Using gmail with "Basic HTML view" vs. "standard view"


Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 04:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself,
-
I'd attempt a coup, but then I would own this group!  Horrors!

The only thing I'll add is agreement with the general principle that revisiting "what I've always done" and "what I've always avoided" is a very good thing to do on a cyclic basis.  And particularly when it comes to webmail, but way more generally than that.

Nothing is so constant as change, and nowhere is change more constant than in the world of computing.  And when it comes to accessibility, it has done nothing but improve in the big picture as time has marched on (and that's acknowledging that there are episodes of "two steps forward, one step back").
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Jonathan Milam
 

What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:


Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Nimer Jaber
 

Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.


On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:
What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:


Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


molly the blind tech lover
 

i am really interested in this topic.
i just started using gmail on the web as of last week. and while it takes some getting used to i find it easier to use than outlook. i still use the gmail on my pixel 5 too.


On Wed, May 5, 2021, 7:36 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:
What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:


Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


David Moore
 

I totally agree with you! I like using the short cut keys for the internet like. I can go faster with basic HTML as well! I really don’t like the shortcuts built in to the Google suite!


On Wed, May 5, 2021, 4:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


Thomas N. Chan
 

As you use it often with the standard interface, I tried a few months back.
Its a real struggle but I can navigate up and down with just one hand to go through all those messages in the mailing list One arrow up or down, the next message If you use basic view, you are going to hit more than once.
You can even move left or right arrow when you can in the conversation view, to see the subject and who send it and also the date the message was sent.
If you are not interested to read that particular conversation or thread, mark it with an x. You can snooze, archive it or even trash it.


Regards,
Thomas N. Chan


On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:46 AM molly the blind tech lover <brainardmolly@...> wrote:

i am really interested in this topic.
i just started using gmail on the web as of last week. and while it takes some getting used to i find it easier to use than outlook. i still use the gmail on my pixel 5 too.


On Wed, May 5, 2021, 7:36 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:
What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:


Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


molly the blind tech lover
 

i've been using the basic html view. i am going to try the standard view and see which i prefer.


On Wed, May 5, 2021, 8:41 PM Thomas N. Chan <thomas.nathan.chan@...> wrote:
As you use it often with the standard interface, I tried a few months back.
Its a real struggle but I can navigate up and down with just one hand to go through all those messages in the mailing list One arrow up or down, the next message If you use basic view, you are going to hit more than once.
You can even move left or right arrow when you can in the conversation view, to see the subject and who send it and also the date the message was sent.
If you are not interested to read that particular conversation or thread, mark it with an x. You can snooze, archive it or even trash it.


Regards,
Thomas N. Chan


On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:46 AM molly the blind tech lover <brainardmolly@...> wrote:

i am really interested in this topic.
i just started using gmail on the web as of last week. and while it takes some getting used to i find it easier to use than outlook. i still use the gmail on my pixel 5 too.


On Wed, May 5, 2021, 7:36 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:
What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:


Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


I am sussing out gmail on the web you mention the 2 views and one standard view is better to use where are those 2 views found? if you wanted to sus them both out. Does it start off in standard view first? I did find the short cuts and turned them on been a radio button. \i also noted to change between browse and focus mode to see some sections in gmail. Plus noting shortcut keys etc that I might look at putting into a basic tutorial for gmail.


Gene nz


On 6/05/2021 8:31 am, accessible tech malayalam wrote:
Hello dear visually impaired friends,
Greetings from vi tech world!
Technology is developing in various different fields.
But, the future of technology is going to depend on websites and
web-based systems.
We, vi tech world is starting a training on fundamentals of web
development and WordPress for visually impaired learners.
Web development is a most demanded topic in the tech market since 2011.
This training is fully beginner level, and 100% accessible for
visually impaired candidates.
Anyone who has intermediate computer usage experience can join this course.
Note: no programming knowledge required.

Course details.
Name: fundamentals of web development and WordPress.
Start date for registration: May 6, 2021.
End date for registration: May 11, 2021.
Cost for the training: 3 USD or 221 INR.
Course duration: 20 days.

Concepts covered
1.       Fundamentals of html.
2.       Fundamentals of CSS
3.       Structural designing of websites for beginners.
4.       Basics of domain, hosting.
5.       Localhost for development.
6.       Hosting/ server management.
7.        SSL and Cloudflare.
8.       Introduction to PHP scripts and basic installation of WordPress.
9.       Fundamental setup of WordPress.
10.   Designing website interface.
11.   WordPress themes and plugins.
12.   Registering as a freelancer for online jobs on web development.
13.   Conclusion.

Prerequisites
Any visually impaired person that meets following criteria can join
this training.
·         Should be a visually impaired person
·         Should understand English
·         Should know at least basic computer skills and screen reader usage.
·         Should have their own laptop/desktop with windows 10).
·          Should have an active internet connection
·         Should be able to give 1 hour time per day for the course.

For more info and registration, contact us:
Email: haroonkareemofficial@...
Phone; +91 7593988738
WhatsApp: +918943031760
Telegram: https://t.me/tech_explorers



On 6/05/2021 10:16 am, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene NZ,


Yes, I think it does start out in standard view. I found a button at the top of the page for the basic HTML setting.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 7:40 PM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi


I am sussing out gmail on the web you mention the 2 views and one standard view is better to use where are those 2 views found? if you wanted to sus them both out. Does it start off in standard view first? I did find the short cuts and turned them on been a radio button. \i also noted to change between browse and focus mode to see some sections in gmail. Plus noting shortcut keys etc that I might look at putting into a basic tutorial for gmail.


Gene nz


On 6/05/2021 8:31 am, accessible tech malayalam wrote:
Hello dear visually impaired friends,
Greetings from vi tech world!
Technology is developing in various different fields.
But, the future of technology is going to depend on websites and
web-based systems.
We, vi tech world is starting a training on fundamentals of web
development and WordPress for visually impaired learners.
Web development is a most demanded topic in the tech market since 2011.
This training is fully beginner level, and 100% accessible for
visually impaired candidates.
Anyone who has intermediate computer usage experience can join this course.
Note: no programming knowledge required.

Course details.
Name: fundamentals of web development and WordPress.
Start date for registration: May 6, 2021.
End date for registration: May 11, 2021.
Cost for the training: 3 USD or 221 INR.
Course duration: 20 days.

Concepts covered
1.       Fundamentals of html.
2.       Fundamentals of CSS
3.       Structural designing of websites for beginners.
4.       Basics of domain, hosting.
5.       Localhost for development.
6.       Hosting/ server management.
7.        SSL and Cloudflare.
8.       Introduction to PHP scripts and basic installation of WordPress.
9.       Fundamental setup of WordPress.
10.   Designing website interface.
11.   WordPress themes and plugins.
12.   Registering as a freelancer for online jobs on web development.
13.   Conclusion.

Prerequisites
Any visually impaired person that meets following criteria can join
this training.
·         Should be a visually impaired person
·         Should understand English
·         Should know at least basic computer skills and screen reader usage.
·         Should have their own laptop/desktop with windows 10).
·          Should have an active internet connection
·         Should be able to give 1 hour time per day for the course.

For more info and registration, contact us:
Email: haroonkareemofficial@...
Phone; +91 7593988738
WhatsApp: +918943031760
Telegram: https://t.me/tech_explorers



On 6/05/2021 10:16 am, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi Rosemarie


I finally found it to see which view I was in and it seems it depends on the browser and which view you might get. but you can switch between them.. I will have to check again basically I went to settings, pressed the space bar thenchanged to focus mode then tab quite a few times to locate it. funny that up the top of the page it seemed like it was down the page quite a bit but maybe not.


the way I have it setup is through thunder bird and works well for me but is no harm learning the gmail interface as well I guess we never stop learning and if it helps else where is a good thing.


Gene nz


On 6/05/2021 4:27 pm, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

Hi, Gene NZ,


Yes, I think it does start out in standard view. I found a button at the top of the page for the basic HTML setting.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 7:40 PM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi


I am sussing out gmail on the web you mention the 2 views and one standard view is better to use where are those 2 views found? if you wanted to sus them both out. Does it start off in standard view first? I did find the short cuts and turned them on been a radio button. \i also noted to change between browse and focus mode to see some sections in gmail. Plus noting shortcut keys etc that I might look at putting into a basic tutorial for gmail.


Gene nz


On 6/05/2021 8:31 am, accessible tech malayalam wrote:
Hello dear visually impaired friends,
Greetings from vi tech world!
Technology is developing in various different fields.
But, the future of technology is going to depend on websites and
web-based systems.
We, vi tech world is starting a training on fundamentals of web
development and WordPress for visually impaired learners.
Web development is a most demanded topic in the tech market since 2011.
This training is fully beginner level, and 100% accessible for
visually impaired candidates.
Anyone who has intermediate computer usage experience can join this course.
Note: no programming knowledge required.

Course details.
Name: fundamentals of web development and WordPress.
Start date for registration: May 6, 2021.
End date for registration: May 11, 2021.
Cost for the training: 3 USD or 221 INR.
Course duration: 20 days.

Concepts covered
1.       Fundamentals of html.
2.       Fundamentals of CSS
3.       Structural designing of websites for beginners.
4.       Basics of domain, hosting.
5.       Localhost for development.
6.       Hosting/ server management.
7.        SSL and Cloudflare.
8.       Introduction to PHP scripts and basic installation of WordPress.
9.       Fundamental setup of WordPress.
10.   Designing website interface.
11.   WordPress themes and plugins.
12.   Registering as a freelancer for online jobs on web development.
13.   Conclusion.

Prerequisites
Any visually impaired person that meets following criteria can join
this training.
·         Should be a visually impaired person
·         Should understand English
·         Should know at least basic computer skills and screen reader usage.
·         Should have their own laptop/desktop with windows 10).
·          Should have an active internet connection
·         Should be able to give 1 hour time per day for the course.

For more info and registration, contact us:
Email: haroonkareemofficial@...
Phone; +91 7593988738
WhatsApp: +918943031760
Telegram: https://t.me/tech_explorers



On 6/05/2021 10:16 am, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,


This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.


Rosemarie



On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:
Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.
 
Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Jonathan Milam
 

Thanks, Nimer.  This is perfect.  In the standard view, is anyone else seeing that NVDA seems to pause after every 10 messages?  It’s almost like it is waiting for 10 more messages to load.  Is this something that is changeable?

 

Jonathan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using gmail with "Basic HTML view" vs. "standard view"

 

Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?

 



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:



Hello,

 

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,

 

This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

Hello,

 

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

 

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

 

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

 

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

 

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

 

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:

Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.

 

Louise

 

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

No, I am not noticing this. Which browser are you using? And, which version of NVDA? There have been improvements made to the responsiveness of Gmail, particularly in the new beta, though they can be toggled on experimentally in the developer settings of NVDA, and I don't remember seeing this issue before anyway.

You can change the number of conversations on a page. I do have mine set to 100.

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 6:18 AM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

Thanks, Nimer.  This is perfect.  In the standard view, is anyone else seeing that NVDA seems to pause after every 10 messages?  It’s almost like it is waiting for 10 more messages to load.  Is this something that is changeable?

 

Jonathan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using gmail with "Basic HTML view" vs. "standard view"

 

Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?

 



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:



Hello,

 

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,

 

This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

Hello,

 

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

 

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

 

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

 

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

 

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

 

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:

Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.

 

Louise

 

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Jonathan Milam
 

Thanks, Nimer, this was the issue.  NVDA was briefly pausing to load additional conversations.  Setting it to 100 prevents this for anyone else.


On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 9:41 AM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
Hello,

No, I am not noticing this. Which browser are you using? And, which version of NVDA? There have been improvements made to the responsiveness of Gmail, particularly in the new beta, though they can be toggled on experimentally in the developer settings of NVDA, and I don't remember seeing this issue before anyway.

You can change the number of conversations on a page. I do have mine set to 100.

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 6:18 AM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

Thanks, Nimer.  This is perfect.  In the standard view, is anyone else seeing that NVDA seems to pause after every 10 messages?  It’s almost like it is waiting for 10 more messages to load.  Is this something that is changeable?

 

Jonathan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using gmail with "Basic HTML view" vs. "standard view"

 

Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?

 



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:



Hello,

 

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,

 

This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

Hello,

 

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

 

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

 

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

 

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

 

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

 

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:

Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.

 

Louise

 

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  I should’ve indicated that I’d changed the subject line.  I’ve set my gmail to show 100 messages per page, so I wasn’t getting the difficulty displaying messages.  I believe that I was originally instructed to use “Basic HTML view” because it was more accessible.  I still find it easier to use because that’s what I’m used to.  When I tried to use “Standard view”, I found it difficult to navigate the interface, although that could be because I didn’t know how to enable the keyboard shortcuts.  If I remember correctly, there was a control on the page to use gmail with a screen reader, but I’m not sure about that.
 
Louise


Sarah k Alawami
 

No issues. I've loaded over 200 messages in my junk folder and have jumped with k to each successive one.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.
Finally, you can support my work on happs, the network of now.

On 6 May 2021, at 6:40, Nimer Jaber wrote:

Hello,

No, I am not noticing this. Which browser are you using? And, which version of NVDA? There have been improvements made to the responsiveness of Gmail, particularly in the new beta, though they can be toggled on experimentally in the developer settings of NVDA, and I don't remember seeing this issue before anyway.

You can change the number of conversations on a page. I do have mine set to 100.

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 6:18 AM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

Thanks, Nimer.  This is perfect.  In the standard view, is anyone else seeing that NVDA seems to pause after every 10 messages?  It’s almost like it is waiting for 10 more messages to load.  Is this something that is changeable?

 

Jonathan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using gmail with "Basic HTML view" vs. "standard view"

 

Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?

 



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:



Hello,

 

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,

 

This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

Hello,

 

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

 

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

 

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

 

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

 

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

 

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:

Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.

 

Louise

 

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Thomas N. Chan
 

It used to be basic html view is the best for screen reader but google has improve tremendously  I dare to say, at least 5 years or so.
the standard view is slow and clunky  and sometimes it just didn't load properly. but thats long time ago when I first started to use more than 10 years ago.

Regards,
Thomas N. Chan


On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 5:56 AM Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

No issues. I've loaded over 200 messages in my junk folder and have jumped with k to each successive one.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.
Finally, you can support my work on happs, the network of now.

On 6 May 2021, at 6:40, Nimer Jaber wrote:

Hello,

No, I am not noticing this. Which browser are you using? And, which version of NVDA? There have been improvements made to the responsiveness of Gmail, particularly in the new beta, though they can be toggled on experimentally in the developer settings of NVDA, and I don't remember seeing this issue before anyway.

You can change the number of conversations on a page. I do have mine set to 100.

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 6:18 AM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

Thanks, Nimer.  This is perfect.  In the standard view, is anyone else seeing that NVDA seems to pause after every 10 messages?  It’s almost like it is waiting for 10 more messages to load.  Is this something that is changeable?

 

Jonathan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using gmail with "Basic HTML view" vs. "standard view"

 

Once you open the message, press n. Then, if you want to read the message in more detail, press insert+space to go into browse mode, then navigate as you would a web page.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

What is the easiest way to navigate quickly to the body of a message in the GMAIL interface with NVDA?

 



On May 5, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:



Hello,

 

Navigate to settings, see all settings, and under the general tax, close to the bottom, there are radio buttons for turning on and off keyboard shortcuts. I do wish this was easier, nonetheless that is the process. It may be good to utilize screen reader find to find these controls.

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:01 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:

Hi, Nimer,

 

This sounds like a great thing to learn. How do you turn on the shortcut keys in gmail? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

On 5/5/2021 1:50 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:

Hello,

 

If Brian gets upset, we'll tell him to get over himself, but this topic is very dear to me, so we can make an exception, I am sure, for discussing non-NVDA topics on this list, although I will do my best to make it relate to NVDA.

 

Trainers are behind the curve on teaching people how to use web apps. Web app developers are creating these wonderful new accessible web apps, and blind people are still stuck with the old, non-web apps. This is a shame, a complete shame.

 

First, I recommend using Gmail on the web instead of Outlook as it does not require an office subscription. It does not require configuring and setting up of email clients. It can be used on any machine with a web browser. It is not necessarily screen reader specific, so for the most part, what works with JAWS will work with NVDA, will work with Narrator, will work with Orca, will work with Voiceover. About the only thing you must know is how to switch between browse and focus mode, or your particular screen reader's name for that command.

 

Why do I say that using Gmail with the standard interface is better than even the basic HTML mode? Because it is much more efficient to traverse through the email list, as long as keyboard shortcuts are turned on and learned. Press up/down arrow to move up and down the list. Press x to select messages. Press e or y to archive messages. Press # to delete them. Press enter to open a thread. Press n to read the next message in the thread, press p to read the prior message in the thread. Press r to reply, a to reply all, f to forward, b to snooze a message and act on it later. Press / to search the messages, and easily type the label name where that message can be found, such as in:sent or in:trash. Easily move messages and sort them into labels and bundles. Easily create events and tasks from emails. Easily chat with, and create meetings with people you wish to interact with, and do so right from Gmail if you wish. Press c to compose, press ctrl+shift+c to 'cc' and press ctrl+shift+b to BCC. Press ctrl+enter to send, ctrl+shift+d to discard. Press lots of commands to format text, create bulleted and numbered lists, adjust blockquote indentations, move to misspelled words, etc. Press tab to look through spelling and grammar suggestions, etc., etc. You can easily find a list of these keyboard shortcuts by pressing ? when logged into Gmail. If you don't like the shortcuts, you can create your own in the Gmail settings. And, much of what you learn can be applied to other sites, too. For instance, on Facebook and on Twitter, keyboard shortcuts exist to accomplish many tasks and to navigate to where you want to go, on YouTube Music and spottify, shortcuts exist to control music playback, and so on. Basic HTML mode doesn't have or allow for these shortcuts.

 

I wish trainers would touch more on web apps, but many still believe that the best way for people to access Gmail is through basic HTML, the best way to check email is with Outlook, and the best thing since sliced bread is a BrailleNote. Technology trainers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because many, not all, are so entrenched in what they know how to teach, how they learned to teach it, and what they themselves are using, that they refuse to open their minds to the possibility that there is a different way of teaching, a new standard out, new types of devices that may benefit people more than what they have been accustomed to. It's the same attitude that won't even show blind people an Android device, instead choosing that iOS is superior and should work best for everyone, never mind the needs and desires of the person they are working with.

 

So, if I can accomplish anything by sending this off-topic thread, and this babble, it is to get people to at least try to step out of the box, try something you may not be comfortable with, and accept that there may be tools and methods out there which will enhance your productivity and make your life easier that don't require struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird. By the way, I don't know if it is because checking email is so popular or what, but I tend to see more email-related qupestions across the varying tech lists with people struggling with Outlook and Thunderbird than pretty much anything else, and very few are using webmail, have given it a fair shot, and still fewer are using webmail through the standard interfaces. Google Docs is accessible, Gmail standard is accessible, Office 365 online web version is accessible, they may require a bit of a learning curve, but they are accessible and usable, and those tools tend to see the most work put into them these days in terms of accessibility and usability across many companies, simply because those tools can be used on Chromebooks, Macs, Linux, Windows, etc., without requiring separate desktop apps. All that is required is a browser and an Internet connection (not even a very fast one.)

 

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 1:28 PM Louise Pfau <lpfau@...> wrote:

Hi.  I find it easier to navigate the gmail interface with “Basic HTML view” vs. “Standard view”.  This is probably due to the fact that when I was first taught how to set up and work with my gmail account, I was instructed to use “Basic HTML view” in order to get the most accessible interface. I know this is not strictly related to NVDA though.

 

Louise

 

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!