default.

The difference being that most of us couldn't give a flying rat's patootie that this is happening, and would never even notice it.  This is one of the difficulties with accessibility in that, for things like the status bar, it tends to be an "all or nothing" affair within a given class of message.  If this is bothersome, requesting that the "copying message to drafts folder" be put in a class below that which would be seen by the screen reader is what would get rid of it.  I don't know exactly how that's done, but the developers do, as the screen reader does not read each and every thing that occurs in the status bar.

This would be a feature request as opposed to a bug report, or at least I'd consider it a feature change, as one could argue that either state is better than the other, depending on one's personal preferences.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 


Ali Savas
 

Hi,

the problem here is that the verbosity under Thunderbird with JAWS is
not the same as with NVDA.

Maybe the developers of NVDA can do something about the verbosity.

Regards
Ali


 

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 02:49 PM, Robert Kingett wrote:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Thunderbird
And just to clarify my last statement, as Bugzilla and GitHub behave slightly differently, you do go through the bug reporting mechanism under Bugzilla to file a feature request as well as a bug.

For a true bug, the radio button, This is a defect report, is selected while for a feature request the radio button, This is a request for enhancement, is selected instead.

If you pick "the wrong one" in the eyes of the folks at Mozilla, it will end up being recategorized by them.  But if you know you're making a feature request from the outset, it makes sense to identify it as such.  There are times (like this one) where one could argue that the line is far from perfectly clear.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 


 

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 02:56 PM, Ali Savas wrote:
Maybe the developers of NVDA can do something about the verbosity.
And this is true.  However, just as Mr. Kingett suggested filing a bug report with Mozilla, the same applies as far as NVDA, but using the GitHub system:

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues

New Issue button (after, of course, having searched to see if the issue you're about to report may have been reported already by someone else, in which case you could enter a comment to it).

While making posts to these lists is entirely appropriate as an awareness-raising mechanism for the membership, it is not appropriate if you want to have those who are capable of fixing something know that there's a problem to begin with.  That requires bug reporting, no matter the software involved.  In a case like this, it likely requires two bug reports, as it is unclear what needs to be changed.  And the fact that JAWS does one thing while NVDA does another is no guarantee that NVDA is "wrong" and JAWS is "right."  There are all sorts of subtle differences in behavior based on both intentional action and different decisions being made about "what's best."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 


David Goldfield
 

I have filed a bug in Bugzilla. Please feel free to add to this if I have missed anything.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 5/10/2020 2:49 PM, Robert Kingett wrote:

Here's the direct link to filing a TB bug. The developers are not on this list.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Thunderbird


Brian Moore
 

The other thing which gets announced regardless of status bar state is imap syncing such as "downloading message 6 of 14 in spam" etc. Because I have 4 email accounts, these imap syncing announcements are frequent and interrupt work regularly.

This is new as of version 68.  Not sure if I should add to David's bug or file a separate one because it is basically the same issue.

Brian.

Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123
On 5/10/2020 2:52 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 02:42 PM, Luke Davis wrote:
Does a sighted person see some kind of indication that this is happening?
If said content is coming from the status bar, then yes, at least provided the status bar is set to be viewed, and it is by default.

The difference being that most of us couldn't give a flying rat's patootie that this is happening, and would never even notice it.  This is one of the difficulties with accessibility in that, for things like the status bar, it tends to be an "all or nothing" affair within a given class of message.  If this is bothersome, requesting that the "copying message to drafts folder" be put in a class below that which would be seen by the screen reader is what would get rid of it.  I don't know exactly how that's done, but the developers do, as the screen reader does not read each and every thing that occurs in the status bar.

This would be a feature request as opposed to a bug report, or at least I'd consider it a feature change, as one could argue that either state is better than the other, depending on one's personal preferences.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 


David Goldfield
 

I did remember to mention it in the bug which I just filed in Bugzilla.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 5/10/2020 9:12 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi David,

I do get all three of these issues, but they are of minor concern to me.  The one thing you didn't mention is the reading of the underlying address when you tab to or arrow to a clickable link in an open message.  This is really annoying to me and happens one hundred percent of the time.


On 5/10/2020 3:27 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Hello.

The release notes for TB 68.8.0 indicates that the extra messages heard by screen readers has been addressed. While the situation may have improved I don't believe that this issue has been totally addressed.

1. When pressing enter to open a message NVDA begins to announce something which sounds like "loading message" but the announcement is usually cut off fairly quickly. I suspect that this could be happening more on slower machines.

2. When a message that I am composing is being automatically saved to my drafts folder the status message indicating this is clearly being announced, as in "copying message to drafts folder." Should this be happening?

3. When I press ctrl-enter to send a message I sometimes hear the beginning of a status announcement but it gets cut off very quickly and I'm not able to determine what it's trying to tell me. I guess I should load the speech viewer to better capture some of what is being announced but I don't recall hearing any of this information prior to this problem initially being introduced.




Luke Davis
 

On Sun, 10 May 2020, Brian Moore wrote:

The other thing which gets announced regardless of status bar state is imap syncing such as "downloading message 6 of 14 in spam" etc. Because I have 4
email accounts, these imap syncing announcements are frequent and interrupt work regularly.
You can probably mute those with a regular expression in a dictionary.
I'm going on your text only; you might have to look at the log or speech viewer to see what the exact text sent to the synth is, but something like this might work for you:

^downloading *message *\d+ * of *\d+ *in.*$

With nothing as the replacement text.

Luke


Brian Moore
 

Hi  That's a good though that I didn't consider.  Since I never bother with speech dictionaries, I didn't realize that they took regular expressions.  I did know this at one point because I think there was a question about this on the NVDA certification exam when I took it but this is a good idea. Shall experiment.



Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123

On 5/10/2020 4:41 PM, Luke Davis wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2020, Brian Moore wrote:

The other thing which gets announced regardless of status bar state is imap syncing such as "downloading message 6 of 14 in spam" etc. Because I have 4
email accounts, these imap syncing announcements are frequent and interrupt work regularly.
You can probably mute those with a regular expression in a dictionary.
I'm going on your text only; you might have to look at the log or speech viewer to see what the exact text sent to the synth is, but something like this might work for you:

^downloading *message *\d+ * of *\d+ *in.*$

With nothing as the replacement text.

Luke



Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

I am now a Mozilla Bugzilla contributor.  (Mozilla Bugzilla: sounds a bit like Megilla Gorilla, but I digress!)  It's not really very hard once you get registered.  I will report on bugs for both Thunderbird and Firefox in the future. I reported on the verbosity issue with the underlying addresses of hyperlinks in Thunderbird being announced by screen readers.  I used to be a private beta tester for JAWS years ago, so it's  really not too hard.  The website is reasonably accessible and the forms are as well.


On 5/10/2020 3:05 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 02:49 PM, Robert Kingett wrote:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Thunderbird
And just to clarify my last statement, as Bugzilla and GitHub behave slightly differently, you do go through the bug reporting mechanism under Bugzilla to file a feature request as well as a bug.

For a true bug, the radio button, This is a defect report, is selected while for a feature request the radio button, This is a request for enhancement, is selected instead.

If you pick "the wrong one" in the eyes of the folks at Mozilla, it will end up being recategorized by them.  But if you know you're making a feature request from the outset, it makes sense to identify it as such.  There are times (like this one) where one could argue that the line is far from perfectly clear.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

      ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


 

I have seen the same thing as you have, David. I don't know what the issue is.





On 5/10/2020 3:27 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Hello.

The release notes for TB 68.8.0 indicates that the extra messages heard by screen readers has been addressed. While the situation may have improved I don't believe that this issue has been totally addressed.

1. When pressing enter to open a message NVDA begins to announce something which sounds like "loading message" but the announcement is usually cut off fairly quickly. I suspect that this could be happening more on slower machines.

2. When a message that I am composing is being automatically saved to my drafts folder the status message indicating this is clearly being announced, as in "copying message to drafts folder." Should this be happening?

3. When I press ctrl-enter to send a message I sometimes hear the beginning of a status announcement but it gets cut off very quickly and I'm not able to determine what it's trying to tell me. I guess I should load the speech viewer to better capture some of what is being announced but I don't recall hearing any of this information prior to this problem initially being introduced.



Sarah k Alawami
 

I also hear it, sending message, connecting to smtp server, etc. And I don't have a slow machine either.
This is with 68. Not sure if it is nvda related. The rest of the stuff doesn't speak though, and I have the status line hidden to my knowledge.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 19 May 2020, at 14:44, Governor staten wrote:

I have seen the same thing as you have, David. I don't know what the issue is.





On 5/10/2020 3:27 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Hello.

The release notes for TB 68.8.0 indicates that the extra messages heard by screen readers has been addressed. While the situation may have improved I don't believe that this issue has been totally addressed.

1. When pressing enter to open a message NVDA begins to announce something which sounds like "loading message" but the announcement is usually cut off fairly quickly. I suspect that this could be happening more on slower machines.

2. When a message that I am composing is being automatically saved to my drafts folder the status message indicating this is clearly being announced, as in "copying message to drafts folder." Should this be happening?

3. When I press ctrl-enter to send a message I sometimes hear the beginning of a status announcement but it gets cut off very quickly and I'm not able to determine what it's trying to tell me. I guess I should load the speech viewer to better capture some of what is being announced but I don't recall hearing any of this information prior to this problem initially being introduced.



David Goldfield
 

I've filed a new bug with Mozilla documenting these issues.


On 5/19/2020 6:00 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I also hear it, sending message, connecting to smtp server, etc. And I don't have a slow machine either.
This is with 68. Not sure if it is nvda related. The rest of the stuff doesn't speak though, and I have the status line hidden to my knowledge.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 19 May 2020, at 14:44, Governor staten wrote:

I have seen the same thing as you have, David. I don't know what the issue is.





On 5/10/2020 3:27 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Hello.

The release notes for TB 68.8.0 indicates that the extra messages heard by screen readers has been addressed. While the situation may have improved I don't believe that this issue has been totally addressed.

1. When pressing enter to open a message NVDA begins to announce something which sounds like "loading message" but the announcement is usually cut off fairly quickly. I suspect that this could be happening more on slower machines.

2. When a message that I am composing is being automatically saved to my drafts folder the status message indicating this is clearly being announced, as in "copying message to drafts folder." Should this be happening?

3. When I press ctrl-enter to send a message I sometimes hear the beginning of a status announcement but it gets cut off very quickly and I'm not able to determine what it's trying to tell me. I guess I should load the speech viewer to better capture some of what is being announced but I don't recall hearing any of this information prior to this problem initially being introduced.