Topics

Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time


Gene
 

I really hate unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time and tells me nothing of any value.

I've recently been using the beta version of NVDA. I havedn't gotten the production version since I've been using it so little. But one thing that caught my attention is the announcement of figure and out of figure on web pages. What possible value is there to this? I don't care if something is a figure in structure, whatever that is, evidently some sort of visual formatting. Every time I hear these words, it wastes a little bit of time and distractingly clutters the text. and I see no way to turhn this off in the document formatting options. I turn off the other nonsense such as bloc quote announcement. I turn off almost everything. If new formatting information is added, there should be a way to turn it off.

And why are some of these announcements on by default? People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter. How many users of NVDA ever learn enough to know that they can turn all these announcements off?

Gene


 

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:
People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.
I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers.  I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.  Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others.  And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 


Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Gene,

Here is our issue for exactly what you are describing: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10826

Do feel free to subscribe to that for updates on progress.  There is a link in that issue to https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/groups/#multiple-images-conveying-a-single-piece-of-information which gives more information on exactly what figures are with some examples.

So yes, a way of disabling that is a good idea.  I don't have a timeline just now though.

Quentin.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:34 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I really hate unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time and tells me nothing
of any value.

I've recently been using the beta version of NVDA.  I havedn't gotten the
production version since I've been using it so little.  But one thing that
caught my attention is the announcement of figure and out of figure on web
pages.  What possible value is there to this?  I don't care if something is
a figure in structure, whatever that is, evidently some sort of visual
formatting.  Every time I hear these words, it wastes a little bit of time
and distractingly clutters the text.  and I see no way to turhn this off in
the document formatting options.  I turn off the other nonsense such as bloc
quote announcement.  I turn off almost everything.  If new formatting
information is added, there should be a way to turn it off.

And why are some of these announcements on by default?  People would never
put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.  How many users of
NVDA ever learn enough to know that they can turn all these announcements
off?

Gene






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Gene
 

Thanks. I'll keep track of it.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] unnecessaruy verbiage that wastes my time


Hi Gene,

Here is our issue for exactly what you are describing: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10826

Do feel free to subscribe to that for updates on progress. There is a link in that issue to https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/groups/#multiple-images-conveying-a-single-piece-of-information which gives more information on exactly what figures are with some examples.

So yes, a way of disabling that is a good idea. I don't have a timeline just now though.

Quentin.


On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:34 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I really hate unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time and tells me nothing
of any value.

I've recently been using the beta version of NVDA. I havedn't gotten the
production version since I've been using it so little. But one thing that
caught my attention is the announcement of figure and out of figure on web
pages. What possible value is there to this? I don't care if something is
a figure in structure, whatever that is, evidently some sort of visual
formatting. Every time I hear these words, it wastes a little bit of time
and distractingly clutters the text. and I see no way to turhn this off in
the document formatting options. I turn off the other nonsense such as bloc
quote announcement. I turn off almost everything. If new formatting
information is added, there should be a way to turn it off.

And why are some of these announcements on by default? People would never
put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter. How many users of
NVDA ever learn enough to know that they can turn all these announcements
off?

Gene








--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Felix G.
 

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it
as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a
screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web
designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge
on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would
get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost
never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <@britechguy>:


On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content. Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde




 

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:46 AM, Felix G. wrote:
but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.
-
Because, at least to some extent, that's what happens when you translate one sense to another.  There is no way to make a great deal of what "makes perfect sense" in the sensory idiom for which it was designed to have that perfect sense in another.  All accessibility is a workaround.

Not that I don't understand what you're saying, as I've said it, too, but it is not something you can ever entirely get away from.

And you also say, "In the sighted world nobody would get away with it."   And to a large extent, that's true, but that's not because it's "the sighted world" but because the things designed are being primarily designed with the sense of sight in mind.   Given that the vast majority of the world can see, and that the medium itself is meant to be consumed via sight, that's what makes the most sense, wouldn't you say?

Expecting websites and print media to be primarily designed with the blind in mind would be akin to expecting music to be composed primarily with the deaf in mind.  [And that's not to excuse plain sloppiness and inaccessibility, either.]
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 


Gene
 

I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it
as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a
screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web
designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge
on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would
get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost
never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <@britechguy>:

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content. Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde




 

Hi,
It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel
<@britechguy>:

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a
human reader to say something about the fact that there is a
figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading,
unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only
read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling
many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday
there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your
average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.
Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links
and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea,
really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it
offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the
presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks"
of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the
option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going
through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you
explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know
what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through,
but in any really complex system where a high level of customization
is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde




Gene
 

I don't know who is interested in the topic of what is announced during web page navigation but I'm going to start a topic on what is helpful and useful and what is just clutter on the chat list so those interested may want to join. The chat list is a low traffic list.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 10:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi,
It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel
<@britechguy>:

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a
human reader to say something about the fact that there is a
figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading,
unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only
read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling
many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday
there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your
average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.
Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links
and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea,
really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it
offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the
presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks"
of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the
option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going
through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you
explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know
what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through,
but in any really complex system where a high level of customization
is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

~ Oscar Wilde




CARLOS-ESTEBAN
 

Hello.

Well, a possible option is use the reader mode of the browsers. In Firefox and new Microsoft Edge press f9.

In Chrome, go to the page chrome://flags. In the edit box search, write "reader mode" and press enter. After, press tab and enabled this feature.

Restart Chrome and after you can press f6, and tab two times for the button enable reader mode and press enter.

An other solution is use the add-on Virtual Revieu, but I dont know if this addon work in web pages.

Regards.


El 7/8/2020 a las 9:46, Felix G. escribió:
Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it
as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a
screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web
designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge
on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would
get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost
never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>:
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers.  I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.  Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others.  And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde






--

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías.

Músico (pianista) y también ayuda a usuarios ciegos con el uso de lectores de pantalla y tecnología.

Experto certificado en el lector de pantalla NVDA.


Musicien (pianist) and also help to the blind people in the use of screen readers and technology. Certified expert in the screen reader NVDA.


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

I might be interested in putting in my two cents on this topic. Shouldn't the NVDA community have a Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.

On 8/08/2020 1:35 am, Gene wrote:
I don't know who is interested in the topic of what is announced during web page navigation but I'm going to start a topic on what is helpful and useful and what is just clutter on the chat list so those interested may want to join.  The chat list is a low traffic list.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 10:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi,
It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general.  I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on.  Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information.  It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default.  I don't know how they determine what is announced.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time

Hi!
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.
Best,
Felix


Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel
<@britechguy>:

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:

People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.

I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a
human reader to say something about the fact that there is a
figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading,
unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only
read the main text.

I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling
many, many times with multiple screen readers.  I hope that someday
there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your
average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content.
Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links
and the like at the outset, but the main page content first.

But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea,
really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it
offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the
presence of something.

It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks"
of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the
option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going
through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you
explicitly don't want while retaining the others.  And do I ever know
what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through,
but in any really complex system where a high level of customization
is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde













Jesse Farquharson
 

Regarding Discord, I recently created a server for discussing all things audio, but it has been suggested that I create specific areas for the NVDA and JAWS communities. So the groundwork is already there. If anyone wants to join the server or wants to express their interest in such an area, please contact me off list.


 

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 06:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
. . . Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.
1.  Groups.io has a full web interface and can be accessed as an online forum, which is precisely what I do.  Those who prefer e-mail have that option, and based on the number of groups on the site, and how quickly it grew, "old school" still has a lot of fans.

2.  With regard to Discord, and this is coming from a tech geek, mind you, remember the sage observation of Bill Gray:  "A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo."   I've never seen the attraction after my brief interactions with it.  Others, of course, feel differently.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

          ~ Oscar Wilde

 


Luke Davis
 

I completely agree with Brian.

For me, it's far easier to write a well worded and detailed email, with considered steps to solve problems that people can refer back to and follow, than to have to get involved with an audio service where you have to be much more real-time.

Anyone is free to create anything they want for interaction about NVDA, but I wonder if getting the really experienced technical people to engage with it is likely. Personally, I just don't have time for that kind of headache.

Luke

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 06:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
. . . Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.
1.  Groups.io has a full web interface and can be accessed as an online forum, which is precisely what I do.  Those who prefer e-mail have that option, and
based on the number of groups on the site, and how quickly it grew, "old school" still has a lot of fans.2.  With regard to Discord, and this is coming from
a tech geek, mind you, remember the sage observation of Bill Gray:  "A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo."   I've
never seen the attraction after my brief interactions with it.  Others, of course, feel differently. --


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Perhaps it's a "me" thing. I find email responses much slower on the whole, which is why I tried to turn to skype groups a while back for more prompt assistance. I would personally prefer a more realtime interaction rather than waiting hours for a response that might not be entirely helpful.


I will admit, however, that many of you are not as young (twenty-nine) as me, nor do many of you have as much free time. And perhaps I'm just impatient when I want a problem solved and should work on that rather than demand an entire group change how they do things for my own convenience.

On 8/08/2020 10:02 am, Luke Davis wrote:
I completely agree with Brian.

For me, it's far easier to write a well worded and detailed email, with considered steps to solve problems that people can refer back to and follow, than to have to get involved with an audio service where you have to be much more real-time.

Anyone is free to create anything they want for interaction about NVDA, but I wonder if getting the really experienced technical people to engage with it is likely.  Personally, I just don't have time for that kind of headache.

Luke


 On Fri, 7 Aug 2020, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 06:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
      . . . Discord server or something by now, though? Email lists are a bit old-school at this point.

1.  Groups.io has a full web interface and can be accessed as an online forum, which is precisely what I do.  Those who prefer e-mail have that option, and
based on the number of groups on the site, and how quickly it grew, "old school" still has a lot of fans.2.  With regard to Discord, and this is coming from
a tech geek, mind you, remember the sage observation of Bill Gray:  "A lot of what appears to be progress is just so much technological rococo."   I've
never seen the attraction after my brief interactions with it. Others, of course, feel differently. --


Luke Davis
 

Hey, who you callin old? LOL

I'm as desirous of immediate gratification as the next person. However, I'm even more desirous of quality responses from a wide base of experience. In the open source software community, that mostly tends to be mailing lists and web based forums, of which this is both.

But again, you're free to start something else, and find out the answer to the age-old (or at least 30 year old) question: if you build it, will they come?
That's the beauty of open source.

Now, get off my lawn!

Luke

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Perhaps it's a "me" thing. I find email responses much slower on the whole, which is why I tried to turn to skype groups a while back for more prompt assistance. I would personally prefer a more realtime interaction rather than waiting hours for a response that might not be entirely helpful.

I will admit, however, that many of you are not as young (twenty-nine) as me, nor do many of you have as much free time. And perhaps I'm just impatient when I want a problem solved and should work on that rather than demand an entire group change how they do things for my own convenience.


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Lol!


Seriously, I meant no offense and it's just my impatience getting the better of me. That and my tendancy to not check my emails for months on end. I'm bad at the internet.


But we're getting waaaayyy off-topic. Sorry everyone!

On 8/08/2020 10:16 pm, Luke Davis wrote:
Hey, who you callin old?  LOL

I'm as desirous of immediate gratification as the next person. However, I'm even more desirous of quality responses from a wide base of experience.  In the open source software community, that mostly tends to be mailing lists and web based forums, of which this is both.

But again, you're free to start something else, and find out the answer to the age-old (or at least 30 year old) question: if you build it, will they come?
That's the beauty of open source.

Now, get off my lawn!

Luke

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Perhaps it's a "me" thing. I find email responses much slower on the whole, which is why I tried to turn to skype groups a while back for more prompt assistance. I would personally prefer a more realtime interaction rather than waiting hours for a response that might not be entirely helpful.

I will admit, however, that many of you are not as young (twenty-nine) as me, nor do many of you have as much free time. And perhaps I'm just impatient when I want a problem solved and should work on that rather than demand an entire group change how they do things for my own convenience.


Sarah k Alawami
 

If anyone needs help with discord, I'm still learning about it, but I manage 3 discord servers and own 2. If not, that's ok as well. Lol!

Take care and be blessed, and have a happy what ever day it is. I have a headache.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 8 Aug 2020, at 5:16, Luke Davis wrote:

Hey, who you callin old? LOL

I'm as desirous of immediate gratification as the next person. However, I'm even more desirous of quality responses from a wide base of experience. In the open source software community, that mostly tends to be mailing lists and web based forums, of which this is both.

But again, you're free to start something else, and find out the answer to the age-old (or at least 30 year old) question: if you build it, will they come?
That's the beauty of open source.

Now, get off my lawn!

Luke

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Perhaps it's a "me" thing. I find email responses much slower on the whole, which is why I tried to turn to skype groups a while back for more prompt assistance. I would personally prefer a more realtime interaction rather than waiting hours for a response that might not be entirely helpful.

I will admit, however, that many of you are not as young (twenty-nine) as me, nor do many of you have as much free time. And perhaps I'm just impatient when I want a problem solved and should work on that rather than demand an entire group change how they do things for my own convenience.


Quentin Christensen
 

Re the speed of getting replies to questions - You're going to get that wherever you can most quickly get the attention of the highest number of people who might be able to answer any given question.  I've never used Discord myself, but would follow if that was where the NVDA community was.

If you do have NVDA specific questions, another way of getting instant help is our telephone support.  It's not free, but it's a local US or Australian number you can call at any time.  You can purchase on its own or as part of the NVDA Productivity Bundle from the NV Access shop: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 7:42 AM Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

If anyone needs help with discord, I'm still learning about it, but I manage 3 discord servers and own 2. If not, that's ok as well. Lol!

Take care and be blessed, and have a happy what ever day it is. I have a headache.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 8 Aug 2020, at 5:16, Luke Davis wrote:

Hey, who you callin old? LOL

I'm as desirous of immediate gratification as the next person. However, I'm even more desirous of quality responses from a wide base of experience. In the open source software community, that mostly tends to be mailing lists and web based forums, of which this is both.

But again, you're free to start something else, and find out the answer to the age-old (or at least 30 year old) question: if you build it, will they come?
That's the beauty of open source.

Now, get off my lawn!

Luke

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Perhaps it's a "me" thing. I find email responses much slower on the whole, which is why I tried to turn to skype groups a while back for more prompt assistance. I would personally prefer a more realtime interaction rather than waiting hours for a response that might not be entirely helpful.

I will admit, however, that many of you are not as young (twenty-nine) as me, nor do many of you have as much free time. And perhaps I'm just impatient when I want a problem solved and should work on that rather than demand an entire group change how they do things for my own convenience.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager