Topics

web sites detecting a screen reader


Don H
 

It seems that more and more web sites are detecting that you have a screen reader and offer some kind of changes to the web site to accommodate a screen reader.  In some cases a message keeps popping up offering these mods and it is very difficult or impossible to turn them

off.

Is there a way to prevent a web page from detecting that you are using a screen reader?


 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


 

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Don H
 

OK I am a strong believer in using Google to find answers before I ask one here.  Giving me the term SR flag did not help much in resolving this issue.  I tried all kinds of searches using SR flag and got nothing.  Maybe you can be a little more helpful in hiding the screen reader from web pages.

On 10/10/2020 6:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


 

Don,

        Using the actual archive search is easier in this case than using a Google search, though when I use Google with the archive's site operator:

site:nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

along with "sr flag" I do get one result.

Here's the actual Groups.io archive search for same, which gives you the three topics, including this one, with "sr flag" or "sr-flag" in them:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search?q=sr+flag 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


 

Hi,

Ultimately, it is up to operating systems (such as Windows) to reveal this information to web browsers. On Windows, screen readers can inform Windows that they are active through a Windows API function named SystemParametersInfo (part of user32.dll), which is meant to be used by apps to adjust their workings, and I bet web browsers can expose this information to web authoring engines. Because this is a website-specific thing, I think it would be best to ask web authors to adjust their interfaces on the fly or add a box to suppress this (that last bit will be cleared if you delete web cookies).

To expand upon the API discussion: a few weeks ago some NVDA users working on PowerShell said an alert about PSReadline was issued at startup. A conversation with PowerShell team at Microsoft revealed that this is due to screen reader flag detection, which ironically uses the same Windows API function mentioned above (the difference is which flags are passed into modify system parameters globally). Apparently this was in response to reports that PSReadline module (used for cursor movement, editing and such) wasn’t working well with older NVDA releases, and I advised Microsoft to test PSReadline with newer NVDA releases.

As for web accessibility and screen reader detection on the web, an ongoing discussion between web standards stakeholders (web authors, browser vendors, assistive technology vendors, standards bodies, academics, and such) deals with how should software interpret seemingly conflicting ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) specifications. For example, should screen readers enter application/focus mode automatically when encountering what is essentially a web dialog, or how should screen readers announce form field descriptions and such. Making matters complicated is the speed of web development as you will find yourself meeting new browser releases every six weeks, and that “web standards implementations” on PC’s have pretty much became a battle between Mozilla on one side and Google and friends across the court. At first glance, NVDA may appear to provide the same experience, but trust me: there are internal differences between what Firefox says versus what Chromium family tells you (which, by the way, extends to how NVDA supports accessibility API’s, which merits a separate discussion; I’ll take a stab at giving you a tour of such topics if requested).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

OK I am a strong believer in using Google to find answers before I ask one here.  Giving me the term SR flag did not help much in resolving this issue.  I tried all kinds of searches using SR flag and got nothing.  Maybe you can be a little more helpful in hiding the screen reader from web pages.

On 10/10/2020 6:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Sean Murphy
 

I am not currently aware if any windows browser exposes the API you referenced in your email below. A lot of companies would like to get their hands on these metrics. The accessibility community is quite against this practise. For the simple bases, you are not developing web technology to support all users or in other words you are not using Human Centred design. The biggest fear comes from the old days of only text-only web pages built for screen readers. Technology today has the ability of supporting everyone, if best practises are used.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, 11 October 2020 12:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Hi,

Ultimately, it is up to operating systems (such as Windows) to reveal this information to web browsers. On Windows, screen readers can inform Windows that they are active through a Windows API function named SystemParametersInfo (part of user32.dll), which is meant to be used by apps to adjust their workings, and I bet web browsers can expose this information to web authoring engines. Because this is a website-specific thing, I think it would be best to ask web authors to adjust their interfaces on the fly or add a box to suppress this (that last bit will be cleared if you delete web cookies).

To expand upon the API discussion: a few weeks ago some NVDA users working on PowerShell said an alert about PSReadline was issued at startup. A conversation with PowerShell team at Microsoft revealed that this is due to screen reader flag detection, which ironically uses the same Windows API function mentioned above (the difference is which flags are passed into modify system parameters globally). Apparently this was in response to reports that PSReadline module (used for cursor movement, editing and such) wasn’t working well with older NVDA releases, and I advised Microsoft to test PSReadline with newer NVDA releases.

As for web accessibility and screen reader detection on the web, an ongoing discussion between web standards stakeholders (web authors, browser vendors, assistive technology vendors, standards bodies, academics, and such) deals with how should software interpret seemingly conflicting ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) specifications. For example, should screen readers enter application/focus mode automatically when encountering what is essentially a web dialog, or how should screen readers announce form field descriptions and such. Making matters complicated is the speed of web development as you will find yourself meeting new browser releases every six weeks, and that “web standards implementations” on PC’s have pretty much became a battle between Mozilla on one side and Google and friends across the court. At first glance, NVDA may appear to provide the same experience, but trust me: there are internal differences between what Firefox says versus what Chromium family tells you (which, by the way, extends to how NVDA supports accessibility API’s, which merits a separate discussion; I’ll take a stab at giving you a tour of such topics if requested).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

OK I am a strong believer in using Google to find answers before I ask one here.  Giving me the term SR flag did not help much in resolving this issue.  I tried all kinds of searches using SR flag and got nothing.  Maybe you can be a little more helpful in hiding the screen reader from web pages.

On 10/10/2020 6:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Day Joseph and Group:  Is it possible to continue this discussion?  It might be helpful to have this discussed on insiders email group- as well.  Is there anyway to have a form set up for how this could be used in the future, so, there isn't a problem with screen readers and web sites?

Dave


On 10/10/2020 6:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Ultimately, it is up to operating systems (such as Windows) to reveal this information to web browsers. On Windows, screen readers can inform Windows that they are active through a Windows API function named SystemParametersInfo (part of user32.dll), which is meant to be used by apps to adjust their workings, and I bet web browsers can expose this information to web authoring engines. Because this is a website-specific thing, I think it would be best to ask web authors to adjust their interfaces on the fly or add a box to suppress this (that last bit will be cleared if you delete web cookies).

To expand upon the API discussion: a few weeks ago some NVDA users working on PowerShell said an alert about PSReadline was issued at startup. A conversation with PowerShell team at Microsoft revealed that this is due to screen reader flag detection, which ironically uses the same Windows API function mentioned above (the difference is which flags are passed into modify system parameters globally). Apparently this was in response to reports that PSReadline module (used for cursor movement, editing and such) wasn’t working well with older NVDA releases, and I advised Microsoft to test PSReadline with newer NVDA releases.

As for web accessibility and screen reader detection on the web, an ongoing discussion between web standards stakeholders (web authors, browser vendors, assistive technology vendors, standards bodies, academics, and such) deals with how should software interpret seemingly conflicting ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) specifications. For example, should screen readers enter application/focus mode automatically when encountering what is essentially a web dialog, or how should screen readers announce form field descriptions and such. Making matters complicated is the speed of web development as you will find yourself meeting new browser releases every six weeks, and that “web standards implementations” on PC’s have pretty much became a battle between Mozilla on one side and Google and friends across the court. At first glance, NVDA may appear to provide the same experience, but trust me: there are internal differences between what Firefox says versus what Chromium family tells you (which, by the way, extends to how NVDA supports accessibility API’s, which merits a separate discussion; I’ll take a stab at giving you a tour of such topics if requested).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

OK I am a strong believer in using Google to find answers before I ask one here.  Giving me the term SR flag did not help much in resolving this issue.  I tried all kinds of searches using SR flag and got nothing.  Maybe you can be a little more helpful in hiding the screen reader from web pages.

On 10/10/2020 6:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Jonathan COHN
 

I have only come across this once or twice. In that case, the site was not recognizing the Screen Reader, but a javascript plugin for the site kept updating a lie region to say something like "for better screen reader response use our plugin. So I turned on the plugin, and the noises went away, but the site was pretty horrible to use after that. 
JAWS and VoiceOVer have ways to ignore live region updates on noisy pages, so I expect that NVDA does too.
One other possibility... Could one block a specific JS package on a site? Or of course, you could tell your browser to not allow JS and that would prevent this extra mess.  


Gene
 

I haven't found any way to turn off speech in live regions. It is important to be able to control this behavior.

Also, there is no reason figure and out of figure should be announced. It is formatting information that is of no use or interest to the general user. It should be off by default as should bloc quotes and perhaps other information. I have found no way to turn off notification of figures.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan COHN via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

I have only come across this once or twice. In that case, the site was not recognizing the Screen Reader, but a javascript plugin for the site kept updating a lie region to say something like "for better screen reader response use our plugin. So I turned on the plugin, and the noises went away, but the site was pretty horrible to use after that.
JAWS and VoiceOVer have ways to ignore live region updates on noisy pages, so I expect that NVDA does too.
One other possibility... Could one block a specific JS package on a site? Or of course, you could tell your browser to not allow JS and that would prevent this extra mess.


 

Gene, et. al.,

            Has anyone ever thought about creating a document of, if not frequently used, at least reasonably frequently requested settings tweaks to turn certain behaviors/announcements off and on?

             As time goes by, there are times where new features come into play where the default doesn't suit, and there are plenty of instances where existing ones don't, either.  But, lets face it, some settings in the vastness of all available settings in NVDA are unlikely to ever be touched by most users.

             Having this in some downloadable form, subject to updating "as needed" by its maintainer, is very handy indeed, and addresses a need.  In this case, I am not volunteering to be the maintainer, at least not initially, simply because I am far less likely to ever know which of these settings is found annoying by someone or a number of someones who actually are daily-driver users of a screen reader, NVDA, in this case.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Gene
 

I'm not sure there are more than perhaps two or three such settings but my question is why they are set as they are or are not user controlable? Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 1:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

Gene, et. al.,

Has anyone ever thought about creating a document of, if not frequently used, at least reasonably frequently requested settings tweaks to turn certain behaviors/announcements off and on?

As time goes by, there are times where new features come into play where the default doesn't suit, and there are plenty of instances where existing ones don't, either. But, lets face it, some settings in the vastness of all available settings in NVDA are unlikely to ever be touched by most users.

Having this in some downloadable form, subject to updating "as needed" by its maintainer, is very handy indeed, and addresses a need. In this case, I am not volunteering to be the maintainer, at least not initially, simply because I am far less likely to ever know which of these settings is found annoying by someone or a number of someones who actually are daily-driver users of a screen reader, NVDA, in this case.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?
-
Gene, I cannot answer this, other than to say if you don't have a GitHub Account for accessing the NVAccess/NVDA issues system you should consider getting one.  This would be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, if there is no clear way to control it documented.

One of the big things lacking, as far as I'm concerned, in NVDA is the ability to search settings for a given word or phrase.  Any software as complex as NVDA is going to have a number of settings that it's virtually impossible for any single person to remember in their entirety, or even where they are in the hierarchy.  Given how software of this complexity is developed, and grows over time, certain settings may be in what seem to be very odd locations because where they now would seem to be logically placed did not even exist when they came into being.  Settings searches have really become a necessity.  If you were able to search settings on the word "figure" that should answer your current question, but you can't.  But this is not an issue, per se, but a feature request/suggestion if we're talking a general purpose settings search.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Gene
 

I was asking in case others knew the answers. I searched the relevant settings areas and found nothing, the relevant areas being Document Formatting and Browse Mode Settings. I haven't chedcked Github. Perhaps I should have, I just thought these might be annoyances that might not bother others enough that an issue was filed, but someone may have done so.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 4:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?-
Gene, I cannot answer this, other than to say if you don't have a GitHub Account for accessing the NVAccess/NVDA issues system you should consider getting one. This would be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, if there is no clear way to control it documented.

One of the big things lacking, as far as I'm concerned, in NVDA is the ability to search settings for a given word or phrase. Any software as complex as NVDA is going to have a number of settings that it's virtually impossible for any single person to remember in their entirety, or even where they are in the hierarchy. Given how software of this complexity is developed, and grows over time, certain settings may be in what seem to be very odd locations because where they now would seem to be logically placed did not even exist when they came into being. Settings searches have really become a necessity. If you were able to search settings on the word "figure" that should answer your current question, but you can't. But this is not an issue, per se, but a feature request/suggestion if we're talking a general purpose settings search.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


 

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Gene wrote:
I was asking in case others knew the answers.
-
I guess my central point, whether it's you asking or someone else, is that there is likely a small number of settings like this that will be asked about again and again.  Having a piece of user-maintained documentation for same can prove really helpful.

I'm not trying to put this in anyone's lap specifically, but tossing the idea out there.  I am maintaining something analogous in a completely different sphere, and not software related.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Gene
 

Perhaps. I can't think of more than perhaps three or four settings but having something discussing them might be helpful.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 8:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Gene wrote:
I was asking in case others knew the answers.-
I guess my central point, whether it's you asking or someone else, is that there is likely a small number of settings like this that will be asked about again and again. Having a piece of user-maintained documentation for same can prove really helpful.

I'm not trying to put this in anyone's lap specifically, but tossing the idea out there. I am maintaining something analogous in a completely different sphere, and not software related.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


Luke Robinett
 

Gene, you can tell NVDA not to announce dynamic content. This is probably the setting you had in mind. Perhaps you could create a separate configuration profile with that setting disabled and then switch to it only when you encounter those problematic websites?

On Oct 21, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I was asking in case others knew the answers. I searched the relevant settings areas and found nothing, the relevant areas being Document Formatting and Browse Mode Settings. I haven't chedcked Github. Perhaps I should have, I just thought these might be annoyances that might not bother others enough that an issue was filed, but someone may have done so.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 4:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?-
Gene, I cannot answer this, other than to say if you don't have a GitHub Account for accessing the NVAccess/NVDA issues system you should consider getting one. This would be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, if there is no clear way to control it documented.

One of the big things lacking, as far as I'm concerned, in NVDA is the ability to search settings for a given word or phrase. Any software as complex as NVDA is going to have a number of settings that it's virtually impossible for any single person to remember in their entirety, or even where they are in the hierarchy. Given how software of this complexity is developed, and grows over time, certain settings may be in what seem to be very odd locations because where they now would seem to be logically placed did not even exist when they came into being. Settings searches have really become a necessity. If you were able to search settings on the word "figure" that should answer your current question, but you can't. But this is not an issue, per se, but a feature request/suggestion if we're talking a general purpose settings search.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn









Luke Robinett
 

As a blind person, NVDA user and web developer myself, I don’t recommend telling the screen reader to ignore the SR flag. It sounds like there are a few misguided websites out there who are implementing heavy-handed screen reader experiences on their pages, but you know when you hear those options at the top of a page to jump to navigation, jump to main content, etc.? Those options don’t appear for sighted users. Behind the scenes, we use CSS media queries to expose those options only when a screen reader is detected, and I think we all agree those features are generally helpful. A similar technique is used when a graphical icon is depicted visually but it’s actual purpose ”menu,” ”settings,” ”submit,” etc. is spoken aloud to screen reader users. In short, you might find websites become far less accessible if you tell them to ignore the presence of a screen reader.

On Oct 21, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Perhaps. I can't think of more than perhaps three or four settings but having something discussing them might be helpful.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 8:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Gene wrote:
I was asking in case others knew the answers.-
I guess my central point, whether it's you asking or someone else, is that there is likely a small number of settings like this that will be asked about again and again. Having a piece of user-maintained documentation for same can prove really helpful.

I'm not trying to put this in anyone's lap specifically, but tossing the idea out there. I am maintaining something analogous in a completely different sphere, and not software related.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn









 

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:25 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
you know when you hear those options at the top of a page to jump to navigation, jump to main content, etc.? Those options don’t appear for sighted users.
-
Yup.  Those of us (I'm sighted) who've never touched a screen reader never even know they're there.  These features are the Mr. Cellophane of web coding for the sighted (and for those who don't get the reference, go to YouTube and look up cellophane and Chicago).

There are all sorts of things done to improve accessibility that are intentionally hidden from view because they're useless (and would be darned annoying, actually)  unless you happen to be using a screen reader.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Hope Williamson
 

I use a screen reader, and I still think they're annoying. Maybe that's just me, though. They get in the way.

On 10/22/2020 10:51 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:25 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
you know when you hear those options at the top of a page to jump to navigation, jump to main content, etc.? Those options don’t appear for sighted users.
-
Yup.  Those of us (I'm sighted) who've never touched a screen reader never even know they're there.  These features are the Mr. Cellophane of web coding for the sighted (and for those who don't get the reference, go to YouTube and look up cellophane and Chicago).

There are all sorts of things done to improve accessibility that are intentionally hidden from view because they're useless (and would be darned annoying, actually)  unless you happen to be using a screen reader.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn