Webex Accessibility Regression


kyleborah1234321@...
 

Hello all,

As a bit of an introduction, I have recently started a software developer job where I am consistently using Windows again after  trying to run far away from it for the past 6 years. We use WebEx for meetings and early last week (the week of the 14-18 of June 2021), The join a meeting screen has suddenly become inaccessible. This is the screen that lets you make sure you have your video and audio set up correctly before joining. NVDA sees the window, but can not see anything in it. If I perform OCR with NVDA+r, It says, "Content is not visible." I have received visual confirmation that the window is on the screen and looks okay. I can also access it with narrator. But NVDA doesn't work. I have tried launching NVDA under an admin account and with addons disabled, but nothing seems to work.
Obviously I can join from my phone, and I can get into the meetings with narrator, But I would really like this to work with NVDA like it used to.

Has anyone come across this? I tried to do some searching on the page here, but it doesn't seem you are able to search here on groups.io. Am I mistaken about this?


 

Can you give:  The version and build number of Windows 10, the version of NVDA you're using?

Yes, you can search the group archives.  I need to update this tutorial because there have been some tweaks by Groups.io to the presentation of results, but most of it is still applicable:  Searching the NVDA Group Archive

 

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Afik Souffir <afik.souffir@...>
 

Hi
I suggest you to contact the devlopers of webex and tell them about the issue. 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of kyleborah1234321@... <kyleborah1234321@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:07:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Webex Accessibility Regression
 
Hello all,

As a bit of an introduction, I have recently started a software developer job where I am consistently using Windows again after  trying to run far away from it for the past 6 years. We use WebEx for meetings and early last week (the week of the 14-18 of June 2021), The join a meeting screen has suddenly become inaccessible. This is the screen that lets you make sure you have your video and audio set up correctly before joining. NVDA sees the window, but can not see anything in it. If I perform OCR with NVDA+r, It says, "Content is not visible." I have received visual confirmation that the window is on the screen and looks okay. I can also access it with narrator. But NVDA doesn't work. I have tried launching NVDA under an admin account and with addons disabled, but nothing seems to work.
Obviously I can join from my phone, and I can get into the meetings with narrator, But I would really like this to work with NVDA like it used to.

Has anyone come across this? I tried to do some searching on the page here, but it doesn't seem you are able to search here on groups.io. Am I mistaken about this?


kyleborah1234321@...
 

Windows 10 1903 (64-bit) build 18362.1256
NVDA: Version: 2020.4
WebEx: Version: 41.6.1.19162
 


Brian Moore
 

yes, I can confirm exactly the same behavior. Have raised it with Cisco. their support page seems to indicate support for JAWS which I can confirm. With Jaws, current update still reads.


Brian.

Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123
On 2021-06-23 10:42 a.m., Afik Souffir wrote:

Hi
I suggest you to contact the devlopers of webex and tell them about the issue. 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of kyleborah1234321@... <kyleborah1234321@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:07:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Webex Accessibility Regression
 
Hello all,

As a bit of an introduction, I have recently started a software developer job where I am consistently using Windows again after  trying to run far away from it for the past 6 years. We use WebEx for meetings and early last week (the week of the 14-18 of June 2021), The join a meeting screen has suddenly become inaccessible. This is the screen that lets you make sure you have your video and audio set up correctly before joining. NVDA sees the window, but can not see anything in it. If I perform OCR with NVDA+r, It says, "Content is not visible." I have received visual confirmation that the window is on the screen and looks okay. I can also access it with narrator. But NVDA doesn't work. I have tried launching NVDA under an admin account and with addons disabled, but nothing seems to work.
Obviously I can join from my phone, and I can get into the meetings with narrator, But I would really like this to work with NVDA like it used to.

Has anyone come across this? I tried to do some searching on the page here, but it doesn't seem you are able to search here on groups.io. Am I mistaken about this?


 

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:47 AM, <kyleborah1234321@...> wrote:
Windows 10 1903 (64-bit) build 18362.1256
-
Whoever is maintaining Windows 10 at this site also needs to get off the stick.  Having 1903 at this point in time is jaw-dropping, even for educational or enterprise installations.  It is out of support, by months now, as 1903 is what would be called, in current terms, an H1 (first half of the year) release which is in support for 18 months from the date of release.

It needs to be brought up to a supported version, pronto.

And thanks, very much, for providing these details.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


kyleborah1234321@...
 

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:09 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Whoever is maintaining Windows 10 at this site also needs to get off the stick.  Having 1903 at this point in time is jaw-dropping, even for educational or enterprise installations.  It is out of support, by months now, as 1903 is what would be called, in current terms, an H1 (first half of the year) release which is in support for 18 months from the date of release.

It needs to be brought up to a supported version, pronto.

I would agree, but I have one word for you: government.


 

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 11:21 AM, <kyleborah1234321@...> wrote:
I would agree, but I have one word for you: government.
-
Government or no government, unless they have a special arrangement with Microsoft for extended support (and they might), it is absolutely unsafe to use an out-of-support version of Windows 10.

Given what's been in the news, heads would, and should, roll were a compromise to occur on a network where all the machines were running an unsupported version of Windows 10.

IT departments are always "the last to update," putting it off as long as they can, but there are limits.  And no one in charge who has one lick of sense would keep an out of support version running.  Now I'm really curious as to whether some sort of extended support is in place, because there are these arrangements for enterprise editions in particular.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


tim
 

Your going to find a lot of companies along with the government are so far back on upgrades its funny.

Here in NC they are still using xp in local and federal buildings. Even the call center I worked at 10 years ago is still using xp with JFW9.

The reason for that is cost. It cost to move up and site licenses are not cheep.




On 6/23/2021 11:21 AM, kyleborah1234321@... wrote:
On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:09 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Whoever is maintaining Windows 10 at this site also needs to get off the stick.  Having 1903 at this point in time is jaw-dropping, even for educational or enterprise installations.  It is out of support, by months now, as 1903 is what would be called, in current terms, an H1 (first half of the year) release which is in support for 18 months from the date of release.

It needs to be brought up to a supported version, pronto.

I would agree, but I have one word for you: government.


Olcay AŞCI
 

Hi,

 

We also use WebX for meetings at the company I work for. This is exactly the problem I'm having as well. We have raised these issues with local Cisco representatives serving our company. They told us we should use the web version for a while. This is ridiculous; because using the web version slows me down in the business environment. As long as I don't need to make a presentation at the meeting, I attend the meetings using a mobile application. I use the web version when I need to present. cisco did not use a standard interface shell in its WebX implementation. This seems to be due entirely to that.

 

Olcay Aşcı

NVDA Uzmanlık Sertifikası (NVDA Certified Expert)

Digital Product Designer (Dijital Ürün Tasarımcısı) Vodafone Türkiye

En İyi Deneyim projesi yöneticisi ve sahibi

Takip edin:

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LinkedIn Olcay Aşcı FaceBook Olcay Aşcı

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of kyleborah1234321@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Webex Accessibility Regression

 

Hello all,

As a bit of an introduction, I have recently started a software developer job where I am consistently using Windows again after  trying to run far away from it for the past 6 years. We use WebEx for meetings and early last week (the week of the 14-18 of June 2021), The join a meeting screen has suddenly become inaccessible. This is the screen that lets you make sure you have your video and audio set up correctly before joining. NVDA sees the window, but can not see anything in it. If I perform OCR with NVDA+r, It says, "Content is not visible." I have received visual confirmation that the window is on the screen and looks okay. I can also access it with narrator. But NVDA doesn't work. I have tried launching NVDA under an admin account and with addons disabled, but nothing seems to work.
Obviously I can join from my phone, and I can get into the meetings with narrator, But I would really like this to work with NVDA like it used to.

Has anyone come across this? I tried to do some searching on the page here, but it doesn't seem you are able to search here on groups.io. Am I mistaken about this?


 

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 12:50 PM, Olcay AŞCI wrote:
They told us we should use the web version for a while. This is ridiculous; because using the web version slows me down in the business environment.
-
That's a perfectly appropriate workaround.  Would you rather have no access in a business environment?

No one has said that the underlying issue will not be addressed and I'd actually be surprised if it wasn't, eventually.

You're a part of the development cycle, and the prioritization that goes into it, like anyone else.  Being given a functional workaround, even if it's suboptimal, is in no way, shape, or form "ridiculous" for use while a fix is being worked on (or even, worst case, if it weren't and that were your only option - it's still a workable option).

No company is obligated to give you accessibility in your preferred format, just that you be given accessibility.  Just as no company is obligated to provide you with your preferred screen reader, just that a screen reader capable of being used for the work expected is provided.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


 

Well yeah.

Its why I have been updating initial stuff ahead of time but it was the main reason why I switched to nvda for my primary.

In the early days before I knew things would drop out completely as in reguards to vista and even xp, I retired my flatbed scanner ahead of time and my old recorder in stages.

That saved me 1000 bucks I would have had to spend all at once.

Then there was my pc which I had to update.

Then there were programs, and while a lot were opensource some I had to update.

Thankfully I was able to signup for the dolphin beta last year which meant I got my old screen reader back and didn't have to fork out for that to.

However that was wwhy I didn't update.

If I had to buy jaws myself I'd probably still be back on xxp to.

My next push up will be usb c when that appears, and how my system will continue.

With the end of most laptops without secondary storage, my next plan is either a desk tower or one of those miniture pcs so who knows.


I'd prefer to keep going as I have but that may not be possible, certainly its going to cost a lot less to move away from a full laptop especially since most of my work is at my desk.

I mean I will have a laptop for some remote stuff but it aint going to be my primary driver.

Though for those on windows 7 and 8 from winaero amd has just dropped support for their hardware so once hardware support does drop there will need to be forced updates.

But at a university where I do a lot of work they can't afford upgrading from xp for some applications and devices.

Those devices and applications cost millions to buy.

They will cost a lot more to upgrade and even before covid funding was being slashed all over the place.

I'd imagine it will be harder now.

My mum's work has just done an emergency update on their printer because it failed last year.

They thought about doing something in january as their unit kept jamming and being really bad.

They have just got an emergency order for a new unit and it finally came yesterday so yeah everything is going up in price.




On 24/06/2021 4:26 am, tim wrote:

Your going to find a lot of companies along with the government are so far back on upgrades its funny.

Here in NC they are still using xp in local and federal buildings. Even the call center I worked at 10 years ago is still using xp with JFW9.

The reason for that is cost. It cost to move up and site licenses are not cheep.




On 6/23/2021 11:21 AM, kyleborah1234321@... wrote:
On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:09 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Whoever is maintaining Windows 10 at this site also needs to get off the stick.  Having 1903 at this point in time is jaw-dropping, even for educational or enterprise installations.  It is out of support, by months now, as 1903 is what would be called, in current terms, an H1 (first half of the year) release which is in support for 18 months from the date of release.

It needs to be brought up to a supported version, pronto.

I would agree, but I have one word for you: government.
.


Blaster
 

I'm not familiar with the Webex platform, however, When GoToMeeting
made a change to their interface I faced a similar issue. It turned
out that when stuck at the blank window there was a button highlighted
that said "Join Meeting", at which time pressing the spacebar advanced
me to the actual meeting room. I'm not sure if it's the same, but try
pressing the spacebar to see if you advance to the meeting room.

Also, The links for this list are posted on the bottom of each posting
and YES there is a searchable groups.io page for this list and it can
be found here.

| NVDA Archive Search Page on Groups.io:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search

HTH,
Blaster

On 6/23/21, kyleborah1234321@gmail.com <kyleborah1234321@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello all,

As a bit of an introduction, I have recently started a software developer
job where I am consistently using Windows again after trying to run far
away from it for the past 6 years. We use WebEx for meetings and early last
week (the week of the 14-18 of June 2021), The join a meeting screen has
suddenly become inaccessible. This is the screen that lets you make sure you
have your video and audio set up correctly before joining. NVDA sees the
window, but can not see anything in it. If I perform OCR with NVDA+r, It
says, "Content is not visible." I have received visual confirmation that the
window is on the screen and looks okay. I can also access it with narrator.
But NVDA doesn't work. I have tried launching NVDA under an admin account
and with addons disabled, but nothing seems to work.
Obviously I can join from my phone, and I can get into the meetings with
narrator, But I would really like this to work with NVDA like it used to.

Has anyone come across this? I tried to do some searching on the page here,
but it doesn't seem you are able to search here on groups.io. Am I mistaken
about this?






Arlene
 

Same here! I threw mine out the window just recently!  I don’t use it anymore.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: June 23, 2021 11:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Webex Accessibility Regression

 

Well yeah.

Its why I have been updating initial stuff ahead of time but it was the main reason why I switched to nvda for my primary.

In the early days before I knew things would drop out completely as in reguards to vista and even xp, I retired my flatbed scanner ahead of time and my old recorder in stages.

That saved me 1000 bucks I would have had to spend all at once.

Then there was my pc which I had to update.

Then there were programs, and while a lot were opensource some I had to update.

Thankfully I was able to signup for the dolphin beta last year which meant I got my old screen reader back and didn't have to fork out for that to.

However that was wwhy I didn't update.

If I had to buy jaws myself I'd probably still be back on xxp to.

My next push up will be usb c when that appears, and how my system will continue.

With the end of most laptops without secondary storage, my next plan is either a desk tower or one of those miniture pcs so who knows.

 

I'd prefer to keep going as I have but that may not be possible, certainly its going to cost a lot less to move away from a full laptop especially since most of my work is at my desk.

I mean I will have a laptop for some remote stuff but it aint going to be my primary driver.

Though for those on windows 7 and 8 from winaero amd has just dropped support for their hardware so once hardware support does drop there will need to be forced updates.

But at a university where I do a lot of work they can't afford upgrading from xp for some applications and devices.

Those devices and applications cost millions to buy.

They will cost a lot more to upgrade and even before covid funding was being slashed all over the place.

I'd imagine it will be harder now.

My mum's work has just done an emergency update on their printer because it failed last year.

They thought about doing something in january as their unit kept jamming and being really bad.

They have just got an emergency order for a new unit and it finally came yesterday so yeah everything is going up in price.

 

 

 

On 24/06/2021 4:26 am, tim wrote:

Your going to find a lot of companies along with the government are so far back on upgrades its funny.

Here in NC they are still using xp in local and federal buildings. Even the call center I worked at 10 years ago is still using xp with JFW9.

The reason for that is cost. It cost to move up and site licenses are not cheep.

 

 

 

On 6/23/2021 11:21 AM, kyleborah1234321@... wrote:

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:09 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:


Whoever is maintaining Windows 10 at this site also needs to get off the stick.  Having 1903 at this point in time is jaw-dropping, even for educational or enterprise installations.  It is out of support, by months now, as 1903 is what would be called, in current terms, an H1 (first half of the year) release which is in support for 18 months from the date of release.

It needs to be brought up to a supported version, pronto.


I would agree, but I have one word for you: government.

.

 


Arlene
 

Seriously? You’ve got to be joking. These companies need to update their stuff.  The web changes its code all the time. IE is not supported anymore.  That is ridiculous!

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: tim
Sent: June 23, 2021 9:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Webex Accessibility Regression

 

Your going to find a lot of companies along with the government are so far back on upgrades its funny.

Here in NC they are still using xp in local and federal buildings. Even the call center I worked at 10 years ago is still using xp with JFW9.

The reason for that is cost. It cost to move up and site licenses are not cheep.

 

 

 

On 6/23/2021 11:21 AM, kyleborah1234321@... wrote:

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:09 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:


Whoever is maintaining Windows 10 at this site also needs to get off the stick.  Having 1903 at this point in time is jaw-dropping, even for educational or enterprise installations.  It is out of support, by months now, as 1903 is what would be called, in current terms, an H1 (first half of the year) release which is in support for 18 months from the date of release.

It needs to be brought up to a supported version, pronto.


I would agree, but I have one word for you: government.

 


JM Casey
 

Oh, I’ve seen it too. I trained for a transcription company on an XP machine just a couple of years ago. Old software never reallyd ies, it just kind of fades away.

I guess it’s fine if you’re not connected to an outside network. Regular XP isn’t even NT windows so I think (?) it’s usually an isolated machine?

I’d certainly be worried about North Carolina at this point though.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: June 23, 2021 06:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Webex Accessibility Regression

 

Seriously? You’ve got to be joking. These companies need to update their stuff.  The web changes its code all the time. IE is not supported anymore.  That is ridiculous!

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: tim
Sent: June 23, 2021 9:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Webex Accessibility Regression

 

Your going to find a lot of companies along with the government are so far back on upgrades its funny.

Here in NC they are still using xp in local and federal buildings. Even the call center I worked at 10 years ago is still using xp with JFW9.

The reason for that is cost. It cost to move up and site licenses are not cheep.

 

 

 

On 6/23/2021 11:21 AM, kyleborah1234321@... wrote:

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:09 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:


Whoever is maintaining Windows 10 at this site also needs to get off the stick.  Having 1903 at this point in time is jaw-dropping, even for educational or enterprise installations.  It is out of support, by months now, as 1903 is what would be called, in current terms, an H1 (first half of the year) release which is in support for 18 months from the date of release.

It needs to be brought up to a supported version, pronto.


I would agree, but I have one word for you: government.

 


 

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 06:31 PM, JM Casey wrote:
it’s usually an isolated machine?
-
There are legitimate reasons, particularly in the case of obsolete software that does things like running actual equipment that has never been rewritten, and where replacing the equipment it controls would be insanely expensive and/or wasteful since it still works, to have out-of-support versions of Windows in use IF IT IS AIR GAPPED FROM CYBERSPACE.

tim wrote, in part:  Your going to find a lot of companies along with the government are so far back on upgrades its funny.

 Well, having worked in state government for years, I can say that you're absolutely correct, but only to the extent that the latest version of "thing X" is not typically in use.  But out of support, entirely out of support, software, and particularly office suites and operating systems, are virtually never in broad use.  It violates both IT policies and, in many places, the law.  Security does matter, and the easiest way to create massive security holes is the use of unsupported software that will never have any patches in contact with cyberspace.

What might be going on in tiny town governments "in the middle of nowhere" is another story.  And no one should believe those circumstances, whatever they may be, can be considered a representative sample of common practice in larger, better funded, government entities with dedicated IT departments.

But I can absolutely agree that government IT departments, as a general rule, tend to upgrade/update at the very tail end of the window prior to support dropping entirely.  I worked on XP for several years after 7 came into existence (and both were still supported by Microsoft) and there was a lot of resistance in some quarters to updating to Windows 7 even after most had been using it on their own home machines for quite a while.  And a lot of that is driven, unfortunately, on how poorly many deal with change and the avalanche of calls that come for even the simplest changes in the UI, among other things.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Sean Murphy
 

I like to inform you that Cisco does not test with NVDA.  When I work for them a couple years ago in their accessibility group I was the only one who used NVDA for testing.  You need to raise this with the accessibility@... mailer and really push the point. There are still bugs I’ve seen two years ago that they haven’t fixed.  If you’re in a government USA then I would be using section 508 as a  leverage  to push this point.    

My experience is the part 

On 24 Jun 2021, at 12:34 am, kyleborah1234321@... wrote:

Hello all,

As a bit of an introduction, I have recently started a software developer job where I am consistently using Windows again after  trying to run far away from it for the past 6 years. We use WebEx for meetings and early last week (the week of the 14-18 of June 2021), The join a meeting screen has suddenly become inaccessible. This is the screen that lets you make sure you have your video and audio set up correctly before joining. NVDA sees the window, but can not see anything in it. If I perform OCR with NVDA+r, It says, "Content is not visible." I have received visual confirmation that the window is on the screen and looks okay. I can also access it with narrator. But NVDA doesn't work. I have tried launching NVDA under an admin account and with addons disabled, but nothing seems to work.
Obviously I can join from my phone, and I can get into the meetings with narrator, But I would really like this to work with NVDA like it used to.

Has anyone come across this? I tried to do some searching on the page here, but it doesn't seem you are able to search here on groups.io. Am I mistaken about this?


Martin O'Sullivan
 

Hi I have the same issue Webex will no longer work with NVDA.


 

On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 03:46 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:
I like to inform you that Cisco does not test with NVDA.  When I work for them a couple years ago in their accessibility group I was the only one who used NVDA for testing.  You need to raise this with the accessibility@... mailer and really push the point.
-
And as much as I hate to be the naysayer on this, the NVDA group, the question is:  What point?

You can ask and advocate for testing with NVDA, and I think that would be a fine thing to advocate for, but no company is obligated to test specifically with NVDA, or specifically with JAWS, or specifically with Narrator.  Most companies are going to pick one, and only one, screen reader to test with, and be lucky if they have individuals truly competent with a screen reader if they're not a large enterprise (Cisco is, so they should have competent screen reader testers).

But I would not be surprised if even screen reader testing is now largely automated like a lot of other testing is, and "success" dictated by whether analysis of the speech logs has what they expected to be in them actually be in them.

The use of human testers (much like humans that do almost any sort of job) has been on the decrease even when I was still working in software development in the 1990s.  And more's the pity, because as Quentin recently pointed out on this very group, what humans actually do when faced with a given novel situation is very often very much at odds with what the developers presumed they would do and should do.  Determining how an actual person interacts with your software, including how they do things you never, ever thought anyone would do, is at the very heart of through testing.  And it happens far too little.

But I would never hold my breath that any company is doing accessibility testing with two screen readers, let alone three (or more).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel