Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

I have made posts about Thunderbird Version 102 in one of the JAWS groups and here as well.  From the JAWS Group:
----
What I can't figure out is why anyone who is not a typical beta user is upgrading to Thunderbird 102.  From the noted page: Thunderbird version 102.0 is only offered as direct download from thunderbird.net and not as an upgrade from Thunderbird version 91 or earlier. A future release will provide updates from earlier versions.

There could be quite a few changes before it hits the release channel.  Those choosing to use beta software need to understand what that entails.  I still have 91.11.0 and a check for updates from the help menu clearly indicates that's the latest version on the release channel.
----
And in this group, in message #97152, I noted that the developer of Mozilla Apps Enhancements reported that there were known issues between that add-on and Thunderbird 102.  I have not kept up on this, since 102 is not on the release channel yet, and I expect that beta software will sometimes have issues and that they often get fixed provided beta testers report them in the months leading up to a release candidate.

And while the above may have absolutely nothing to do with the exact issue raised here, it is essential to remember when using any piece of software that is not a part of the official release channel at the time it's being used.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

Well one thing is if status bar is back on the progress bar shows.

Now it doescomplete a little before messages finnish downloading but lat least there actually is one.


On 7/08/2022 2:40 pm, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1? If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

Hi Gene,

I can tell you this.  When I use the NVDA keystroke to read the whole screen for desktops insert + B, (useful in dialogues and other things that sometimes don't automatically read) if you listen to all the verbiage, finally at the very end, the status bar is read.  This means that it is still being displayed in some form.

On 8/6/2022 10:52 PM, Gene wrote:

The status bar was not present in the previous version on my machine and it still isn't.

I'm going to check to see if there is even supposed to be a status bar any longer.  We don't know if it has been removed.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 9:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

Hi Gene,

Well that seems to be true--unless you look at the What's new link.
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/102.1.1/releasenotes/
Here's what it says:
Thunderbird version 102.1.1 is only offered as direct download from thunderbird.not as an upgrade from Thunderbird version 91 or earlier.
...and even more confusing:
Version 102.1.1, first offered to channel users on August 8, 2022  (which is actually tomorrow.)

I downloaded the 102.0 from within Thunderbird a few weeks ago. Just yesterday, the program auto updated from 102.1.0 to 102.1.1.  This is when I first noticed the status bar issue.

So explain that Gene! It's liked the twilight zone.

On 8/7/2022 4:21 AM, Gene wrote:

I am using the portable version and, though I doubt it, perhaps that accounts for the difference. 

Whatever the case, in a later message, you said that the version you are using isn't available on the download page you were working with.  I don't know where you were looking.  If I look on this page:
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
I see links to download Thunderbird.
Here is the first download link and you will see that it gives the 102.x. version number.
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-102.1.1-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

On the page I linked to above, not the download link, you will also see a get the beta link.has a get the beta link.  If you follow that, the link to download the beta, the first link offered gives a higher verssion number as below:
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-104.0b2-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

I used the copy  link feature of Firefox when I was on the download links.  I am presenting the written out underlying links, not the English wording you see if you just look at the page.

I don't know where you are looking but the page I just gave the link to has correct version availability.

In short, you are using the latest nonbeta version.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 10:48 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

I can tell you this.  When I use the NVDA keystroke to read the whole screen for desktops insert + B, (useful in dialogues and other things that sometimes don't automatically read) if you listen to all the verbiage, finally at the very end, the status bar is read.  This means that it is still being displayed in some form.

On 8/6/2022 10:52 PM, Gene wrote:

The status bar was not present in the previous version on my machine and it still isn't.

I'm going to check to see if there is even supposed to be a status bar any longer.  We don't know if it has been removed.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 9:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

It may be that if you have version 91.x and earlier, you won't update directly to 102.x.  The program may  first update you to an earlier version and from that earlier version the next update may be to 102.exe.  But if you have a recent enough version, you will get an update to 102.exe.

I updated last night.  The version I got last night is 102.1.1.

the page is not worded correctly, whatever is meant. 

In addition, open the about dialog, alt h, a.
Then switch to browse mode so you can move around the page like a web page, which it actually is, NVDA key space.
Move to the top of the page, then start down arrowing.  You will see the version number you are using and a little below that you will see that you are on the main release channel.  The program's own about dialog is telling you what the situation is.

Closed the about dialog with control f4, not alt f4.
Gene

On 8/7/2022 7:19 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

Well that seems to be true--unless you look at the What's new link.
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/102.1.1/releasenotes/
Here's what it says:
Thunderbird version 102.1.1 is only offered as direct download from thunderbird.not as an upgrade from Thunderbird version 91 or earlier.
...and even more confusing:
Version 102.1.1, first offered to channel users on August 8, 2022  (which is actually tomorrow.)

I downloaded the 102.0 from within Thunderbird a few weeks ago. Just yesterday, the program auto updated from 102.1.0 to 102.1.1.  This is when I first noticed the status bar issue.

So explain that Gene! It's liked the twilight zone.

On 8/7/2022 4:21 AM, Gene wrote:

I am using the portable version and, though I doubt it, perhaps that accounts for the difference. 

Whatever the case, in a later message, you said that the version you are using isn't available on the download page you were working with.  I don't know where you were looking.  If I look on this page:
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
I see links to download Thunderbird.
Here is the first download link and you will see that it gives the 102.x. version number.
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-102.1.1-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

On the page I linked to above, not the download link, you will also see a get the beta link.has a get the beta link.  If you follow that, the link to download the beta, the first link offered gives a higher verssion number as below:
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-104.0b2-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

I used the copy  link feature of Firefox when I was on the download links.  I am presenting the written out underlying links, not the English wording you see if you just look at the page.

I don't know where you are looking but the page I just gave the link to has correct version availability.

In short, you are using the latest nonbeta version.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 10:48 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

I can tell you this.  When I use the NVDA keystroke to read the whole screen for desktops insert + B, (useful in dialogues and other things that sometimes don't automatically read) if you listen to all the verbiage, finally at the very end, the status bar is read.  This means that it is still being displayed in some form.

On 8/6/2022 10:52 PM, Gene wrote:

The status bar was not present in the previous version on my machine and it still isn't.

I'm going to check to see if there is even supposed to be a status bar any longer.  We don't know if it has been removed.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 9:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

Hi Gene,

Of course I have been doing this for years now.  BTW, with Mozilla products, to close windows of any kind, control + W also works. It never fails.

I do have an old Thunderbird 102.0 executable version on my old computer. I always download the current release version a few days after I am updated within a program of any kind including Thunderbird.  I am going to save all my mail and then do a total uninstall and reinstall of 102.0 and immediately block any further updates under settings. I will keep things that way until further notice. Maybe, I'll even take your advice and run any future full releases as a portable version first before doing a full install--a kind of shake down cruise.

On 8/7/2022 9:11 AM, Gene wrote:

Here is a correction.  Close the about dialog with either escape or alt f4.  I thought the dialog opened in a new tab but it is somehow a dialog even though it presents itself as a web page.  It closes in the usual way about dialogs close.

Gene

On 8/7/2022 8:05 AM, Gene wrote:

It may be that if you have version 91.x and earlier, you won't update directly to 102.x.  The program may  first update you to an earlier version and from that earlier version the next update may be to 102.exe.  But if you have a recent enough version, you will get an update to 102.exe.

I updated last night.  The version I got last night is 102.1.1.

the page is not worded correctly, whatever is meant. 

In addition, open the about dialog, alt h, a.
Then switch to browse mode so you can move around the page like a web page, which it actually is, NVDA key space.
Move to the top of the page, then start down arrowing.  You will see the version number you are using and a little below that you will see that you are on the main release channel.  The program's own about dialog is telling you what the situation is.

Closed the about dialog with control f4, not alt f4.
Gene

On 8/7/2022 7:19 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

Well that seems to be true--unless you look at the What's new link.
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/102.1.1/releasenotes/
Here's what it says:
Thunderbird version 102.1.1 is only offered as direct download from thunderbird.not as an upgrade from Thunderbird version 91 or earlier.
...and even more confusing:
Version 102.1.1, first offered to channel users on August 8, 2022  (which is actually tomorrow.)

I downloaded the 102.0 from within Thunderbird a few weeks ago. Just yesterday, the program auto updated from 102.1.0 to 102.1.1.  This is when I first noticed the status bar issue.

So explain that Gene! It's liked the twilight zone.

On 8/7/2022 4:21 AM, Gene wrote:

I am using the portable version and, though I doubt it, perhaps that accounts for the difference. 

Whatever the case, in a later message, you said that the version you are using isn't available on the download page you were working with.  I don't know where you were looking.  If I look on this page:
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
I see links to download Thunderbird.
Here is the first download link and you will see that it gives the 102.x. version number.
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-102.1.1-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

On the page I linked to above, not the download link, you will also see a get the beta link.has a get the beta link.  If you follow that, the link to download the beta, the first link offered gives a higher verssion number as below:
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-104.0b2-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

I used the copy  link feature of Firefox when I was on the download links.  I am presenting the written out underlying links, not the English wording you see if you just look at the page.

I don't know where you are looking but the page I just gave the link to has correct version availability.

In short, you are using the latest nonbeta version.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 10:48 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

I can tell you this.  When I use the NVDA keystroke to read the whole screen for desktops insert + B, (useful in dialogues and other things that sometimes don't automatically read) if you listen to all the verbiage, finally at the very end, the status bar is read.  This means that it is still being displayed in some form.

On 8/6/2022 10:52 PM, Gene wrote:

The status bar was not present in the previous version on my machine and it still isn't.

I'm going to check to see if there is even supposed to be a status bar any longer.  We don't know if it has been removed.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 9:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

You can copy the profile folder to a location outside of the program, then uninstall the version you are running and install the one you want.  If you delete the profile folder in the new copy, and paste the profile you saved to the same location, you will have all your messages, the address book, and I would imagine anything else, such as add-ons, though I don't know about add-ons and other items.

Those who know more about this may comment further.  I'm not sure where the profile is in the installed version.

But if you are talking about saving all your messages and transferring them using a different method, and manually exporting and importing the address book, placing the profile in a new copy of the program eliminates the need for all that work.

I'll add that those were my results, playing with the portable version.  I expect them to be the same if you are copying the profile in an installed version or from an installed version to a portable version.  I haven't verified that. 

You may want to manually save what you want to save, then try the copy profile method so that in case it doesn't work as I expect, you won't have lost anything.

Gene

On 8/7/2022 8:56 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

Of course I have been doing this for years now.  BTW, with Mozilla products, to close windows of any kind, control + W also works. It never fails.

I do have an old Thunderbird 102.0 executable version on my old computer. I always download the current release version a few days after I am updated within a program of any kind including Thunderbird.  I am going to save all my mail and then do a total uninstall and reinstall of 102.0 and immediately block any further updates under settings. I will keep things that way until further notice. Maybe, I'll even take your advice and run any future full releases as a portable version first before doing a full install--a kind of shake down cruise.

On 8/7/2022 9:11 AM, Gene wrote:

Here is a correction.  Close the about dialog with either escape or alt f4.  I thought the dialog opened in a new tab but it is somehow a dialog even though it presents itself as a web page.  It closes in the usual way about dialogs close.

Gene

On 8/7/2022 8:05 AM, Gene wrote:

It may be that if you have version 91.x and earlier, you won't update directly to 102.x.  The program may  first update you to an earlier version and from that earlier version the next update may be to 102.exe.  But if you have a recent enough version, you will get an update to 102.exe.

I updated last night.  The version I got last night is 102.1.1.

the page is not worded correctly, whatever is meant. 

In addition, open the about dialog, alt h, a.
Then switch to browse mode so you can move around the page like a web page, which it actually is, NVDA key space.
Move to the top of the page, then start down arrowing.  You will see the version number you are using and a little below that you will see that you are on the main release channel.  The program's own about dialog is telling you what the situation is.

Closed the about dialog with control f4, not alt f4.
Gene

On 8/7/2022 7:19 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

Well that seems to be true--unless you look at the What's new link.
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/102.1.1/releasenotes/
Here's what it says:
Thunderbird version 102.1.1 is only offered as direct download from thunderbird.not as an upgrade from Thunderbird version 91 or earlier.
...and even more confusing:
Version 102.1.1, first offered to channel users on August 8, 2022  (which is actually tomorrow.)

I downloaded the 102.0 from within Thunderbird a few weeks ago. Just yesterday, the program auto updated from 102.1.0 to 102.1.1.  This is when I first noticed the status bar issue.

So explain that Gene! It's liked the twilight zone.

On 8/7/2022 4:21 AM, Gene wrote:

I am using the portable version and, though I doubt it, perhaps that accounts for the difference. 

Whatever the case, in a later message, you said that the version you are using isn't available on the download page you were working with.  I don't know where you were looking.  If I look on this page:
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
I see links to download Thunderbird.
Here is the first download link and you will see that it gives the 102.x. version number.
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-102.1.1-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

On the page I linked to above, not the download link, you will also see a get the beta link.has a get the beta link.  If you follow that, the link to download the beta, the first link offered gives a higher verssion number as below:
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-104.0b2-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

I used the copy  link feature of Firefox when I was on the download links.  I am presenting the written out underlying links, not the English wording you see if you just look at the page.

I don't know where you are looking but the page I just gave the link to has correct version availability.

In short, you are using the latest nonbeta version.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 10:48 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

I can tell you this.  When I use the NVDA keystroke to read the whole screen for desktops insert + B, (useful in dialogues and other things that sometimes don't automatically read) if you listen to all the verbiage, finally at the very end, the status bar is read.  This means that it is still being displayed in some form.

On 8/6/2022 10:52 PM, Gene wrote:

The status bar was not present in the previous version on my machine and it still isn't.

I'm going to check to see if there is even supposed to be a status bar any longer.  We don't know if it has been removed.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 9:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

You can copy the profile folder to a location outside of the program, then uninstall the version you are running and install the one you want.  If you delete the profile folder in the new copy, and paste the profile you saved to the same location, you will have all your messages, the address book, and I would imagine anything else, such as add-ons, though I don't know about add-ons and other items.

Those who know more about this may comment further.  I'm not sure where the profile is in the installed version.

But if you are talking about saving all your messages and transferring them using a different method, and manually exporting and importing the address book, placing the profile in a new copy of the program eliminates the need for all that work.

I'll add that those were my results, playing with the portable version.  I expect them to be the same if you are copying the profile in an installed version or from an installed version to a portable version.  I haven't verified that. 

You may want to manually save what you want to save, then try the copy profile method so that in case it doesn't work as I expect, you won't have lost anything.

Gene

On 8/7/2022 8:56 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

Of course I have been doing this for years now.  BTW, with Mozilla products, to close windows of any kind, control + W also works. It never fails.

I do have an old Thunderbird 102.0 executable version on my old computer. I always download the current release version a few days after I am updated within a program of any kind including Thunderbird.  I am going to save all my mail and then do a total uninstall and reinstall of 102.0 and immediately block any further updates under settings. I will keep things that way until further notice. Maybe, I'll even take your advice and run any future full releases as a portable version first before doing a full install--a kind of shake down cruise.

On 8/7/2022 9:11 AM, Gene wrote:

Here is a correction.  Close the about dialog with either escape or alt f4.  I thought the dialog opened in a new tab but it is somehow a dialog even though it presents itself as a web page.  It closes in the usual way about dialogs close.

Gene

On 8/7/2022 8:05 AM, Gene wrote:

It may be that if you have version 91.x and earlier, you won't update directly to 102.x.  The program may  first update you to an earlier version and from that earlier version the next update may be to 102.exe.  But if you have a recent enough version, you will get an update to 102.exe.

I updated last night.  The version I got last night is 102.1.1.

the page is not worded correctly, whatever is meant. 

In addition, open the about dialog, alt h, a.
Then switch to browse mode so you can move around the page like a web page, which it actually is, NVDA key space.
Move to the top of the page, then start down arrowing.  You will see the version number you are using and a little below that you will see that you are on the main release channel.  The program's own about dialog is telling you what the situation is.

Closed the about dialog with control f4, not alt f4.
Gene

On 8/7/2022 7:19 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

Well that seems to be true--unless you look at the What's new link.
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/102.1.1/releasenotes/
Here's what it says:
Thunderbird version 102.1.1 is only offered as direct download from thunderbird.not as an upgrade from Thunderbird version 91 or earlier.
...and even more confusing:
Version 102.1.1, first offered to channel users on August 8, 2022  (which is actually tomorrow.)

I downloaded the 102.0 from within Thunderbird a few weeks ago. Just yesterday, the program auto updated from 102.1.0 to 102.1.1.  This is when I first noticed the status bar issue.

So explain that Gene! It's liked the twilight zone.

On 8/7/2022 4:21 AM, Gene wrote:

I am using the portable version and, though I doubt it, perhaps that accounts for the difference. 

Whatever the case, in a later message, you said that the version you are using isn't available on the download page you were working with.  I don't know where you were looking.  If I look on this page:
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
I see links to download Thunderbird.
Here is the first download link and you will see that it gives the 102.x. version number.
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-102.1.1-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

On the page I linked to above, not the download link, you will also see a get the beta link.has a get the beta link.  If you follow that, the link to download the beta, the first link offered gives a higher verssion number as below:
https://download.mozilla.org/?product=thunderbird-104.0b2-SSL&os=win64&lang=en-US

I used the copy  link feature of Firefox when I was on the download links.  I am presenting the written out underlying links, not the English wording you see if you just look at the page.

I don't know where you are looking but the page I just gave the link to has correct version availability.

In short, you are using the latest nonbeta version.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 10:48 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

I can tell you this.  When I use the NVDA keystroke to read the whole screen for desktops insert + B, (useful in dialogues and other things that sometimes don't automatically read) if you listen to all the verbiage, finally at the very end, the status bar is read.  This means that it is still being displayed in some form.

On 8/6/2022 10:52 PM, Gene wrote:

The status bar was not present in the previous version on my machine and it still isn't.

I'm going to check to see if there is even supposed to be a status bar any longer.  We don't know if it has been removed.

Gene

On 8/6/2022 9:40 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Group,

Has anyone upgraded Thunderbird to the latest version 102.1.1?  If so, can you read the status bar?  I cannot on my system: Windows 11, 64 bit with latest NVDA 2022.2.

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!

-- 
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grievous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement  and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!