Topics

two different problems with NVDA and reading email


Bob Cavanaugh
 

Hi all,
I've been using NVDA now for a few days, and for the most part it's
working without a hitch in Outlook. However, I'm having two problems:
1. In Outlook, the reporting of deleted messages is inconsistent. If
deleting from a folder, NVDA doesn't, and has never, said anything.
I'd like the subject line of the next message to be spoken after the
previous message is moved to the deleted items folder. When in the
deleted items folder, NVDA does not reliably say the correct subject
line. To reproduce, follow these steps:
A. Locate an email you don't want in Outlook, open it, then press
control+D to delete it. Notice that NVDA does not say anything, I'd
like it to say the subject of the next message, or the name of the
folder if there are no more messages to display or you have Outlook
configured to return you to the folder where you were.
B. Now go to your deleted items folder, and find a few messages you
want to delete. For this scenario, I'm assuming you, like me, have
Outlook set to open the previous item upon taking action on the
currently focused one. Open one of the messages, and press control+D
to delete it. Outlook pops up a message saying that this will be
permanent, and asks if you would like to continue. Say yes to this,
and you should be in the next message. Here, NVDA sometimes says the
correct subject, sometimes does not say the subject of the message at
all, or sometimes even says the subject of the message you just
deleted.
2. I don't use Outlook for the account I'm writing you on right now, I
use Gmail's web interface with the basic html mode. When navigating
through my messages using the tab key, NVDA does not read who the
message is from. It will say something like row 4 column 1 checkbox
not checked, then I tab and it will say column 3 message subject.
System Access will read the sender's name with the checkbox in column
1.
Bob


Sky Mundell
 

Hello Bob. Perhaps this is something that needs to be addressed in a future update of NVDA? This is concerning that NVDA won't automatically read the message after hitting control and the letter D, but System Access will, especially since System Access from what I hear is soon going to be a dead product and from what I hear hasn't received any updates since August of 2020. Note. I've had some familiarity with System Access in the past and owned their accessibility anywhere package and when SA to go came out I was hoping that SA To go would take off and become successful.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: December 1, 2020 9:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] two different problems with NVDA and reading email

Hi all,
I've been using NVDA now for a few days, and for the most part it's working without a hitch in Outlook. However, I'm having two problems:
1. In Outlook, the reporting of deleted messages is inconsistent. If deleting from a folder, NVDA doesn't, and has never, said anything.
I'd like the subject line of the next message to be spoken after the previous message is moved to the deleted items folder. When in the deleted items folder, NVDA does not reliably say the correct subject line. To reproduce, follow these steps:
A. Locate an email you don't want in Outlook, open it, then press
control+D to delete it. Notice that NVDA does not say anything, I'd
like it to say the subject of the next message, or the name of the folder if there are no more messages to display or you have Outlook configured to return you to the folder where you were.
B. Now go to your deleted items folder, and find a few messages you want to delete. For this scenario, I'm assuming you, like me, have Outlook set to open the previous item upon taking action on the currently focused one. Open one of the messages, and press control+D to delete it. Outlook pops up a message saying that this will be permanent, and asks if you would like to continue. Say yes to this, and you should be in the next message. Here, NVDA sometimes says the correct subject, sometimes does not say the subject of the message at all, or sometimes even says the subject of the message you just deleted.
2. I don't use Outlook for the account I'm writing you on right now, I use Gmail's web interface with the basic html mode. When navigating through my messages using the tab key, NVDA does not read who the message is from. It will say something like row 4 column 1 checkbox not checked, then I tab and it will say column 3 message subject.
System Access will read the sender's name with the checkbox in column 1.
Bob


Chris Mullins
 

Hi Bob

I can’t comment on the Outlook issues but regarding the Gmail basic HTML view, when you are browsing the list of messages, you are in a table, so use the table reading commands rather than just tabbing.  These are Control+alt+left/right/up/down arrows, so, for example you can move up and down the subject column to read them.  Personally, I hate the gmail interface and have linked my gmail account to the W10 mail app and find it much easier to manage.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: 02 December 2020 05:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] two different problems with NVDA and reading email

 

H

 


Bob Cavanaugh
 

I'm not sure if I made my point clear enough on this. I am used to the
way System Access reads things, which is that when tabbing through and
landing on the checkboxes, it reads who the message is from right away
without having to use any extra table commands. Is there some way this
can be implemented in NVDA? It seems like there are situations like
this all over the web.

On 12/2/20, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob
I can’t comment on the Outlook issues but regarding the Gmail basic HTML
view, when you are browsing the list of messages, you are in a table, so use
the table reading commands rather than just tabbing. These are
Control+alt+left/right/up/down arrows, so, for example you can move up and
down the subject column to read them. Personally, I hate the gmail
interface and have linked my gmail account to the W10 mail app and find it
much easier to manage.

Cheers
Chris

From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: 02 December 2020 05:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] two different problems with NVDA and reading email

H







Bob Cavanaugh
 

I was really hoping it would do well myself, as I've used SA to go on
several computers. Sometimes though, it simply crashes when trying to
load. That being said, it won't automatically read the message, but
what it will do is after pressing control+D, it will say "message
subject message HTML." NVDA is completely silent, though I think it
does read the subject line as expected after moving a message out of
the Inbox.

On 12/1/20, Sky Mundell <skyt@shaw.ca> wrote:
Hello Bob. Perhaps this is something that needs to be addressed in a future
update of NVDA? This is concerning that NVDA won't automatically read the
message after hitting control and the letter D, but System Access will,
especially since System Access from what I hear is soon going to be a dead
product and from what I hear hasn't received any updates since August of
2020. Note. I've had some familiarity with System Access in the past and
owned their accessibility anywhere package and when SA to go came out I was
hoping that SA To go would take off and become successful.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: December 1, 2020 9:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] two different problems with NVDA and reading email

Hi all,
I've been using NVDA now for a few days, and for the most part it's working
without a hitch in Outlook. However, I'm having two problems:
1. In Outlook, the reporting of deleted messages is inconsistent. If
deleting from a folder, NVDA doesn't, and has never, said anything.
I'd like the subject line of the next message to be spoken after the
previous message is moved to the deleted items folder. When in the deleted
items folder, NVDA does not reliably say the correct subject line. To
reproduce, follow these steps:
A. Locate an email you don't want in Outlook, open it, then press
control+D to delete it. Notice that NVDA does not say anything, I'd
like it to say the subject of the next message, or the name of the folder if
there are no more messages to display or you have Outlook configured to
return you to the folder where you were.
B. Now go to your deleted items folder, and find a few messages you want to
delete. For this scenario, I'm assuming you, like me, have Outlook set to
open the previous item upon taking action on the currently focused one. Open
one of the messages, and press control+D to delete it. Outlook pops up a
message saying that this will be permanent, and asks if you would like to
continue. Say yes to this, and you should be in the next message. Here, NVDA
sometimes says the correct subject, sometimes does not say the subject of
the message at all, or sometimes even says the subject of the message you
just deleted.
2. I don't use Outlook for the account I'm writing you on right now, I use
Gmail's web interface with the basic html mode. When navigating through my
messages using the tab key, NVDA does not read who the message is from. It
will say something like row 4 column 1 checkbox not checked, then I tab and
it will say column 3 message subject.
System Access will read the sender's name with the checkbox in column 1.
Bob











Gene
 

If I understand what is wanted, when moving to the check box, the person who the message is from is wanted to be read before anything else.  I'm not sure if check box checked or unchecked is wanted to be read or when.  Screen-readers exist in complex environments and there are times when, for whatever reasons, human intervention is needed to get what you want read when you want it read.  Sometimes, this isn't possible and sometimes it is.  In this case, all I have to do in the simple HTML view is to type the letter x to move to a check box, then immediately down arrow.  The sender of the message is read immediately.


Implementing a feature where the first line below a check box is read in general or at least on some web sites may not be a good solution.  It may do what is wanted on this or that site and not on others where it may create unwanted verbosity.


I suppose it might be tailored for a specific site but something like that, I would think, would probably be done by an Add-on, such as a GMail add-on.

But this concept of helping a screen-reader is important and my impression is that a lot of users don't do this.


I'll give two examples:

When I use NVDA's browse mode search, if I don't use read current line, I hear all sorts of unwanted verbosity before what is found is read.  If I issue the search command, then use the read current navigator ;position, numpad 8 in  the desktop layout, what is wanted is read immediately.


I don't recall now if I issue a find command, wait for NVDA to start speaking, then issue the read current line command, or if I issue the find command, then wait a moment and issue the read current line command even before speech has begun.  You can experiment and see if both work.


This greatly improves the efficiency of the Browse Mode find command and it becomes automatic after a little while, which is the reason I don't recall the exact time when I issue the command.


When you repeat a search, numpad insert, f3 on the main keyboard, what is wanted is read without doing anything else.  That is the desktop layout command for repeat search.


Here is the other example:

In Outlook and in Thunderbird, I have seen behavior complained of such as when you open a message, you hear unwanted information read or read and repeated.  The solution is to open the message, then issue the read to end command.  You can experiment.  You may have to wait a moment, just how long you  can determine before the command is able to work, probably depending on when the message finishes loading.  You don't have to wait until speech automatically begins.  Using this command becomes automatic after a little while and greatly increases efficiency and causes you to hear little or no unwanted verbosity.


Gene

On 12/3/2020 12:33 AM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
I'm not sure if I made my point clear enough on this. I am used to the
way System Access reads things, which is that when tabbing through and
landing on the checkboxes, it reads who the message is from right away
without having to use any extra table commands. Is there some way this
can be implemented in NVDA? It seems like there are situations like
this all over the web.

On 12/2/20, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob
I can’t comment on the Outlook issues but regarding the Gmail basic HTML
view, when you are browsing the list of messages, you are in a table, so use
the table reading commands rather than just tabbing. These are
Control+alt+left/right/up/down arrows, so, for example you can move up and
down the subject column to read them. Personally, I hate the gmail
interface and have linked my gmail account to the W10 mail app and find it
much easier to manage.

Cheers
Chris

From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: 02 December 2020 05:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] two different problems with NVDA and reading email

H








Bob Cavanaugh
 

Yes, System Access does this all the time in Outlook, haven't had that
problem with NVDA. As for the checkboxes on the Gmail website, that's
what I've been doing but I guess I'm used to System Access, where it
automatically says "sender name checkbox not checked." I'll have to
play around with the two screen readers to find other examples of
where tabbing through reads checkboxes in one screen reader but not
the other.

On 12/3/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
If I understand what is wanted, when moving to the check box, the person
who the message is from is wanted to be read before anything else.  I'm
not sure if check box checked or unchecked is wanted to be read or
when.  Screen-readers exist in complex environments and there are times
when, for whatever reasons, human intervention is needed to get what you
want read when you want it read.  Sometimes, this isn't possible and
sometimes it is.  In this case, all I have to do in the simple HTML view
is to type the letter x to move to a check box, then immediately down
arrow.  The sender of the message is read immediately.


Implementing a feature where the first line below a check box is read in
general or at least on some web sites may not be a good solution.  It
may do what is wanted on this or that site and not on others where it
may create unwanted verbosity.


I suppose it might be tailored for a specific site but something like
that, I would think, would probably be done by an Add-on, such as a
GMail add-on.

But this concept of helping a screen-reader is important and my
impression is that a lot of users don't do this.


I'll give two examples:

When I use NVDA's browse mode search, if I don't use read current line,
I hear all sorts of unwanted verbosity before what is found is read.  If
I issue the search command, then use the read current navigator
;position, numpad 8 in  the desktop layout, what is wanted is read
immediately.


I don't recall now if I issue a find command, wait for NVDA to start
speaking, then issue the read current line command, or if I issue the
find command, then wait a moment and issue the read current line command
even before speech has begun.  You can experiment and see if both work.


This greatly improves the efficiency of the Browse Mode find command and
it becomes automatic after a little while, which is the reason I don't
recall the exact time when I issue the command.


When you repeat a search, numpad insert, f3 on the main keyboard, what
is wanted is read without doing anything else.  That is the desktop
layout command for repeat search.


Here is the other example:

In Outlook and in Thunderbird, I have seen behavior complained of such
as when you open a message, you hear unwanted information read or read
and repeated.  The solution is to open the message, then issue the read
to end command.  You can experiment.  You may have to wait a moment,
just how long you  can determine before the command is able to work,
probably depending on when the message finishes loading.  You don't have
to wait until speech automatically begins.  Using this command becomes
automatic after a little while and greatly increases efficiency and
causes you to hear little or no unwanted verbosity.


Gene

On 12/3/2020 12:33 AM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
I'm not sure if I made my point clear enough on this. I am used to the
way System Access reads things, which is that when tabbing through and
landing on the checkboxes, it reads who the message is from right away
without having to use any extra table commands. Is there some way this
can be implemented in NVDA? It seems like there are situations like
this all over the web.

On 12/2/20, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob
I can’t comment on the Outlook issues but regarding the Gmail basic HTML
view, when you are browsing the list of messages, you are in a table, so
use
the table reading commands rather than just tabbing. These are
Control+alt+left/right/up/down arrows, so, for example you can move up
and
down the subject column to read them. Personally, I hate the gmail
interface and have linked my gmail account to the W10 mail app and find
it
much easier to manage.

Cheers
Chris

From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: 02 December 2020 05:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] two different problems with NVDA and reading email

H